2022/23 Roster Thread III: Run It Back!

[Beef Invictus]

You don't think Clarke would want the shiny new toy in JG?

Clarke tended to like his FAs more washed up.

 

[FLYguy3911]

I don't know why this slipped my mind, but the Tkachuk situation reminds me of last year when the Flyers took Sanheim to arbitration so that a long term contract wasn't an option to ruin their cap situation. Dopes.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Clarke tended to like his FAs more washed up.

point is neither he or Holmgren are calling the shots or making any decisions. If they were then JG would have been a Flyer 100% no questions asked.

All on the President/GM.

 

[ajgoal]

I didn't listen but i'd have to imagine it's referencing the coaching position. I mean, Torts brought up in some interview that the Flyers brought up Deslauriers to him in one of his job interviews. That came out a couple weeks before FA even started so we knew who the Flyers were going to be targeting. So I mean having a team praise that player in a job interview is pretty damn embarrassing in itself.

I was guessing that it was the coaching search. But there are so many things that could be referred to as "embarrassing..."

 

[deadhead]

Your fantasy is that Holmgren is / was mandating anything! Your scapegoat is a bit player in this current mess.

Were you in a time capsule for the last decade?
Holmgren was the VP who fired Hextall and hired Fletcher, and he was explicit about a "bias for action."
I mean if the guy who hires you states that, and Scott reiterates it, you don't consider that a "mandate."

Language is fun.

Positive: “Got to the 2nd round of the playoffs for the first time in a decade”

Negative: “After overpaying their way into ‘good enough’ players, their very highly paid coach shit the bed so hard that they barely beat the 12th seed and looked awful doing it. This was also their peak.”

That "12th seed" had four months to get healthy, and behind the same HOF goalie with basically the same team, got to the SC finals the next year.

The problem came when that highly paid coach gave up after he realized that the team had blown its one shot at getting his name on the Cup.

 

[mja]

I have more of a middle ground opinion on many Flyers-related things than most on this board.

That's perfect. It's so apt. I agree. You do have more of a middle ground opinion than most on this board, especially when you're being served a shit sandwich.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Were you in a time capsule for the last decade?
Holmgren was the VP who fired Hextall and hired Fletcher, and he was explicit about a "bias for action."
I mean if the guy who hires you states that, and Scott reiterates it, you don't consider that a "mandate."

That "12th seed" had four months to get healthy, and behind the same HOF goalie with basically the same team, got to the SC finals the next year.

The problem came when that highly paid coach gave up after he realized that the team had blown its one shot at getting his name on the Cup.

If Homer is to blame for everything, but overall Fletcher has done great, doesn't that means Homer is actually great?

 

[JojoTheWhale]

That "12th seed" had four months to get healthy, and behind the same HOF goalie with basically the same team, got to the SC finals the next year.

The problem came when that highly paid coach gave up after he realized that the team had blown its one shot at getting his name on the Cup.

Here are the guys that played in Game 1 vs the Flyers that didn't play in their last game before the suspension of play: Kotkaniemi, Mete, Drouin, Tatar

Here are the guys that you would tell me didn't matter out of that group if they were Flyers: Kotkaniemi, Mete, Drouin, Tatar

Here is my response to the "HOF Goalie" talking point:

No, they got their asses kicked.

 

[deadhead]

Fletcher has made a bunch of mistakes, but not some of the ones claimed.
He hasn't overpaid for anyone, from a market perspective.
He has paid for the wrong players, and succumbed to the "winner's curse."

Even Deslauriers got what was probably market money, PH Rumors had him projected at 3yrs, $2.33M.
Risto was an example of the "winner's curse," where the winner of an auction likely overpaid (most optimistic projection of value).
Ghost was the cost of dumping salary, which may be even higher this offseason.
Hayes was the market price at the time.

The two flaws are the lack of a long-term strategic vision, so the acquisitions don't seem to be the product of a coherent plan, and that may also explain the inability to take advantage of market inefficiencies and find bargains.

 

[Lindberg]

Fletcher has made a bunch of mistakes, but not some of the ones claimed.
He hasn't overpaid for anyone, from a market perspective.
He has paid for the wrong players, and succumbed to the "winner's curse."

Even Deslauriers got what was probably market money, PH Rumors had him projected at 3yrs, $2.33M.
Risto was an example of the "winner's curse," where the winner of an auction likely overpaid (most optimistic projection of value).
Ghost was the cost of dumping salary, which may be even higher this offseason.
Hayes was the market price at the time.

The two flaws are the lack of a long-term strategic vision, so the acquisitions don't seem to be the product of a coherent plan, and that may also explain the inability to take advantage of market inefficiencies and find bargains.

Chuck Fletcher built this sorry excuse for a team.

And yes he overpaid for Kevin Hayes. I don't give a crap what the market price was for him, let some other moron over pay for fools gold.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

I still cant believe he had an assistant coach be his rat. That to me is mind boggling. Unconscionable. He seems to be doing a great job in Pitt as the assistant GM.

Hakstol wasn't as bad as made out to be. Just a plain average coach. Didnt see many Seattle games though hoped he would have learned from some of his mistakes n Philly. Not sure if he did or didn't.

The whole situation was extremely bizarre. I know a guy who grew up with Anthony Stolarz, and he said the team was thrilled they could actually have pizza and beer on the team bus after a win soon after Hextall was fired.

 

[mja]

Fletcher has made a bunch of mistakes, but not some of the ones claimed.

We're now up to a bunch! From one to three to a bunch in just 9 days! Progress!

Seriously, your position is untenable, just admit Chuck is a Clarke hack, the worst Clarke hack at that, and move on.

 

[Starat327]

Here are the guys that played in Game 1 vs the Flyers that didn't play in their last game before the suspension of play: Kotkaniemi, Mete, Drouin, Tatar

Here are the guys that you would tell me didn't matter out of that group if they were Flyers: Kotkaniemi, Mete, Drouin, Tatar

Here is my response to the "HOF Goalie" talking point:

No, they got their asses kicked.

Jojo off the top rope...

 

[deadhead]

Chuck Fletcher built this sorry excuse for a team.

And yes he overpaid for Kevin Hayes. I don't give a crap what the market price was for him, let some other moron over pay for fools gold.

That's a different issue.

One key when you get into FA is to have a reservation price (before you bid, determine the highest price you're willing to pay and be willing to walk away) and stick to it - Howie does that. Fletcher seems focused on a player, and doesn't have the confidence to wait out the feeding frenzy and look for bargains.

However in the summer of 2019 the Flyers knew Patrick was damaged goods, they had committed to AV, so they may well have decided they'd over pay Hayes or Duchene by a million rather than write off the season.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

NST had PHL during that series at:

41.97 CF% @ 5v5
43.48 FF% @ 5v5
38.82 xGF% @ 5v5

Let's put that into scope. Montreal turned them into the 2021-22 Coyotes at 5v5, but worse. But they won! Great success.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

The entire selling point here is that Carter Hart stole a series 700 days ago. Now we might have irrevocably broken him, but we've got this under control. Stare into the Matt Niskanen and repeat after me -- "#FlyeredUp".

 

[deadhead]

NST had PHL during that series at:

41.97 CF% @ 5v5
43.48 FF% @ 5v5
38.82 xGF% @ 5v5

Let's put that into scope. Montreal turned them into the 2021-22 Coyotes at 5v5, but worse. But they won! Great success.

Both Philly and Boston lost their mojo with four months off.

The bizarre thing is while the Flyers missed the playoffs the next season, most of the team bounced back from the playoff collapse.
Flyers were 14th in xGF% at 50.57%.
The one player who really slipped was Voracek, and I think b/c once they were out of contention he tuned AV out.
Three teams had better xGF but similar records, Dallas, Calgary and Montreal (52.87%).
Montreal struggled with goalie play the regular season but then Price found his playoff mojo.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Both Philly and Boston lost their mojo with four months off.

Was the Return to Play Seeding whatever a fever dream? Did I forget my own malaria?

 

[Striiker]

When Authentics try to excuse Fletchers horrible moves by saying he was forced to have a bias for action it makes me think of someone saying to their spouse "I'm hungry. Run to the store and buy us something to eat", then the person comes back, having only bought $500 worth of vinegar, and says "Why are you mad? You said to go buy something!".

Being forced to make moves doesn't mean you were forced to make bad moves. He could have done a ton but made the team better instead of worse. Why are we pretending that wasn't an alternative, as if his choices were exactly what he did or nothing at all?

Oh wait, I know why. Shameless shilling.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Was the Return to Play Seeding whatever a fever dream? Did I forget my own malaria?

They lost their mojo the second that AV decided to shit down his leg at the first sign of pushback from the Habs.

It was the whole reasoning of why we knew that AV wasn't going to get the job done the following season or the year after. We heard for months or even years about how AV had them playing a different way because of they layoff they'll be back to normal during the following regular season. They weren't. That season was blamed on COVID and Lake Tahoe and yet we still had the same arguments that he would change despite mountains of evidence that THAT was who he was as a coach. The 9 game winning streak before the break? An aberration, it was not the norm.

 

[Hanover Fist]

NST had PHL during that series at:

41.97 CF% @ 5v5
43.48 FF% @ 5v5
38.82 xGF% @ 5v5

Let's put that into scope. Montreal turned them into the 2021-22 Coyotes at 5v5, but worse. But they won! Great success.

The operation was a great success although the patient died…

 

[bobbythebrain]

That's a different issue.

One key when you get into FA is to have a reservation price (before you bid, determine the highest price you're willing to pay and be willing to walk away) and stick to it - Howie does that. Fletcher seems focused on a player, and doesn't have the confidence to wait out the feeding frenzy and look for bargains.

However in the summer of 2019 the Flyers knew Patrick was damaged goods, they had committed to AV, so they may well have decided they'd over pay Hayes or Duchene by a million rather than write off the season.

JT Miller was also out there. I also remember a good portion of this board advocating that Hayes was the better choice and gawking at the thought of Miller over Hayes. Ouchy

 

[Young Sandwich]

Was the Return to Play Seeding whatever a fever dream? Did I forget my own malaria?

That little bubble seeding tournament was probably the best the Flyers looked in the past decade. I remember being absolutely shocked watching them steamroll their way to the top seed. Ah, the good ol' days.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Even if you believe any one of the things was someone else's idea or was excusable because a team was sneakily underrated, there has got to be a saturation point where the only solution left is incompetence. We'll all hit it at different points because that's just how that thing works. I'm not going to kill someone for hitting it later than I happened to this time.

The only instructive bit here is that they are beyond the Rubicon for hope on an organizational scale.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Fletcher has made a bunch of mistakes, but not some of the ones claimed.
He hasn't overpaid for anyone, from a market perspective.
He has paid for the wrong players, and succumbed to the "winner's curse."

Even Deslauriers got what was probably market money, PH Rumors had him projected at 3yrs, $2.33M.
Risto was an example of the "winner's curse," where the winner of an auction likely overpaid (most optimistic projection of value).
Ghost was the cost of dumping salary, which may be even higher this offseason.
Hayes was the market price at the time.

The two flaws are the lack of a long-term strategic vision, so the acquisitions don't seem to be the product of a coherent plan, and that may also explain the inability to take advantage of market inefficiencies and find bargains.

"He paid market value" isn't a good defense because terrible GMs have a say in establishing value. If a lot of really bad GMs are fighting over a player then his value goes up. That doesn't mean the player is actually worth that. The good teams can recognize that and stay away. The bad teams just pay the bad value. That's what Fletcher does.