2021 Off Season Discussion Thread

[BlueMed]

A couple reasons.

1: If Kostin doesn't make the starting 12, he is better off playing top line minutes in the AHL for 20 games than sitting in the NHL press box for 15 games and playing 5. If Neighbors doesn't make the starting 12, he is better off sitting in the press box for 15 NHL games and playing 5 NHL games than he is going straight back to junior. In a scenario where both are waiting for an injury to get an NHL look, then Kostin waiting in the AHL with Neighbors waiting in the NHL is the best development option for both.

2: It's a long season. How much will Kostin's development be hurt by playing 15 AHL games and then 60 NHL games instead of 70 NHL games with some extra healthy scratches thrown in? I don't think there would be much (if any) difference and I'm pretty confident that the difference wouldn't outweigh the benefit of giving Neighbors a month to see what pro hockey looks like.

If they think Kostin is one of the 12 best forwards for opening night, then he should be here and be in the lineup. But the 13th and 14th forwards on a roster are about more than who are the 13th and 14th best forwards in the organization at that moment in time. They are about maximizing development and ensuring that you maintain as much NHL caliber depth as possible months down the line.

When was the last time a young player benefited in the type of scenario?

 

[Blueston]

When was the last time a young player benefited in the type of scenario?

I dunno but worked out ok for Petro.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

When was the last time a young player benefited in the type of scenario?

Pietro is the last example I can think of. I think Perron was a possibility for this, but he kept playing too well and was in a lower level junior league to where it was hard to argue he'd have a chance to do anything but stagnate if they sent him down.

Its tempting to imagine sending Kostin down to make the spot for Neighbors, then plan to call him up after Neighbors gets sent to juniors. I just don't think you can do that to Kostin this year, unless he has disappointing play. I'd prefer they lose Brown to waivers if it came to it. Kostin has done everything asked of him, and I think it would be too demoralizing to get jerked around for something like that. (I also think he'll probably be in a top 9 role to start the year, maybe alternating games with Neighbors?). The real question is what happens when the whole roster is healthy.

I think Clifford may end up getting the Thorburn treatment, where he ends up getting sent down basically the whole year after being signed as a tough guy the team doesn't actually need.

 

[Blueston]

Pietro is the last example I can think of. I think Perron was a possibility for this, but he kept playing too well and was in a lower level junior league to where it was hard to argue he'd have a chance to do anything but stagnate if they sent him down.

Its tempting to imagine sending Kostin down to make the spot for Neighbors, then plan to call him up after Neighbors gets sent to juniors. I just don't think you can do that to Kostin this year, unless he has disappointing play. I'd prefer they lose Brown to waivers if it came to it. Kostin has done everything asked of him, and I think it would be too demoralizing to get jerked around for something like that. (I also think he'll probably be in a top 9 role to start the year, maybe alternating games with Neighbors?). The real question is what happens when the whole roster is healthy.

I think Clifford may end up getting the Thorburn treatment, where he ends up getting sent down basically the whole year after being signed as a tough guy the team doesn't actually need.

It's incumbent on Kostin to make sure that doesn't happen. We all pencil him into a spot, but for a guy on cusp of roster he needs to break door down and take role. If he is gonna be a real player, no excuse for him to not separate from Neighbours or Brown at this point.

 

[MissouriMook]

It's incumbent on Kostin to make sure that doesn't happen. We all pencil him into a spot, but for a guy on cusp of roster he needs to break door down and take role. If he is gonna be a real player, no excuse for him to not separate from Neighbours or Brown at this point.

This. Kostin's only job in training camp is to make sure it is impossible for Army to send him to Springfield. You can't just say "He's earned it" if he's not separating himself from guys like Brown, Neighbours, MacMac and the other bubble forwards.

 

[MissouriMook]

The more I think about the current forward group, and especially after the Brown acquisition, the more I am convinced Clifford is going to get Fabbri-ed. It may be before the season starts or it may not happen until Sunny is ready to come back, but I feel like Army is going to send him somewhere that he can be more than the 13th/14th forward. I think the physicality he brings is overrated and replaceable, and there is plenty of veteran leadership in the locker room. I can't see us losing guys like Brown or MacMac, or even having no room to sign Neal or Frolik, because Clifford is clogging up a roster spot, and I feel like Army has too much respect for him and his resume to send him to the AHL.

 

[Brian39]

When was the last time a young player benefited in the type of scenario?

Petro was already mentioned. For a more recent example, Draisaitl going back to junior worked spectacularly well. Edmonton burned a year of his ELC with 37 games instead of limiting him to a 9 game tryout, but he was clearly not NHL ready and was sent back to junior with instructions to work on his skating and to become a more selfish shoot first player. His development has gone spectacularly.

Montreal sent Sergachev back to junior after keeping him on the NHL roster for a month (but only playing 3 games). He looked great as a rookie the next season and became a top 4 D man on the league's best team by the time he was 21.

Barzal spent a month on the Islanders and only played 2 games before being returned to junior. He won the Calder with an 85 point season the next year.

I'm sure there are more examples, but these are the 3 that immediately pop into my head when I think about guys who weren't quite ready for the NHL, took some pro experience back to junior and then quickly became stud NHL players.

 

[greybush314]

Petro was already mentioned. For a more recent example, Draisaitl going back to junior worked spectacularly well. Edmonton burned a year of his ELC with 37 games instead of limiting him to a 9 game tryout, but he was clearly not NHL ready and was sent back to junior with instructions to work on his skating and to become a more selfish shoot first player. His development has gone spectacularly.

Montreal sent Sergachev back to junior after keeping him on the NHL roster for a month (but only playing 3 games). He looked great as a rookie the next season and became a top 4 D man on the league's best team by the time he was 21.

Barzal spent a month on the Islanders and only played 2 games before being returned to junior. He won the Calder with an 85 point season the next year.

I'm sure there are more examples, but these are the 3 that immediately pop into my head when I think about guys who weren't quite ready for the NHL, took some pro experience back to junior and then quickly became stud NHL players.

Thomas should have gone back to juniors. Sure he filled a needed role for the SCC team but I think it stunted his growth as a player. I think with Neighbours you keep him around until WJC camp starts and let him go back to juniors afterwards unless their is a glaring need. The Olympic break has to be taken into consideration also. I'd rather he play in juniors for that 2 weeks.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Thomas should have gone back to juniors. Sure he filled a needed role for the SCC team but I think it stunted his growth as a player. I think with Neighbours you keep him around until WJC camp starts and let him go back to juniors afterwards unless their is a glaring need. The Olympic break has to be taken into consideration also. I'd rather he play in juniors for that 2 weeks.

Huh? Thomas had a very good rookie season and playoffs, improved in his 2nd season, and then has dealt with injuries.

 

[greybush314]

Huh? Thomas had a very good rookie season and playoffs, improved in his 2nd season, and then has dealt with injuries.

He most certainly did not improve his sophomore year. The team was pretty open that they were disappointed in Thomas' play that year.

 

[bleedblue1223]

He most certainly did not improve his sophomore year. The team was pretty open that they were disappointed in Thomas' play that year.

And where was that said. Must be nice to be disappointed with a 52 point pace. Like the rest of the team, they were very good until the restart/bubble.

 

[Brian39]

He most certainly did not improve his sophomore year. The team was pretty open that they were disappointed in Thomas' play that year.

He had 9 more points in 4 fewer games. He was also given an expended role and about a minute and a half more per game. Moreover, he opened camp last year on the 2nd line and every quote about it was that the team believed he was ready to be the 2C. That wouldn't be the case if they didn't feel he had improved from being a pure bottom 6 player as he was his in his rookie year.

I think the team is frustrated that he failed to make the jump to 2C in his 3rd NHL season. That doesn't meant that they were frustrated by his 2nd NHL season and the quotes, usage and statistical improvement from his rookie year suggest the opposite.

 

[Blueston]

The more I think about the current forward group, and especially after the Brown acquisition, the more I am convinced Clifford is going to get Fabbri-ed. It may be before the season starts or it may not happen until Sunny is ready to come back, but I feel like Army is going to send him somewhere that he can be more than the 13th/14th forward. I think the physicality he brings is overrated and replaceable, and there is plenty of veteran leadership in the locker room. I can't see us losing guys like Brown or MacMac, or even having no room to sign Neal or Frolik, because Clifford is clogging up a roster spot, and I feel like Army has too much respect for him and his resume to send him to the AHL.

I was thinking he would get Thorburned, but if there is team that wants him for 17th round pick or something I expect Army would accommodate.

 

[Moose and Squirrel]

Pietro is the last example I can think of. I think Perron was a possibility for this, but he kept playing too well and was in a lower level junior league to where it was hard to argue he'd have a chance to do anything but stagnate if they sent him down.

Its tempting to imagine sending Kostin down to make the spot for Neighbors, then plan to call him up after Neighbors gets sent to juniors. I just don't think you can do that to Kostin this year, unless he has disappointing play. I'd prefer they lose Brown to waivers if it came to it. Kostin has done everything asked of him, and I think it would be too demoralizing to get jerked around for something like that. (I also think he'll probably be in a top 9 role to start the year, maybe alternating games with Neighbors?). The real question is what happens when the whole roster is healthy.

I think Clifford may end up getting the Thorburn treatment, where he ends up getting sent down basically the whole year after being signed as a tough guy the team doesn't actually need.

iirc, Petro was pretty sour about that

 

[stl76]

The more I think about the current forward group, and especially after the Brown acquisition, the more I am convinced Clifford is going to get Fabbri-ed. It may be before the season starts or it may not happen until Sunny is ready to come back, but I feel like Army is going to send him somewhere that he can be more than the 13th/14th forward. I think the physicality he brings is overrated and replaceable, and there is plenty of veteran leadership in the locker room. I can't see us losing guys like Brown or MacMac, or even having no room to sign Neal or Frolik, because Clifford is clogging up a roster spot, and I feel like Army has too much respect for him and his resume to send him to the AHL.

I'd rather lose MacMac than Clifford if it came down to it.

Thomas should have gone back to juniors. Sure he filled a needed role for the SCC team but I think it stunted his growth as a player. I think with Neighbours you keep him around until WJC camp starts and let him go back to juniors afterwards unless their is a glaring need. The Olympic break has to be taken into consideration also. I'd rather he play in juniors for that 2 weeks.

I think it's too early to say Thomas' growth was stunted, but completely agreed with the bolded on handling Neighbours this year.

 

[KingsHockey24]

The more I think about the current forward group, and especially after the Brown acquisition, the more I am convinced Clifford is going to get Fabbri-ed. It may be before the season starts or it may not happen until Sunny is ready to come back, but I feel like Army is going to send him somewhere that he can be more than the 13th/14th forward. I think the physicality he brings is overrated and replaceable, and there is plenty of veteran leadership in the locker room. I can't see us losing guys like Brown or MacMac, or even having no room to sign Neal or Frolik, because Clifford is clogging up a roster spot, and I feel like Army has too much respect for him and his resume to send him to the AHL.

We'll give you Wagner for Clifford and you can bury him in the minors.

 

[Brian39]

iirc, Petro was pretty sour about that

Any sourness would have been about the decision to send him back to junior, not to keep him up here for a tryout before doing so. My recollection is that any sourness was related to the 2nd time he was sent back to junior after a 9 game tryout. I'm a big Petro fan, but it is hard to say that he was "correct" that he should have stayed up here. In his first 8 game tryout right after his draft year he had 1 point while having an even +/-. In his second 9 game tryout he had 2 points and was a -9.

The next year he broke out with 4 points in his first 9 games and a +6. His ice time quickly jumped up past 20 minutes a night and he was instantly a top 4 NHL D man at 21 years old. He had 43 points his rookie year, was 4th in Norris voting his sophomore year and signed a $45.5M contract just before his 23rd birthday. Hardly a cautionary tale about going back to junior.

 

[SIU LAW]

On 101 ESPN today, both Kerber and JR mentioned during different segments they did not think that, as of yet, Kostin is showing enough to make the roster out of camp. I always assume that Kerber is hearing things off the record(in addition to his own observations), so that doesn’t sound good for Kostin.

JR did wonder aloud if sending Kostin down to the AHL would make him a flight risk.

 

[Blueston]

On 101 ESPN today, both Kerber and JR mentioned during different segments they did not think that, as of yet, Kostin is showing enough to make the roster out of camp. I always assume that Kerber is hearing things off the record(in addition to his own observations), so that doesn’t sound good for Kostin.

JR did wonder aloud if sending Kostin down to the AHL would make him a flight risk.

Every pro coach has tried to get Kostin to play in way that will make him successful NHLer (including Hartley last year in kohl). Not sure why he has so much trouble consistently playing in that fashion.

 

[Thallis]

On 101 ESPN today, both Kerber and JR mentioned during different segments they did not think that, as of yet, Kostin is showing enough to make the roster out of camp. I always assume that Kerber is hearing things off the record(in addition to his own observations), so that doesn’t sound good for Kostin.

JR did wonder aloud if sending Kostin down to the AHL would make him a flight risk.

I've been getting that impression from the silence in regards to him vs Nieghbours and Perunovich. When young guys make an impression, usually the media around the team rave about them. It matches as to why he didn't get in for the last game of the playoffs last season too.

 

[BlueDream]

Yeah I was getting the same feeling about Kostin. You know when a young player is impressing, because people are raving about them. When there’s silence, that’s a bad sign.

All we have heard about Kostin is that he’s physical but we already knew that.

At this point, it’s been the same thing every year, and I think his absolute ceiling is a 3rd liner. He’s gonna be a grinder in the NHL and nothing more. Most likely a 4th liner ala Barbashev.

Kostin not progressing is probably good news for James Neal though.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Yeah, I sort of figured Kostin would have a 4th line spot at a minimum, but I saw a write up recently that he keeps trying to make things too complicated. Basically he should be playing a traditional NA power forward role, and he's playing like he's a skilled forward. That makes me think Neighbours might have a better shot at making the team. He's still young, but by this point, Barbashev fully embraced a grinder type role as opposed to a skilled role, Kostin needs to do the same.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

The quotes from Berube gave me a different impression. More that Kostin was playing fine, but was being asked to play a game that’s not very flashy. He won’t be as noticeable as the guys dangling with the puck. They just want a power forward game, and right now he’s playing that game with linemates who won’t utilize him much. I think JR is is misreading the situation if you go what Berube has actually been quoted as saying. In my experience Berube is pretty straightforward with his meanings, so I think his words here are sincere.

 

[Brian39]

On 101 ESPN today, both Kerber and JR mentioned during different segments they did not think that, as of yet, Kostin is showing enough to make the roster out of camp. I always assume that Kerber is hearing things off the record(in addition to his own observations), so that doesn’t sound good for Kostin.

JR did wonder aloud if sending Kostin down to the AHL would make him a flight risk.

Just to clarify, he would need the Blues permission to go to the KHL this year. He is under an NHL contract that doesn't have a clause that requires us to send him to Europe instead of the AHL. The KHL isn't going to break their relationship with the NHL and open the door to all of their contracted players being poached mid-season over Klim Kostin. Unless we give up on him and let him go back to the KHL, the concern over him being a flight risk comes at the end of the season. If he can stick in the NHL by the end of the year, then I don't think there is much risk. If he can't, then he will be 23 and I think the team would be ready to move on anyway.

I'm starting to lean toward him starting the year in the AHL but being on deck as the first call up that gets NHl time when forward injuries hit.

 

[Blueston]

The quotes from Berube gave me a different impression. More that Kostin was playing fine, but was being asked to play a game that’s not very flashy. He won’t be as noticeable as the guys dangling with the puck. They just want a power forward game, and right now he’s playing that game with linemates who won’t utilize him much. I think JR is is misreading the situation if you go what Berube has actually been quoted as saying. In my experience Berube is pretty straightforward with his meanings, so I think his words here are sincere.

I had a different read. Fine from Berube is not a compliment. I don’t think Kostin has done what he needed to make club at this point. He may still before camp ends but needs to embrace his role.