2023-2024 EPL Season

[Wee Baby Seamus]

(two players who have never been capped by their national team get minutes because of injuries)

this is Leicester 2015-16

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

I just wanna add, not trolling, that even if we accept that being a "kid" hinges more on senior experience than on age (a silly take, IMO, but let's say for thought experiments sake), Quansah and Bradley are the only two who have gotten consistent minutes for Liverpool? Everyone else in the side except for Harvey Elliott (who I would happily call a youngster even tho he played almost every game last year, funny how that works) is a full fledged international.

I have no desire to do this, but I reckon that if you were to put the minutes played and age of every PL team on a curve, Liverpool's would probably be basically the median. That squad is a pretty balanced mix of experience, guys entering primes, and youth.

 

[Savant]

I just wanna add, not trolling, that even if we accept that being a "kid" hinges more on senior experience than on age (a silly take, IMO, but let's say for thought experiments sake), Quansah and Bradley are the only two who have gotten consistent minutes for Liverpool? Everyone else in the side is a full fledged international.

That’s two more than the other teams in the race. And it’s not a silly argument . A season in League One/League Two is not the same as multiple seasons in Ligue 1; seasons in the PL, etc.

Bradley and Quandab have made huge leaps up in competition, and that has been facilitated by Virgil holding the back line together. There’s been injuries and absences all over the pitch all season. Virgil is the only constant and he has been consistently exceptional

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

I feel like we also shouldn't pretend they've played an insane amount? Rico Lewis (that's right, you're not the only team in the title race with a youth academy!) has played more minutes this season than Conor Bradley.

They've been doing very well! As you'd hope prospects would do when asked to step up a level! But this VVD stuff is veering into "CR7 willed Portugal to win the Euros" territory.

Also I don't see how Gusto and Colwill having been first division quality younger negates their current youth, but who the f*** knows what anything means at this point. Cole Palmer played fewer minutes last year than Bradley has this year, but I guess because they were at City he's a seasoned vet.

 

[KJS14]

You mentioned metrics love Saliba, post them.I already did post mine a while back, use the search function.

Firstly, I said the metrics support Saliba being a better defender/passer this year. I actually watch Arsenal play every week, and I catch a good amount of the Liverpool games. Comparing defensive statistics (especially counting ones) doesn't always draw meaningful conclusions.

Player Comparison: Gabriel Dos Santos vs. Virgil van Dijk vs. William Saliba | FBref.com

Player Comparison: Gabriel Dos Santos vs. Virgil van Dijk vs. William Saliba

fbref.com

https://www.squawka.com/en/comparison-matrix/?compare=oIcY-XlOBW53Bjn3BFzcd

Passing Cmp% - all very similar, Saliba slightly ahead. VVD has better long ball distribution, but that really comes down to tactics with him having a higher volume of long balls.

Tackle% - again all very similar, Saliba slightly ahead.
Ariel Duels% - VVD better than Saliba and Gabriel.
Dribbled Past - VVD 2 times, Saliba 2 times, Gabriel 3 times.

VVD's counting stats (as opposed to %s) look better, likely because he doesn't have another top 3 CB paired next to him and Arsenal control the ball more than Liverpool.

William Saliba | Arsenal | xG | Shot Map | Goal stats | Understat.com

William Saliba football stats. xG, shot map, match history. Minutes, goals and assits by club, position, situation.

understat.com

xG Buildup/xG Chain - pretty much identical between Saliba and VVD

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

In terms of league minutes played, Quansah and Bradley are 21st and 22nd for Liverpool this season. Quansah has played around 6 90s, Bradley 5. 21.9% and 17.7% of available minutes (the percentage is actually lower, but I just did 28x90 and didn't bother with stoppage time when building the denominator).

Liverpool's first XI, based on minutes played, has an average of 39.2 caps, a number brought down by Gomez over Robertson and by France's depth at CB limiting Konate's.

 

[Savant]

I feel like we also shouldn't pretend they've played an insane amount? Rico Lewis (that's right, you're not the only team in the title race with a youth academy!) has played more minutes this season than Conor Bradley.

They've been doing very well! As you'd hope prospects would do when asked to step up a level! But this VVD stuff is veering into "CR7 willed Portugal to win the Euros" territory.

Also I don't see how Gusto and Colwill having been first division quality younger negates their current youth, but who the f*** knows what anything means at this point. Cole Palmer played fewer minutes last year than Bradley has this year, but I guess because they were at City he's a seasoned vet.

Gusto and Colwill having first division experience doesn’t negate their youth at all, and no one is saying it does. The difference is when people try to be like “oh the LFC isn’t actually that young because of the dates on the birth certificates” it’s completely ignoring that the Chelsea players (for example) are in fact much more experienced, came from much higher transfer fees, and have not had as high a jump up in competition. Where are the lies here?

Also not really sure what Rico Lewis; whose minutes has disappeared as City have gotten healthier has to do with it. Also not sure where the CR7 comparison is coming from. These are very bad comparisons. Palmer is another one with PL and UCL experience in the past. The LFC players did not have that luxury

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

People are saying LFC isn't that young because their first XI is entirely capped internationals and the "kids" we don't stop hearing about have actually not played that much!

 

[luiginb]

Firstly, I said the metrics support Saliba being a better defender/passer this year.

And yet you've provided metrics that don't support that Saliba is a better defender. Not sure what Gabriel had to do with our conversation (I love Gabriel)

I'll give you passer, as that's what Saliba is, a short pass merchant who's hard to dribble by 1vs1 because of his size/speed combo, but who rarely tackles but tries to close attackers down, and who wins about half of his headers, although he's 1.93m. Nothing that special though about him, regardless what Arsenal/France fans think. And he's got nowhere near the presence of a generational center back like van Dijk.

 

[Evilo]

Saliba's movement means he doesn't have to tackle much. That's football 101 that he's mastering to perfection.
If you think Saliba isn't special you need to get your eyes checked.

 

[KJS14]

Oh I didn't realize he doesn't have to tackle much. Surely we have to upgrade on Saliba to a guy that tackles more often so that we can have the best defense in the league... oh wait.

 

[Savant]

People are saying LFC isn't that young because their first XI is entirely capped internationals and the "kids" we don't stop hearing about have actually not played that much!

But when they’ve played they’ve had a very tangible impact. They are not passengers. They are trusted in big moments, they’ve gotten on the score sheet, hell I would have much rather have seen Jayden Danns than Cody Gakpo today. LFC have played them because they’ve had no choice, and this is still a team that was challenging on three fronts until a couple of hours ago. Virgil is the biggest reason LFC have not crumbled this season. You say the kids haven’t played that much; what would you quantify playing as a lot then? Which other team is giving that kind of burn out to internally produced youth? And having a successful season while doing so?

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

But when they’ve played they’ve had a very tangible impact. They are not passengers. They are trusted in big moments, they’ve gotten on the score sheet, hell I would have much rather have seen Jayden Danns than Cody Gakpo today. LFC have played them because they’ve had no choice, and this is still a team that was challenging on three fronts until a couple of hours ago. Virgil is the biggest reason LFC have not crumbled this season. You say the kids haven’t played that much; what would you quantify playing as a lot then? Which other team is giving that kind of burn out to internally produced youth? And having a successful season while doing so?

The goalposts have ended up about halfway across town. If we're gonna have to endure hours and hours of "Klopp and Kids" narrative, I feel like the bar for "Klopp is winning the league with kids" is a helluva lot higher than two players who between them have played just over 1000 minutes.

You say about Rico Lewis, "oh but his minutes declined when players came back from injury." Are you earnestly trying to suggest that Bradley and Quansah will maintain major spots when Trent, Robertson, and Konate are fit? Or does the "it's just because of injury" caveat only operate to prevent a "Pep and Kids" narrative?

It's lovely that a pair of youth players have entered the lineup and succeeded (even if they are at an age where, if they're gonna make it, you'd hope they'd be beginning to). But is it not enough to say that Klopp has done a very very good job rebuilding this team and leave it at that? We have to pretend the demographics of the club are different than they are? I actually don't care which other teams are/are not doing it, it's not relevant! There's no "omg look at what he's doing with the kids" narrative going on about those teams.

The irony of it is that the biggest youth success story for Liverpool this year is probably Curtis Jones, who has gone up a major step this season, but somehow doesn't fit your definition of a youth because he had the audacity to be better younger than some of his peers.

 

[JPBolts]

They wouldn’t want a top 3 side. Too expensive, though some of them likely have debt and would look for a portioned buyout if we were honest. Say, they could buy 30-35 percent of one. Then use that relationship for both.

Yeah, that seems like the most likely. Though looking through it, quite a few of the sides outside the Portuguese big three are already linked up with external investment / other clubs.

Braga - QSI (PSG owners) have a minority stake
Vitoria - V Sports (Villa owners) have a minority stake
Boavista - Gerard Lopez (also owns Bordeaux)
Famalicao - Idan Ofer (also has a minority stake in Atletico Madrid) & heavy links with Jorge Mendes
Rio Ave - Evangelos Marinakis (also owns Nottingham Forest and Olympiacos)
Casa Pia - Robert Platek (also has a stake in Spezia)
Estoril - David Blitzer (has stake in Crystal Palace among other clubs).

 

[Chimaera]

That’s interesting.

 

[Savant]

The goalposts have ended up about halfway across town. If we're gonna have to endure hours and hours of "Klopp and Kids" narrative, I feel like the bar for "Klopp is winning the league with kids" is a helluva lot higher than two players who between them have played just over 1000 minutes.

If the goal posts have moved, that’s just where you’ve taken them. The margins for winning the league is so high, those 1000 minutes are incredibly important. It’s not a case of “oh it’s only 1000 minutes” . Those are critical, and again Virgil holding the team together while LFC has had to integrate youth from the academy is the biggest reason that LFC are where they are. It’s a very big deal.

You say about Rico Lewis, "oh but his minutes declined when players came back from injury." Are you earnestly trying to suggest that Bradley and Quansah will maintain major spots when Trent, Robertson, and Konate are fit? Or does the "it's just because of injury" caveat only operate to prevent a "Pep and Kids" narrative?

Yes, I think Bradley and Quansah are still going to get burn when those guys are healthy. Especially in the Europa League. Longer term, Bradley could be the reason that Trent is finally able to move into midfield as well. Quansah may be third choice CB next year, if he isn’t considered that already. Before the season started, that was not on anyone’s radar. Now these are core players. If anything, I don’t think you would see LFC go apeshit in the transfer market to push guys like this down the depth chart.

It's lovely that a pair of youth players have entered the lineup and succeeded (even if they are at an age where, if they're gonna make it, you'd hope they'd be beginning to). But is it not enough to say that Klopp has done a very very good job rebuilding this team and leave it at that? We have to pretend the demographics of the club are different than they are? I actually don't care which other teams are/are not doing it, it's not relevant! There's no "omg look at what he's doing with the kids" narrative going on about those teams.

The irony of it is that the biggest youth success story for Liverpool this year is probably Curtis Jones, who has gone up a major step this season, but somehow doesn't fit your definition of a youth because he had the audacity to be better younger than some of his peers.

Only reason I haven’t mentioned Jones is because he’s been injured most of the season. Talked about him plenty when he was playing. Also again wanted to focus on people who were new to the team this season. We can talk about Harvey Elliott too who has been incredible this season as well too and he’s only 20 year old himself. Jones and Elliott both should be in the England squad this summer. No one is ignoring those guys. Would be happy to talk about them. Gravenberch is still 21. Stefan Bajcetic might have a higher ceiling than all of those guys but he’s been injured. And who has stepped up with those guys injured? Bobby Clark and James McConnell who nobody knew before the season started and came from the academy.

So yeah I don’t think you know what my definition is. At the start I said it’s not about the date on the birth certificate; it’s about top league experience so I tried sticking to that. Plenty of examples across the roster though. So yeah, he’s doing it with kids. Klopp’s man management and Virgil’s stability and consistent top performances are the reasons why. The leadership has been much better this season

 

[robertmac43]

Looks like luton is jumping up to safety due to this.

 

[luiginb]

 

[Chimaera]

Luton staying up would be good for the EPL (in the sense that they're an interesting story...) but if Forest go down, with NO penalty on City... it's a giant crock of shit.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

Looks like luton is jumping up to safety due to this.

So on what basis do they get a four point deduction versus Everton’s six if it’s the same transgression?

I’m pulling so hard for Everton to get that second deduction too lol. When’s that one coming?

 

[hatterson]

So on what basis do they get a four point deduction versus Everton’s six if it’s the same transgression?

I'd assume size of the loss.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

The truth is Forest can really only blame themselves. They could have sold Johnson earlier, but wanted more money and waited until past the PSR period. That coke-addled Greek owner really hoisted on his own petard here.

 

[Chimaera]

Sure. Most of these losses are self inflicted.

But spin the wheel of justice.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Difference between City and those clubs probably is that City have the wherewithal and business smarts to hire the best set of commercial lawyers and accountants possible to set up their structure while those clubs are run by buffoons.

 

[Chimaera]

There's also a business implication to keep inflating the numbers, keep the top talent, manager and 'story' here in the EPL. Everton getting smacked? Eh who cares. Forest? Relegate them, whoopy doo.

City brings ratings, numbers and 'sponsors' (though those are 1000% inflated).

I have no knowledge, but I will not be shocked when some of the regulators / administrators are also on the take.

These other clubs have money for lawyers. But they turned over their books saying they were breaking the regulations. City turned over books saying they're squeaky clean. The only reason there's any suggestions of malfeasance is the actual books were leaked.