Pre-Game Talk: 2021 Training Camp

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Sorry to bust on you BBA, but this could be read as Foegele was 6th or one of Aho/TT/Svech was eliminated.

LOL. Or it could just be me screwing up. He was 4th overall, after Aho(1st), Svech(2nd), and TT(3rd). Necas was 5th.

I deserve to get busted on for that.

 

[bleedgreen]

We are not only crotchety, we are fickle. For the first half of 18/19 we certainly all didn't love Hamilton. The second half we were "ok" with him. It was really only when he was scoring ppg that he was beloved. I will mention again that over the last 20 games he played he scored 12 points, which equates to his previous best production. Dougie hasn't produced over a long enough period to confirm his status with the likes of Carlson or Letang, nor has his D-zone play been consistent for a long enough time to make him comparable to Pietrangelo or Weber. If he regresses to 19g/29a and the occasional lapse in his own end, we wouldn't love him for long at $8.5M per.



The Athletic (I know you aren't a huge analytics fan BG) made a case that TT was one of the few wingers who deserved Selke consideration last season. And if you are not a fan of advanced analytics, I suggest you merely look up TT's on-ice GF/GA the past two seasons with any teammate. TT makes everyone else better both offensively and defensively. Results matter and TT has impressive results.

It’s true I judge by watching the actual performance and he still makes a lot of common mistakes. The fact that these don’t get reflected in stats is why I take stats with a grain of salt with hockey. Stats often blame the wrong player or don’t take the situation into account. They’re great for making an argument you want to make but rarely take the full picture in. You can tell me stats all day but watching the game shows the goods. He gets on the wrong side of his guy frequently, he often fades into the space between his guy and the passer trying to pick the pass off which is fifth grade level bad defense, and he still makes some bad choices with puck management in terms of risky passes but as he’s matured that’s where I’ve seen the most growth. Due to his size and strength he often has to hang outside of scrums and stick check a lot in the boards which leaves him at a deficit from the get go, which is another area he’s tried hard to overcome which I also give him credit for. Calling him a Selke candidate is a mockery to the award. Makes as much sense as when we were calling Faulk a Norris hopeful. He’s at best trying his hardest to be better and deserves the credit. The rest is hard to even read with a straight face.

Aho also makes similar mistakes. They’re our star players and as such get free passes on this sort of thing at times, including from me because I actually don’t care. Honestly. I just can’t read things like “Selke”. I’m fine with either one not being rock stars at it, I watch hockey for offense not two way old fashioned western Alberta good old boy blah blah bullshit. Eff that. Still we go too far as a fan base with this sort of thing. We’ve taken a lot of abuse over the years and celebrate everything we can as often as we can. I respect that, but you can show me as many stats as you want....I know the truth from watching the games. He’s no doubt much better than he used to be. That’s the maturity that comes with age and a desire to keep working in this league. You have to pay mind to it or a guy like Rod will run you right out of town on a rail. He gets kudos from me for that. He’s a better player every year. He’s no defensive stalwart. He’s a smallish, sneaky playmaker with some greasy escapability and soft mitts. He’s a layman’s European Pat Kane. You don’t trade for TT for his worker bee like defensive acumen....

 

[MinJaBen]

It seems to me that Necas would be less of a liability on Aho's line with TT (a 200 foot scoring line) than on Staal's line (a 200 foot checking line).

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

It seems to me that Necas would be less of a liability on Aho's line with TT (a 200 foot scoring line) than on Staal's line (a 200 foot checking line).

I think BDC said it well though, Aho and TT probably perform better with a more physical presence on their line, which Necas is not.

 

[Lempo]

Woah. We got like 40 fans!

 

[Lempo]

Nope. Dudon got rid of it. Ha!

What Happened to the Carolina Hurricanes Message Board?

So they closed an internet forum due to the economic downturn.

Which in its part is due to the global pandemia that's sending concerts etc. to the internet.

"Closed. Go chat to the town square."

 

[NotOpie]

The joke is on you. We have a BUNCH of crotchety old dudes here.

I prefer curmudgeonly myself....

At any rate, the line discussions are quite interesting. Given the short camp, they'll need to come together fairly quickly. But as others have said, we're really only 1 new guy in the mix....and he seems like the type that will blend in pretty seamlessly.

All of that said, I actually like the idea of Necas w/Foegele and Staal. The latter is a pure space maker and the former is a dogged puck hound. My guess is the thought process entails Necas picking up some of that defensive acumen by osmosis. More importantly, it does provide a very interesting twist to the line. Necas and Foegele are probably the two fastest guys on the team. Whomever mentioned a "triangle" attack (yes, I know it was tongue in cheek) was probably more right than they imagined. Plus, while Foegs hasn't proven to be very "handsy", he is a pretty darn good passer. That could open up some one-timer opportunities for Marty.

I'm also cautiously optimistic about Nino back w/Aho and Teravainen. They didn't exactly suck during Nino's first partial year here. Niederreiter is definitely my pick for a player that comes back to the mean. Even at 45 - 50 points, he'll be a boon on that line. Plus, he brings size and some pretty solid board play.

 

[LakeLivin]

Pretty much. As I've said for those that want to wait until after the expansion draft, even if you love a guy, and he loves you, and you have a handshake deal to everyone's liking, the closer you get to free agency, the easier it is to get tempted to at least take a look.

It is a tough spot to be in. We can contend this year so you don't want to just lose him for prospects or lose him period. But it would suck to lose him for nothing as well. If they don't get him signed, I imagine they'll just make a play for the "next Dougie" next year. And getting a younger, more cost-controlled Dougie again might end up better than giving him $8+ million into his 30s, even if we all love him.

Gotta agree, waiting until after the expansion draft to sign Dougie seems really risky to me. At the point he went down last year Dougie may well have been playing the best all around D in the NHL. Now, that could have been a temporary peak in the normal fluctuations of a career. I'm well aware that past performance doesn't guarantee future results, the dangers of extrapolating, and the principle of regression to the mean. But if Hamilton were to come back close to where he left off pre-injury, he could be one of the top 5 d-men in the league, maybe even top 3. And I don't see that as being out of the realm of possibility. Hamilton has always been offensively gifted, and he seemed to hit a new level defensively last year. My theory is that any d-man playing on a team with Slavin and Pesce is likely to up their defensive game; they almost have to, in order to not to look bad in comparison.

If Dougie does pick up where he left off last (regular) season, and he was available, I could see Ron Francis making a move to build his D around him. And I could see RF putting together a pretty attractive pitch, too. First, seems like the Krack could afford to pay more for what would be their cornerstone D-man than most other NHL teams. And they could sell the idea of a leadership role in developing the culture on what is essentially a team blank slate. That might help overcome what I see as a big advantage the Canes have with Dougie; he was a square peg on 2 round hole teams before fitting like a glove on the Canes. On top of that, Vegas kind of killed the counterpoint that an expansion team couldn't be Cup competitive for a number of years. [not that I expect the Krack to be as competitive as Vegas was; other teams must have learned from the Vegas experience]

Bottom line for me: unless Dougie is way out of line [Aho's contract seems like a natural max upper bound], get 'er done, Committee.

 

[LakeLivin]

deleted; mistaken partial post

 

[emptyNedder]

but you can show me as many stats as you want....I know the truth from watching the games.

BG. I love your passion. But isn't the score a stat? For instance a lot of Finnish fans (quite a few Canadians too) saw that Finland was the better team last night. In another year only the hardest of diehards will remember or care.

For the past two seasons (from NaturalStatTrick) at 5-on-5:

Teravainen 1.93 GA/60
Staal 2.26 GA/60
Williams 2.37 GA/60
McGinn 2.40 GA/60

These are actual results, not corsi or expected goals against.

By the way if you are interested in one "fancy" stat, Teravainen faced tougher competition this past season and was only slightly behind Staal and Williams in 18/19.

I get it that you think TT is not great defensively. But you might want to consider if you are prey to motivated perception. Because surely 150 or so games of making the blatant mistakes that you see would show in goals scored by the opposition.

 

[LakeLivin]

For the refugees, welcome! Its about time that we got some more Canes blood in here.
. . .
Oh, and if you're going to get into a heated disagreement, meeting to throw fists at a Bojangles parking lot has already been done, so make the next one more original.

That's just funny.

Even though I've been frequenting the main HF boards for awhile, when it comes to HF Canes I guess you could call me one of the Official Canes Board ex-pats. We did a survey over there recently and most of us active regulars were old bastards, probably past the point of meeting at a Bojangles parking lot to throw fists. Now, meeting at a Bojangles parking lot to throw down some chicken . . .

 

[Canes]

I've already made my piece with Hamilton leaving. Truth is that we're ultimately not a high revenue team compared to most of the NHL, there's a pandemic shock that will last for who knows how long, and we've been relatively high spenders lately. Unless we can find takers for Gardiner and/or Skjei, their presence on the roster might directly stand in the way of re-signing Dougie, IMO. And then there's the next Svech contract... Something is going to have to give eventually. If he does come back, great depending on the contract.

As for the first line, I'm not too worried. Nino won't get more than 10-20 games there unless he produces and/or Svechnikov develops great chemistry with Trocheck. Brindy has shown he'll roll with our top 3 guys on the first line if he has to.

 

[A Star is Burns]

I've already made my piece with Hamilton leaving. Truth is that we're ultimately not a high revenue team compared to most of the NHL, there's a pandemic shock that will last for who knows how long, and we've been relatively high spenders lately. Unless we can find takers for Gardiner and/or Skjei, their presence on the roster might directly stand in the way of re-signing Dougie, IMO. And then there's the next Svech contract... Something is going to have to give eventually. If he does come back, great depending on the contract.

As for the first line, I'm not too worried. Nino won't get more than 10-20 games there unless he produces and/or Svechnikov develops great chemistry with Trocheck. Brindy has shown he'll roll with our top 3 guys on the first line if he has to.

I think there is a 0.0% chance those contracts have anything to do with our ability to retain Dougie.

 

[PB37]

Hey guys, any reports as to how David Cotton has looked so far in camp?

 

[Derailed75]

To all the apparently former Canes board members:

Ok I finally made an account. I was on the team boards also. Dont remember what my screen name was though LOL.

 

[VibesAlive]

Thanks for the welcome folks! I was unsure, and I was going to challenge anybody that wanted to go toe to toe by the Hardee's dumpster down east somewhere but I see now that's not necessary.

I really want to swing by and take a look at the WCC, having spent many days watching at RCI. It's almost surreal it took this long to get a first class training and practice facility. Dundon seems to be holding to his word to put the money in the players.

Great times to be a Canes fan.

 

[Derailed75]

Thanks for the welcome folks! I was unsure, and I was going to challenge anybody that wanted to go toe to toe by the Hardee's dumpster down east somewhere but I see now that's not necessary.

I really want to swing by and take a look at the WCC, having spent many days watching at RCI. It's almost surreal it took this long to get a first class training and practice facility. Dundon seems to be holding to his word to put the money in the players.

Great times to be a Canes fan.

(In that really bad voice from the commercials) HARDEE'S!

Man I will take you out in the Waffle House parking lot.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Hey guys, any reports as to how David Cotton has looked so far in camp?

No. The nhl squad and potential taxi squad guys are in 2 different groups and we’ve heard very little about the taxi squad group. It’s also only been a couple days so kinda hard to make a judgment

 

[bleedgreen]

BG. I love your passion. But isn't the score a stat? For instance a lot of Finnish fans (quite a few Canadians too) saw that Finland was the better team last night. In another year only the hardest of diehards will remember or care.

For the past two seasons (from NaturalStatTrick) at 5-on-5:

Teravainen 1.93 GA/60
Staal 2.26 GA/60
Williams 2.37 GA/60
McGinn 2.40 GA/60

These are actual results, not corsi or expected goals against.

By the way if you are interested in one "fancy" stat, Teravainen faced tougher competition this past season and was only slightly behind Staal and Williams in 18/19.

I get it that you think TT is not great defensively. But you might want to consider if you are prey to motivated perception. Because surely 150 or so games of making the blatant mistakes that you see would show in goals scored by the opposition.

I see the mistakes they all make. No, I don’t think there’s any motivated perception. Name a player and we can have a conversation about what I think that guy is good or bad at.

For the type of offensive player he is, I actually don’t think he’s bad at all. I think he’s not as great as we say he is here. I obviously think he’s not a Selke guy. I don’t get that at all. Aho has his warts too, but is a clear step better that way to me - and he has the far more challenging defensive role. Wingers just don’t have the same responsibilities. I’d put Svech out there before TT in a defensive situation if we’re talking about the skill guys only. He has an unfair physical advantage for the comparison but it is what it is. Svech takes care of the puck and will stay on his guys hip all the way to the goal line way more consistently.

 

[the halleJOKEL]

Thanks for the welcome folks! I was unsure, and I was going to challenge anybody that wanted to go toe to toe by the Hardee's dumpster down east somewhere but I see now that's not necessary.

I really want to swing by and take a look at the WCC, having spent many days watching at RCI. It's almost surreal it took this long to get a first class training and practice facility. Dundon seems to be holding to his word to put the money in the players.

Great times to be a Canes fan.

i played a couple games at the WCC earlier this year before adult leagues were put back on hold. it's a very nice facility, and i look forward to spending a lot of time there when things are back to normal

 

[DaveG]

Hi is this where everyone from the boards on the Hurricanes home page came?

Yep, been an outlet on and off for Canes official board exodus posters for years here. Definitely the (slightly) more sane option with Reddit being basically unreadable, and Facebook being... Well... If you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.

 

[Lempo]

Well... If you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.

You know, Nieztsche says that.

 

[Novacane]

Anyone see if any WJC participants are coming over to participate? My guess is Suzuki and Ponomaryov are probably the only situations that makes sense and they’re long shots

Edit: Looks like not known yet

 

[spockBokk]

Anyone see if any WJC participants are coming over to participate? My guess is Suzuki and Ponomaryov are probably the only situations that makes sense and they’re long shots

I think there’d already be news about either of them joining if it were to happen.

 

[To Be Determined]

You know, Nieztsche says that.

obligatory - blow it out your ass, howard