GDT: 2022-23 season game 79 LA Kings vs Vegas Golden Knights @7:00pm 4/6/23

[Herby]

To take a step further, look at the top 5 from 2021 - 2016....in general drafting top 5, means...you are a bad team, there are FEW exceptions to this,

2016
Matthews - TOR - Previous season 29-42-11
Laine - WPG - Previous season 35-39-8
Dubois - CBJ - Previous season 34-40-8
Pulijarvi - EDM - Previous Season 31-43-8
Juolevi - VAN - Previous Season 31-38-13

2017
Hischier - NJ - 28-40-14
Patrick - PHI - 39-33-10
Heiskanen - DAL - 34-37-11
Makar - COL - 22-56-4
Petersson - VAN - 30-43-9

2018

I can actually keep doing this, but just the 1st two drafts, ONE team over .500......picked in the top 5.....not sure how you can say that top picks dont go on bad teams....

Unless you are just saying anyone in the 1st round etc.

But the Kings the year before and after taking Byfield were a bad team too. Yet they went unconventional and didn't have him in the NHL, right?

Obviously most Top 5 picks are entering into bad teams, that is true, but it was no different with the Kings, so why did they take a different route?

Clarke would be entering a good team, but one where he is one of the 6 best d-man. That is not much different from many of the situations I listed, including Makar, McAvoy, the Hughes brothers, Byram. How is it these teams are able to find room and not feel the need to have the players "pay their dues" in the AHL?

To me, it just seems like there are proven paths to successfully develop certain types of players, and with all of the Kings 1st round picks under Blake (with the exception of Vilardi) they did things that other NHL teams would not have done, and the results have been pretty disappointing with most of those players.

Everyone has their ideas or excuses. The Byfield decision was blamed on Covid and the OHL shutting down (even though sending him to the OHL would have been unorthodox too), the Turcotte one has been blamed on everything from Covid to Tony Granato to Turcotte himself. The Clarke one has been blamed on having no room on the roster (most teams don't hold back a prospect like Clarke to roster Edler and Walker). The overcompensating for past mistakes thing by not rushing guys I don't really buy, because you had guys pulled from levels they hadn't dominated at and still had room to grow (Turcotte, Bjornfot, Kupari) to place them in the AHL as teenagers, causing harm to each players long-term ceiling. There was certainly no patience or abundance of caution when it came to the development choices on Turcotte, Bjornfot and Kupari

People can give all their reasons for defending the decisions or excusing them, but it just all gets back to the Kings AHL usage, which is extremely abnormal compared to other teams. If you want to argue that it's the right moves as SN has done, that is your opinion, but the way the Kings develop 1st round picks is certainly against the grain.

Wasting your time Herby. It's a valiant effort on your behalf. But any questioning of Blake (let alone criticism) is simply not allowed by that one. Pure dogma.

You can give Blake credit, he made some great trades and FA signings

 

[Schrute farms]

You can give Blake credit, he made some great trades and FA signings

I definitely have given Blake credit. He's actually done well overall. Especially considering his limited experience. Up until the past year, i've reluctantly said he's done fantastic considering everything and way beyond my expectations.

At the same time, there are problematic areas that deserve criticism -- items that he's allowed to continue (rather than learning from mistakes and adjusting/fixing).

 

[Herby]

I definitely have given Blake credit. He's actually done well overall. Especially considering his limited experience. Up until the past year, i've reluctantly said he's done fantastic considering everything and way beyond my expectations.

At the same time, there are problematic areas that deserve criticism -- items that he's allowed to continue (rather than learning from mistakes and adjusting/fixing).

Sorry I hit send without finishing my post.

You can give him credit for the good things, you can even make an argument that you think his unorthodox development decisions will end up being fine. I just struggle how anyone can look at how the Kings handle prospects and think it’s not much much different than how just about everyone else does.

Look at the number of AHL games played by teenagers under Blake.

 

[Schrute farms]

Sorry I hit send without finishing my post.

You can give him credit for the good things, you can even make an argument that you think his unorthodox development decisions will end up being fine. I just struggle how anyone can look at how the Kings handle prospects and think it’s not much much different than how just about everyone else does.

Look at the number of AHL games played by teenagers under Blake.

lol -- i thought that was an odd comment based on your previous posts. I should have kept drinking my morning coffee and let things simmer a bit before responding.

BTW -- i agree 100% with you. I think this is the whole problem with the going for it too early and getting black hole positioning. In the end looking back, we very well could seriously regret not tanking for another 1-2 more years, giving young guys prime playing time and acquiring another top 5 pick (or two).

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

But the Kings the year before and after taking Byfield were a bad team too. Yet they went unconventional and didn't have him in the NHL, right?

Obviously most Top 5 picks are entering into bad teams, that is true, but it was no different with the Kings, so why did they take a different route?

Clarke would be entering a good team, but one where he is one of the 6 best d-man. That is not much different from many of the situations I listed, including Makar, McAvoy, the Hughes brothers, Byram. How is it these teams are able to find room and not feel the need to have the players "pay their dues" in the AHL?

To me, it just seems like there are proven paths to successfully develop certain types of players, and with all of the Kings 1st round picks under Blake (with the exception of Vilardi) they did things that other NHL teams would not have done, and the results have been pretty disappointing with most of those players.

Everyone has their ideas or excuses. The Byfield decision was blamed on Covid and the OHL shutting down (even though sending him to the OHL would have been unorthodox too), the Turcotte one has been blamed on everything from Covid to Tony Granato to Turcotte himself. The Clarke one has been blamed on having no room on the roster (most teams don't hold back a prospect like Clarke to roster Edler and Walker). The overcompensating for past mistakes thing by not rushing guys I don't really buy, because you had guys pulled from levels they hadn't dominated at and still had room to grow (Turcotte, Bjornfot, Kupari) to place them in the AHL as teenagers, causing harm to each players long-term ceiling. There was certainly no patience or abundance of caution when it came to the development choices on Turcotte, Bjornfot and Kupari

People can give all their reasons for defending the decisions or excusing them, but it just all gets back to the Kings AHL usage, which is extremely abnormal compared to other teams. If you want to argue that it's the right moves as SN has done, that is your opinion, but the way the Kings develop 1st round picks is certainly against the grain.



You can give Blake credit, he made some great trades and FA signings

Solid post, and I got too much going on to accurately reply, but yes, you are right, LA drafting Byfield #2, puts him on a bad team, I think the caveat to that, is, they drafted him KNOWING he was a project....I believe they signed Danault that same year....knowing it would take Byfield some time to grow into the player they think he could be etc....

Clarke...I think he's good, but he had some issues playing right away, I think they made the right decision this year with him....

As far as Kupari and Bjornfoot, again, I need to research it, but were they not playing against men in Europe? That's different than playing juniors etc, different atmosphere, different everything, and one can even argue that it hurt Bjornfoot pulling up too soon to the NHL.....

 

[Herby]

You can think they made the right decision with Clarke, you also thought they made the right ones with Byfield and Turcotte, but that is your right to an opinion. I am just saying that most NHL teams would have either traded Walker and/or not brought back Edler to make room for a guy like Clarke, rather than have him in junior another year with the expectation that he would then play in the AHL. Most teams would not be penciling in a player like Clarke to the AHL for his age 20 season.

And as far as Bjornfot and Kupari, true they weren't as ridiculous as the AHL decisions on Byfield and Turcotte, I think there would have been some teams who would have brought them over, but it was probably a 50/50 type decision, yet the Kings brought both over when it was certainly not a slam dunk decision. Just more proof that the Kings development philosophy revolves heavily around the AHL, IMO at the expense of further development in lower leagues, whether it be Europe or the NCAA.

And speaking of Bjornfot, his usage this year is another example of just how bizarre the Kings decision making is. Two years in the NHL at 19/20 and then back to the AHL at 21 to keep Alex Edler? Do you realize how unheard of that is for prospects? Teams just don't do that.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

Can we all commend Herby for continuing to calmly and intelligently explain that 2+2=4 to a person who believes 2+2=potato

 

[Herby]

Can we all commend Herby for continuing to calmly and intelligently explain that 2+2=4 to a person who believes 2+2=potato

I don't have the same kind of dislike for GBH that it seems many here do, my biggest issues in the past were the attitude and the cussing people out, but none of that has happened here so I am happy to have a discussion with him, and he is entitled to have his opinions. To me he is nothing like the Axl's and TKF's of the world.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

I don't have the same kind of dislike for GBH that it seems many here do, my biggest issues in the past were the attitude and the cussing people out, but none of that has happened here so I am happy to have a discussion with him, and he is entitled to have his opinions. To me he is nothing like the Axl's and TKF's of the world.

I think GBH draws particular ire because he argues in bad faith, never criticizes management, and refuses to admit when he’s wrong. He’s a shameless company man, and it’s hard to respect that.

 

[Herby]

I think GBH draws particular ire because he argues in bad faith, never criticizes management, and refuses to admit when he’s wrong. He’s a shameless company man, and it’s hard to respect that.

I think GBH can admit when he is wrong. I think he has finally kind of begrudgingly admitted that the Kings do things a bit differently than most teams (which he used to not), but has now moved on to defending and rationalizing those decisions, which I obviously disagree with, but he is entitled to his opinions.

I'm cool with having disagreements with anyone, just as long as someone isn't taking the Axl/TFK make stuff up road.

 

[Surf Nutz]

Great post and it's too early for me to completely dig in, but....you are right not ALL players go on to bad teams, but....having said that, your examples, WHO did they supplant?

Makar - the year before the D core was - Barrie, Girard, Zadarov, E. Johnson, Nemeth, Barberio, there was no talent there that he had to compete with, they did make room so to speak by trading Barrie for Kadri etc, but do we really think that was going to be a competition?

Caufield - Montreal top six the year before his full season - Toffoli, Suzuki, Tatar, Anderson, Danault, Gallagher, Drouin, - again, who was he competing with, Tatar? Drouin? Gallagher?

McAvoy - Boston D corp before - Krug, Chara, Carlo, Miller, Miller McQuaid - Who was he competing with a 39 year old Chara? Sure....he was still good at that age,

Byfield - LA Top 6 before - Kopitar, Iafallo, Brown, Kempe, Carter, Toffoli, We know he wasn't supplanting Kopitar, one can argue Carter, but the put Vilardi in there, etc...

I'm not saying they made the right move, but I'm not willing to say they made the WRONG move either, I'm saying its extremely early still to make that call, Jack Hughes, Thornton and Barkov, and then Stutzle, Raymond, Zegras, etc, were all given spots on bad teams.....and the only one to have any success (team wise) is NJ.

As far as D, look at that list, Hughes - Vancouver, awful, Makar, not good, not where they are now, his 1st full year, they drafted 4th OA, Sanderson, awful team, Heiskanen 1st year after, drafted 13th OA, so not where they were in his 2nd year, but that's probably the closest example of the bunch, Dobson, horrible, Byram has shown that's a bad decision, Doughyt, bad team, Karlsson, bad team Hanifin, bad team, Letang with Heiskanen probably the two closest examples....

Someone posted above that this is an over correction for how they used to bring players in and I think thats 100% dead on.....

 

[Surf Nutz]

Wasting your time Herby. It's a valiant effort on your behalf. But any questioning of Blake (let alone criticism) is simply not allowed by that one. Pure dogma.

What a cop out!

Pretty sure Herby can handle his own without you helicoptering into the debate and trying to rescue someone that would probably waive you off.

He is respectfully debating Herby in a very Herby-like manner.

I appreciate him backing up the point I was making because I am too lazy to chase the hollow dried out bones Herby throws.

But it is nice to see someone sprint back with it, for a change

 

[Surf Nutz]

Sorry I hit send without finishing my post.

You can give him credit for the good things, you can even make an argument that you think his unorthodox development decisions will end up being fine. I just struggle how anyone can look at how the Kings handle prospects and think it’s not much much different than how just about everyone else does.

Look at the number of AHL games played by teenagers under Blake.

You did not directly address his examples and that is fine.
I do the same with you.
But it is not what you were doing in the proceeding posts.
He made the point I was trying to much better than I did.
Few playoff bound teams and few draft picks make the team without seasoning in developmental leagues,
Who said the NHL is not a developmental league?
Blake should have left Byf down last year after his injury.
Turc needed to adjust to the pro game and its been a nightmare.
Clarke will be given a look at times depending on injuries and evaluation but everyone agrees the present Kings regime has him slated for the AHL for development and evaluation.
Depending on how that goes if he does very well all around and with all the little things , he could join the Kings around the deadline if Blake agrees and makes space.

Can we all commend Herby for continuing to calmly and intelligently explain that 2+2=4 to a person who believes 2+2=potato

More like can we stop playing the buddy buddy vs. anyone that does not agree game that you guys have been playing here for the last century?
Herby stands his ground much better than those trying to make a rescue that is not even wanted or necessary.

 

[Herby]

His examples were a bit flawed, for example TT was never in the organization at the same time as Byfield, he was traded at the 2020 deadline and QB joined the organization at the 2020 draft. Dustin Brown was a 35 point player nearing the end of his career and was a winger. The Kings had a choice for the 2020/2021 season and that was Byfield or Vilardi as the 2C. They chose Vilardi, he ended up not being able to play C at the NHL level while Byfield went to the AHL and 2+ years later has yet to deliver anything close to what was expected from a #2OA pick. Did an unorthodox development decision that most teams wouldn't have made play any part in that? The decision should have been Byfield in the NHL, even if he struggled like Hughes, Thornton and Barkov did, it was the logical move, not the AHL for an 18 year old.

Turcotte needed to adjust to the pro game, why? What was different about Turcotte than all the other NCAA players from that draft. Why didn't Caufield, Boldy, York, Pinto etc. have to sign and get adjusted to the pro game. Why has it been a disaster? You know why, because of the decision Rob Blake made.

I'm not talking about all draft picks, yes the majority of draft picks are going to require time in the AHL. We are talking about high end pieces, and putting teenagers in the AHL. Other teams don't put high end pieces in the AHL at a young age like the Kings have done, this is all factual information, feel free to argue that the Kings have it right and everyone else is wrong, but the Kings are different, period.

Why does Clarke need development and evaluation in the AHL when so many other defenseman taken high in the draft have not? Is Clarke not as good as guys like Power and Hughes? Or do the Kings just develop differently?

 

[kingsfan28]

But the Kings the year before and after taking Byfield were a bad team too. Yet they went unconventional and didn't have him in the NHL, right?

Obviously most Top 5 picks are entering into bad teams, that is true, but it was no different with the Kings, so why did they take a different route?

Clarke would be entering a good team, but one where he is one of the 6 best d-man. That is not much different from many of the situations I listed, including Makar, McAvoy, the Hughes brothers, Byram. How is it these teams are able to find room and not feel the need to have the players "pay their dues" in the AHL?

To me, it just seems like there are proven paths to successfully develop certain types of players, and with all of the Kings 1st round picks under Blake (with the exception of Vilardi) they did things that other NHL teams would not have done, and the results have been pretty disappointing with most of those players.

Everyone has their ideas or excuses. The Byfield decision was blamed on Covid and the OHL shutting down (even though sending him to the OHL would have been unorthodox too), the Turcotte one has been blamed on everything from Covid to Tony Granato to Turcotte himself. The Clarke one has been blamed on having no room on the roster (most teams don't hold back a prospect like Clarke to roster Edler and Walker). The overcompensating for past mistakes thing by not rushing guys I don't really buy, because you had guys pulled from levels they hadn't dominated at and still had room to grow (Turcotte, Bjornfot, Kupari) to place them in the AHL as teenagers, causing harm to each players long-term ceiling. There was certainly no patience or abundance of caution when it came to the development choices on Turcotte, Bjornfot and Kupari

People can give all their reasons for defending the decisions or excusing them, but it just all gets back to the Kings AHL usage, which is extremely abnormal compared to other teams. If you want to argue that it's the right moves as SN has done, that is your opinion, but the way the Kings develop 1st round picks is certainly against the grain.



You can give Blake credit, he made some great trades and FA signings

Very good points, but is it Blake decision to have guys in the AHL and work on their game there or is it Murrays call? I've more than once wondered if Murrays the right guy for the job of player development.

 

[Herby]

Very good points, but is it Blake decision to have guys in the AHL and work on their game there or is it Murrays call? I've more than once wondered if Murrays the right guy for the job of player development.

I would be shocked if the decision on where to play #2 and #5 overall picks was in the hands of anyone other than Blake and/or Robitaille.

I think Murray and his ridiculous “only the McDavids of the world go straight to the NHL” comments are just him being a good soldier/yes man/useful idiot.

 

[Schrute farms]

What a cop out!

Pretty sure Herby can handle his own without you helicoptering into the debate and trying to rescue someone that would probably waive you off.

He is respectfully debating Herby in a very Herby-like manner.

I appreciate him backing up the point I was making because I am too lazy to chase the hollow dried out bones Herby throws.

But it is nice to see someone sprint back with it, for a change

Lol - so funny. I was referencing YOU not GHB. What self awareness. Classic.

 

[kingsfan28]

I would be shocked if the decision on where to play #2 and #5 overall picks was in the hands of anyone other than Blake and/or Robitaille.

I think Murray and his ridiculous “only the McDavids of the world go straight to the NHL” comments are just him being a good soldier/yes man/useful idiot.

But isn't the normal process draft>finish junior years or a few years in college > ahl > nhl ? Why is what Blake doing any different than most orgs do? Aside from the natural freaks or teams so bad they throw their top picks straight into the nhl to sell tickets, it seems hit and miss with any team bring their high picks into the nhl.

 

[Herby]

But isn't the normal process draft>finish junior years or a few years in college > ahl > nhl ? Why is what Blake doing any different than most orgs do? Aside from the natural freaks or teams so bad they throw their top picks straight into the nhl to sell tickets, it seems hit and miss with any team bring their high picks into the nhl.

Most forwards taken in the Top 2 of the draft have immediately played in the NHL.
Most NCAA players who are not ready to play in the NHL spend a 2nd season in college rather than the AHL
Most defenseman taken as high and with the results of Clarke do not play in the AHL their age 20 season.

If we trust Hoven, the Kings will be different in all three areas, on the three highest picks of the Blake era.

 

[Surf Nutz]

Lol - so funny. I was referencing YOU not GHB. What self awareness. Classic.

Hand of God!
I understand it can be difficult communicating in a second language.
I myself speak Spanish and at times it is a little broken.

 

[kingsfan28]

Most forwards taken in the Top 2 of the draft have immediately played in the NHL.
Most NCAA players who are not ready to play in the NHL spend a 2nd season in college rather than the AHL
Most defenseman taken as high and with the results of Clarke do not play in the AHL their age 20 season.

If we trust Hoven, the Kings will be different in all three areas, on the three highest picks of the Blake era.

So by this formula:
QB should've started in LA
Turcotte should've stayed in college [which who knows what would've happened with covid had he stayed]
And based on a very inconsistent Hoven, Clarke will end up in the AHL .

 

[SettlementRichie10]

I think GBH can admit when he is wrong. I think he has finally kind of begrudgingly admitted that the Kings do things a bit differently than most teams (which he used to not), but has now moved on to defending and rationalizing those decisions, which I obviously disagree with, but he is entitled to his opinions.

I'm cool with having disagreements with anyone, just as long as someone isn't taking the Axl/TFK make stuff up road.

Fair!

 

[Herby]

And just to cite some facts. Those players were taken 2, 5, 8 in the drafty

For the rest of the league here is the # of AHL games played for players taken in that range since Blake took over

20017
Hischier (0)
Patrick (0)
Heiskanen (0)
Makar (0)
Petterssen (0)
Glass (88)
L. Andersson (156)
Mittlestad (36)


2018
Dahlin (0)
Svechnikov (0)
Kotkaniemi (13)
Tkachuk 0
Hayton (35)
Zadina (82)
Q Hughes (0)
Boqvist (15)

2019
J Hughes (0)
Kakko (0)
Dach (3) (conditioning)
Byram (2) (conditioning)
Turcotte (87)
Seider (49)
Cozens (0)
Broberg (38)

2020
Lafenierre (0)
Byfield (59)
Stutzle (0)
Raymond (0)
Sanderson (0)
Drysdale (14)
Holtz (76)
Quinn (60)

2021
Power (0)
Beniers (0)
MacTavish (2) (conditioning)
Hughes (0)
Johnson (0)
Edvinsson (51)
Eklund (54)
Clarke (5) (conditioning)

That is 40 players. 37 non-Kings players. Of those 37, 23 played 0 AHL games or only AHL conditioning assignments less than 5 games.

- QB has more AHL GP (59) than the all of the non-Kings top 5 picks in 5 drafts combined. Those players combined for 58 GP.

- The Ontario Reign are one of 32 teams in the AHL, this list has 923 total AHL games played. Games played by Ontario Reign players account for 24.7% of the total games on this list. Skewed a bit because the Kings have four players on the list. But Buffalo has 5 names, NJ has 3, Ottawa has 3.

So by this formula:
QB should've started in LA
Turcotte should've stayed in college [which who knows what would've happened with covid had he stayed]
And based on a very inconsistent Hoven, Clarke will end up in the AHL .

1. Yes, QB should have been in the NHL like basically every other similar prospect has been.

2. Yes, it was a very easy decision that any other GM would have made. You really think Covid was the reason that Rob Blake pulled Alex Turcotte from college? The same Rob Blake who has placed 4 other teenagers in the AHL since he became GM. If Covid was the reason, why did none of those other teams pull their players and instead chose to have them return to college and not the AHL?

3. Based on the evidence of heavy AHL usage I believe that Hoven is right in this case. If you had a gun to your head and had to say where Clarke starts, what is your guess?

 

[RocketKing]

Wrong Thread

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

His examples were a bit flawed, for example TT was never in the organization at the same time as Byfield, he was traded at the 2020 deadline and QB joined the organization at the 2020 draft. Dustin Brown was a 35 point player nearing the end of his career and was a winger. The Kings had a choice for the 2020/2021 season and that was Byfield or Vilardi as the 2C. They chose Vilardi, he ended up not being able to play C at the NHL level while Byfield went to the AHL and 2+ years later has yet to deliver anything close to what was expected from a #2OA pick. Did an unorthodox development decision that most teams wouldn't have made play any part in that? The decision should have been Byfield in the NHL, even if he struggled like Hughes, Thornton and Barkov did, it was the logical move, not the AHL for an 18 year old.

Turcotte needed to adjust to the pro game, why? What was different about Turcotte than all the other NCAA players from that draft. Why didn't Caufield, Boldy, York, Pinto etc. have to sign and get adjusted to the pro game. Why has it been a disaster? You know why, because of the decision Rob Blake made.

I'm not talking about all draft picks, yes the majority of draft picks are going to require time in the AHL. We are talking about high end pieces, and putting teenagers in the AHL. Other teams don't put high end pieces in the AHL at a young age like the Kings have done, this is all factual information, feel free to argue that the Kings have it right and everyone else is wrong, but the Kings are different, period.

Why does Clarke need development and evaluation in the AHL when so many other defenseman taken high in the draft have not? Is Clarke not as good as guys like Power and Hughes? Or do the Kings just develop differently?

3rd person here lol, but I was taking the info from hockeydb.com quick and easy, but as I've found not entirely accurate....

Difference between Byfield, and Hughest, Thornton and Barkov was A. expectations out of the gate, they were never projected as long term projects, and B. Again, none of them had to displace anyone.

Turcotte, meh, I will give you that one, 100%, 2-3 years after the fact you can see it, Clarke needs development because my right leg is bigger than he is, and he got tossed around his 9 games, that's why he didn't stick.....and again....expectations....Power and Hughes came into teams that had f***all as expectations.....and even Hughes now has his defensive warts....big black and ugly and we can see how much success VAN is having....

The goal is to win games, not look pretty.....and Hughes while looking pretty, isn't winning games....100% of that is not just on him, but when the expectation is winning games......you don't just play him willy nilly...... Explain NJ and Nemec.....2nd round pick OA, why isn't he playing in the NHL?