Speculation: 2023-2024 General Lightning Discussion - Thread title week to week on IR

[Hockeyville USA]

Personally, I’d really like to see the Lightning use the cap room, which is significant, to facilitate a couple deals in the west and accumulate draft capital and or prospect. I don’t think this team is going on a run, but they are not washed either. The additional assets could really benefit the organization’s ability to build its roster and acquire deadline assets when the team is performing at a higher level and perhaps has a cheap top 6 forward like Howard to augment the roster.

I really think the inability of-the second line to do anything without Hagel holds this team back. Hagel with Point and Kuch is one of the best lines in hockey. But Cirelli Stammer Paul just doesn’t work.

As long as Dylan Duke signs, he's a nice middle 6 option. A mix of Killorn and Paul, very good net front guy on the PP, scores a lot of dirty goals, can play with more talented linemates.

 

[Byrddog]

Personally, I’d really like to see the Lightning use the cap room, which is significant, to facilitate a couple deals in the west and accumulate draft capital and or prospect. I don’t think this team is going on a run, but they are not washed either. The additional assets could really benefit the organization’s ability to build its roster and acquire deadline assets when the team is performing at a higher level and perhaps has a cheap top 6 forward like Howard to augment the roster.

I really think the inability of-the second line to do anything without Hagel holds this team back. Hagel with Point and Kuch is one of the best lines in hockey. But Cirelli Stammer Paul just doesn’t work.

Sorry but you are wrong about one thing. Coop moved Hagel down to the 2nd line and he rolled off 19 games without a goal. The problem with the 2nd line has been Cirelli for two years now.

But Hagel does better with Kuch so might as well just give up getting much punch from the 2nd.

 

[Lightning1995]

Sorry but you are wrong about one thing. Coop moved Hagel down to the 2nd line and he rolled off 19 games without a goal. The problem with the 2nd line has been Cirelli for two years now.

But Hagel does better with Kuch so might as well just give up getting much punch from the 2nd.

That’s fair, the 2nd line just looks better with Hagel….so does the first though, lol

 

[JTBF81]

The problem with the 2nd line has not just been Cirelli, but I see it's the president of the Anti-Cirelli fan club(and really, the anti-Lightning fan club) posting that, so not surprised. Byrd must've been seething when they went b2b, as all those GM decisions he thought were terrible led to such success.

 

[Byrddog]

That’s fair, the 2nd line just looks better with Hagel….so does the first though, lol

It frustrates me that Hagel is so ineffective off the top line. That’s why I’m not a big fan of him now. The guy had the same skills and he gets his share of dirty goals on the top line, why he can not do that with the 2nd is worrisome. I mean Palat caught hell because without Kuch he was the same way. I mean yeah Palat , Kuch and Johnson played a long time together but these guys should do better apart. Honestly Johnson did when Coop put Cirelli in the 2C Johnson still scored with less ice time . The problem then become Johnny was overpaid just as Cirelli will be next year. JBB somehow needs to bring in a couple guys to start this turning around. How he’s gonna do that is the problem.

 

[Hockeyville USA]

It frustrates me that Hagel is so ineffective off the top line. That’s why I’m not a big fan of him now. The guy had the same skills and he gets his share of dirty goals on the top line, why he can not do that with the 2nd is worrisome. I mean Palat caught hell because without Kuch he was the same way. I mean yeah Palat , Kuch and Johnson played a long time together but these guys should do better apart. Honestly Johnson did when Coop put Cirelli in the 2C Johnson still scored with less ice time . The problem then become Johnny was overpaid just as Cirelli will be next year. JBB somehow needs to bring in a couple guys to start this turning around. How he’s gonna do that is the problem.

They'll bring in a couple cheap veterans (hopefully work out better than Sheary) and guys like Goncalves will be pushing for full time roster spots soon. Howard and Duke on the way in the coming years, maybe Huuhtanen too. The team will fall off a cliff in the near future, but as long as you adjust expectations to be more reasonable, there will still be fun things to watch with the Lightning.

 

[DFC]

Sorry but you are wrong about one thing. Coop moved Hagel down to the 2nd line and he rolled off 19 games without a goal. The problem with the 2nd line has been Cirelli for two years now.

But Hagel does better with Kuch so might as well just give up getting much punch from the 2nd.

It's a historical problem at this point. We really never have more than one line putting up goals. Maybe for a few months every three or four years.

 

[OffBy1]

Coop moved Hagel down to the 2nd line and he rolled off 19 games without a goal.

It frustrates me that Hagel is so ineffective off the top line.... The guy had the same skills and he gets his share of dirty goals on the top line, why he can not do that with the 2nd is worrisome.

So according to you Hagel is ineffective on both the 1st and 2nd line, yet he has 19 goals and 48 points in 53 games and is in the small group of forwards on the team in the positive.

Yeah were disappointed in him last year when he had a career year offensively.

I guess nothing is certain in the life but death, taxes and Hagel disappointing.

 

[Byrddog]

It's a historical problem at this point. We really never have more than line putting up goals. Maybe for a few months every three or four years.

I get what you’re saying, but for most of the last 10 years the Bolts have had depth scoring. If the top line had a down night the remaining lines or the defense picked up the slack. It started to struggle last year after the AS break . Now unless Kuch has 3 or 4 point night they struggle. They are not going to win 2-0 or 2-1 very often now. And yes all teams go thru the same cycles. One thing we suffer with is the cap invested in the core that has been kept. And I have seen your responses that those guys deserved to be paid after two cups well that is true as well but it’s my opinion that JBB has kept one too many of the huge contracts and kept a couple guys that have negatively impacted balancing the roster. Cirelli being overpaid for his 3C skills is one the manner in which he handled Sergi and Cernak’s contracts cost a couple mil as well. Of course the flat Cap influenced what he could do but he did hisself no favors taking Bettmans projections for the cap increase. Bettman has always painted a blue sky about the increases nd missed or often than not. I’m counting on more than a 2 mil increase out of the 4 he has projected this year. The last two years he had bold projections that had to be walked back , and honestly the cap should have went down each of the last three years. Attendance has yet to come close to the pre pandemic and looks like it is going to be short again this season League wide. And this includes additional seats from the Seattle expansion. So in short it has put warm bodies on the roster in order to be cap compliant. And while one can be optimistic about young guys in the system that talent pool has suffered from where he has been picking. And those that have showed promise have been moved to support the cup runs.

I would like to see the cap go up 4 mil and move Cirelli and see what he could get from the market .

 

[These Are The Days]

I was thinking about it at work today. Those wrestling avatars are gonna be freaking sweet

 

[Byrddog]

So according to you Hagel is ineffective on both the 1st and 2nd line, yet he has 19 goals and 48 points in 53 games and is in the small group of forwards on the team in the positive.

Yeah were disappointed in him last year when he had a career year offensively.

I guess nothing is certain in the life but death, taxes and Hagel disappointing.

I have watched this game dang near 50 years. And Hagels inability to produce outside playing with Kuch and Point is concerning. And if you don’t think a 19 game goalless streak on the 2nd line is a problem then there’s not much left to say. As to career years did we not just experience a trade of 5 pieces to get a guy that had a career year and now can’t even be mildly productive on the 3rd line. You speak as if Hagel is a ppg guy , well so far he has not proven he can do that. He is hot and cold and yes the past few games he has been hot. He could be more valuable as a 20 goal 50 point player on the 2nd line at 5 mil per so they could afford another 5 mil guy to do the same on the Point Kuch line or put Stammer up there and have a 3.5 mil guy on the other wing with Hagel on the 2nd. That was the hopes for ABB but that guy has been a miserable failure.

But as long as Hagel is 1st line gets 25g 60 points he will not draw any heat until Kuch or Point is hurt and his points just stop.

 

[Bartleby]

I have watched this game dang near 50 years. And Hagels inability to produce outside playing with Kuch and Point is concerning. And if you don’t think a 19 game goalless streak on the 2nd line is a problem then there’s not much left to say. As to career years did we not just experience a trade of 5 pieces to get a guy that had a career year and now can’t even be mildly productive on the 3rd line. You speak as if Hagel is a ppg guy , well so far he has not proven he can do that. He is hot and cold and yes the past few games he has been hot. He could be more valuable as a 20 goal 50 point player on the 2nd line at 5 mil per so they could afford another 5 mil guy to do the same on the Point Kuch line or put Stammer up there and have a 3.5 mil guy on the other wing with Hagel on the 2nd. That was the hopes for ABB but that guy has been a miserable failure.

But as long as Hagel is 1st line gets 25g 60 points he will not draw any heat until Kuch or Point is hurt and his points just stop.

Nor should he draw heat. Players need other players who can produce around them. Look at Mat Barzal. Comes out his rookie year and plays with John Tavares at his peak and scores 85 pts and wins the Calder. JT leaves, the Isles don't bring in anyone who can replace his production and Barzal never cracks 62 pts again until this year when the Isles finally went out and got Horvat and all of a sudden Barzal is back on track for a 90 plus point season. Did Barzal just all of a sudden suck for 5 years? No, he had no one to play with. Hagel has generally been great for us and more than we could have hoped for but he can't do it alone.

 

[ccman68]

It frustrates me that Hagel is so ineffective off the top line. That’s why I’m not a big fan of him now.

here’s the even strength points leaders for the year. this is who we’re now complaining about? the real problems with our attack are stamkos being a powerplay merchant, cirelli’s lack of offensive skill and having to play nick paul in the top 6. and don’t get me started on the bottom six

 

[HoseEmDown]

The problem with the scoring is Stamkos. 10 even strength goals and only 20 even strength points. 8.5M and your not getting the production outside of the PP. He can't carry a line and he's barely a secondary piece on his line. BriseBois is doing the right thing by not signing this guy yet. He needs to either step up and show his worth or be willing to take a serious discount because he's gonna fall off hard cause we've already been watching it.

 

[OffBy1]

I have watched this game dang near 50 years. And Hagels inability to produce outside playing with Kuch and Point is concerning. And if you don’t think a 19 game goalless streak on the 2nd line is a problem then there’s not much left to say. As to career years did we not just experience a trade of 5 pieces to get a guy that had a career year and now can’t even be mildly productive on the 3rd line. You speak as if Hagel is a ppg guy , well so far he has not proven he can do that. He is hot and cold and yes the past few games he has been hot. He could be more valuable as a 20 goal 50 point player on the 2nd line at 5 mil per so they could afford another 5 mil guy to do the same on the Point Kuch line or put Stammer up there and have a 3.5 mil guy on the other wing with Hagel on the 2nd. That was the hopes for ABB but that guy has been a miserable failure.

But as long as Hagel is 1st line gets 25g 60 points he will not draw any heat until Kuch or Point is hurt and his points just stop.

It's not my perception, he is almost a ppg player through 53 games this season - and that's with that 19 game goalless streak you cling to. And that's also with little time on the power play and spending most of the year on the second line. Stamkos has played more games than Hagel on the top line and Paul has gotten games there as well. Hagel has been carrying the second line lately.

You act like he needs to be on the top to line produce when he actually makes the top line better. He makes it better than Stamkos, who has gotten more than half his points on the PP this year. Hagel has 6 points from the PP.

Your stubborn criticism of him is misplaced.

 

[Outl4w]

Hagel is by far better than Jeannot and Sheary. Paul has been solid for contract and is okay in the top 6 , but ideally is on a 3rd line. Cireilli is good at two way hockey amd better suited on the third line. Ideally cirelli Paul, and Jeannot could be a third line provide scoring and toughness. Unfortunately we don't have two other forwards capable of playing in the 6 with kucherov, Stamkos, point, and Hagel.

 

[Hockeyville USA]

Hagel is by far better than Jeannot and Sheary. Paul has been solid for contract and is okay in the top 6 , but ideally is on a 3rd line. Cireilli is good at two way hockey amd better suited on the third line. Ideally cirelli Paul, and Jeannot could be a third line provide scoring and toughness. Unfortunately we don't have two other forwards capable of playing in the 6 with kucherov, Stamkos, point, and Hagel.

That's why some of the draft misses hurt: not being able to fill your 2nd line optimally. Would be nice to have Hintz, DeBrincat, Robert Thomas, Jason Robertson, etc

 

[Byrddog]

It's not my perception, he is almost a ppg player through 53 games this season - and that's with that 19 game goalless streak you cling to. And that's also with little time on the power play and spending most of the year on the second line. Stamkos has played more games than Hagel on the top line and Paul has gotten games there as well. Hagel has been carrying the second line lately.

You act like he needs to be on the top to line produce when he actually makes the top line better. He makes it better than Stamkos, who has gotten more than half his points on the PP this year. Hagel has 6 points from the PP.

Your stubborn criticism of him is misplaced.

I don’t act like he needs to be on the top line here , the fact is has must be to score. Gain I point out that when Coop moved him down to the 2nd line he went 19 games without a goal that’s 1/4 of a season. If memory serves he only had 4 assts in that period as well I would have to go look that up again but it’s close if not correct.

Now let’s decide what is a point per game guy worth in todays cap constraints? But before that consider the articleHockey news that ppg players are becoming common place. Last season there were 30 guys over a point per thus far this season with players over 30 games I counted 36 over a point per game. So is it common place???? Well I don’t know if that is 100% true because there are teams that have no ppg guys and other teams having two or three. How is salary broken down and the impact on the rest of the team is a thing. Now this is assuming Hagel makes it to the ppg level looking at his body of work he has been a complementary player. I have had many times over the years seeing Point, Kuch or Stammer just taking the team on their back to wins. I have not felt that way once with Hagel. When it comes to expectations guys it’s contracts 6 mil or more per must perform in all situations. Now with that said other than Kuch no one else has met expectations. This is not to say every player has to have a career year each year and there’s plenty of criticism to spread out on this team. Currently Stammer has more points that Hagel yet there are those who are ready to move on from him if he does not take a drastic haircut on salary. Killer was allowed to walk because he got 5 mil????? The main focus was a youth movement which in this case should not apply. For three years all the clamoring about ABB was all over this board, I was on an island being the only one that saw he was not a nhl player. While Hagel if a NHL guy the homerism is high on him . I think he will settle out at 20 goals 50 points long term worth 4 to 4.5 mil. He could be paid 5 if it were not for other overpayments on the roster.

Here’s the thing somehow the roster has to be upgraded or lose the best years of Point, Kuch and Vasy otherwise what’s the sense of having them? It’s pretty common to o see upper level talent become disgruntled and we could see a couple pissed off Russians if the roster does not get better. Righ now we have 3 gups capable to pot 40 goals any given season and gave 100 points each. But scoring below them and Hagel is lethargic. So yes I have higher expectations of Hagel we all should.

It's not my perception, he is almost a ppg player through 53 games this season - and that's with that 19 game goalless streak you cling to. And that's also with little time on the power play and spending most of the year on the second line. Stamkos has played more games than Hagel on the top line and Paul has gotten games there as well. Hagel has been carrying the second line lately.

You act like he needs to be on the top to line produce when he actually makes the top line better. He makes it better than Stamkos, who has gotten more than half his points on the PP this year. Hagel has 6 points from the PP.

Your stubborn criticism of him is misplaced.

I don’t act like he needs to be on the top line here , the fact is has must be to score. I point out that when Coop moved him down to the 2nd line he went 19 games without a goal that’s 1/4 of a season. If memory serves he only had 4 assts in that period as well I would have to go look that up again but it’s close if not correct.

Now let’s decide what is a point per game guy worth in todays cap constraints? But before that consider the articleHockey news that ppg players are becoming common place. Last season there were 30 guys over a point per thus far this season with players over 30 games I counted 36 over a point per game. So is it common place???? Well I don’t know if that is

 

[Rschmitz]

Geesh, of all the problems this team has why are we sttiiilllll talking about Hagel? He’s one of the most effective players I’ve ever seen in any role you give him.

We need help on the bottom 6. Motte, Glendening, and Ace are fine; let’s add Jeannot to that group, but then we have a carousel of ineffective fill ins. We need 1-2 guys who are real difference makers. There are guys out there, and if Fleury shows some consistency our LHD situation could be the second biggest hole on the team and not a priority

 

[Felonious Python]

TB is all over this. Hanifin, Tanev, Barabanov, Walker, Lyubushkin, Savard, and Barrie.

 

[Bartleby]

Hard as it is to hear, it would be tough to argue that there isn't a lot of truth in what they are saying based on performance to date? From 10:00 to 16:00.

https://thehockeynews.com/podcast/pre-game-show-bruins-showing-out-still-top-contenders-plus-nhl-should-he-stay-or-should-he-go-kraken-and-more

 

[These Are The Days]

I am not in favor of another "all in" trade. The window is not even close to shut. If Huuhtanen, Howard, Gauthier, Duke are even halfway decent we are good even 2 or 3 years from now. Raddysh I can't tell. I see the light coming on with him being Hedman's long term partner. That will help tremendously and not put so much onus on needing a defensive prospect. But JFBB needs to leave it alone. Roll with what we have and try to win with it. And we likely won't

And if we miss the playoffs it's still all good. This roster has failed on so many levels that I can't even blame coaching or JFBB anymore. For all the crap we give for our new zone coverage that does not work well, we can point out to the development of Raddysh that I mentioned a few sentences back. A player very seldom succeeds in spite of colossal coaching failure. Least of all a guy who is like 27 and may as well be a rookie. We just can't win with so many forwards playing like they just won the lottery and with Vasilevskiy playing like he fell off a cliff.

You gotta say "there's always next year"

 

[Felonious Python]

I am not in favor of another "all in" trade. Window is not even close to shut. If Huuhtanen, Howard, Gauthier, Duke are even halfway decent we are good even 2 or 3 years from now. Raddysh I can't tell. I see the light coming on with him being Hedman's long term partner. That will help tremendously and not put so much onus on needing a defensive prospect. But JFBB needs to leave it alone. Roll with what we have and try to win with it. And we likely won't

And if we miss the playoffs it's still all good

I feel like we've got to get some term (or will sign for that).

A smaller consideration is being able to withstand some expansion drafts over the next few years. Maybe like Utah in 2025 and Atlanta in 2027. We're going to have to expose some good players again.

 

[JFleegs]

I feel like we've got to get some term (or will sign for that).

A smaller consideration is being able to withstand some expansion drafts over the next few years. Maybe like Utah in 2025 and Atlanta in 2027. We're going to have to expose some good players again.

Should only be one expansion as Arizona should be moved to one of those places.

 

[Master P]

I was thinking about it at work today. Those wrestling avatars are gonna be freaking sweet

Would be very fitting for everyone to agree on wrestling avatars only to then miss the playoffs.