2020 Off-Season Discussion Part II

[87turbobuick]

Bring back Free agent Schenn playing for Tampa and not looking out of place. He is a 700k cap hit and had the courage to fight Martin.

 

[rt]

And OEL isn't going to wave.

Of course he will. Because Tocchet is staying.

 

[PainForShane]

Kuemper and OEL are the only two meaningful trade chips the Coyotes have. Adin Hill is ready to be the backup. An average starter is easy to find. Kuemper is peaking in value after an amazing season.

I'm going to ramble a bit.

Kuemper is really, really good. This season wasn't an fluke.

From what I've seen (as a former collegiate goalie) is that Adin Hill plays well maybe 90-95% of the time but lets up a really, really bad goal every game or two. Having played goal, I know my teammates hate it when I would let up a bad goal, even if I had saved 5 breakaways in that same game. And Adin Hill lets up truly bad goals. At least every other game. Any of us who have played hockey semi-competitively understand exactly what I'm talking about.

Imo Hill is not ready for an NHL job. At all. Not sure he will ever be, hopefully I am proven wrong if that's the direction we take. So far though I have not been impressed even though the physical skills are there. Just way too many horrible goals.

WRT Kuemper, he's arguably the best goalie in the league. Certainly one of the top 5. From what I have seen (season tix for 3 years), his form is consistent and perfect. He has amazing fundamentals, which is even more impressive because he's so big -- most big guys (incl Ben Bishop, Adin Hill etc) cheat because they can get away with it due to their size. Kuemper doesn't.

That's the only reason he's getting interest right now -- taking a step back, cup-winning goalies / future hall of famers like Matt Murray, Flower, Holtby etc are absolutely available and based on press reports some teams prefer Kuemps. So imo the league also agrees he's amazing otherwise why would anyone care.

In terms of age, Kuemps is 30 years old, signed for this year and next. The way he plays is technique based so he should be good until at least his mid 30s, he should age better than Jonathan Quick, Lundqvist, both of whom rely on athleticism and raw power. There was some poster here who said Kuemper reminded him of Hasek that guy was smoking something. Sure Kuemps is athletic but his goalie-ness is based on sound fundamentals.

The reason Kuemper's good is that he reads the play really well and doesn't cheat, you don't stop doing that as you get older. Actually you get better at reading the play as you get older, this is why Tom Brady, Chara, Gordie Howe, Jagr etc can play until they're old enough to be grandfathers.

And we all know goaltending is the greatest equalizer in the sport. And we HAVE that equalizer.

So why would you trade him for a mid-first round draft pick.

Talk to me. I think anyone suggesting a Kuemper trade right now is not thinking clearly or in the best interest of our team. Especially since we'd likely only get a mid-round first for him.

 

[rt]

I'm going to ramble a bit.

Kuemper is really, really good. This season wasn't an fluke.

From what I've seen (as a former collegiate goalie) is that Adin Hill plays well maybe 90-95% of the time but lets up a really, really bad goal every game or two. Having played goal, I know my teammates hate it when I would let up a bad goal, even after I saved 5 breakaways before in that game. And Adin Hill lets up truly bad goals. At least every other game. Any of us who have played hockey semi-competitively understand exactly what I'm talking about.

Imo Hill is not ready for an NHL job. At all. Not sure he will ever be, hopefully I am proven wrong if that's the direction we take. So far though I have not been impressed even though the physical skills are there. Just way too many horrible goals.

WRT Kuemper, he's arguably the best goalie in the league. Certainly one of the top 5. From what I have seen (season tix for 3 years), his form is consistent and perfect. He has amazing fundamentals, which is even more impressive because he's so big -- most big guys (incl Ben Bishop, Adin Hill etc) cheat because they can. Kuemper doesn't.

That's the only reason he's getting interest right now -- taking a step back, cup-winning goalies / future hall of famers like Matt Murray, Flower, Holtby etc are absolutely available and based on press reports some teams prefer Kuemps. So imo the league also agrees he's amazing otherwise why would anyone care.

In terms of age, Kuemps is 30 years old, signed for this year and next. The way he plays is technique based so he should be good until at least his mid 30s, he should age better than Jonathan Quick, Lundqvist, both of whom rely on athleticism and raw power. There was some poster here who said Kuemper reminded him of Hasek that guy was smoking something.

The reason Kuemper's good is that he reads the play really well and doesn't cheat, you don't stop doing that as you get older. Actually you get better at reading the play as you get older, this is why Tom Brady, Chara, Gordie Howe, Jagr etc can play until they're old enough to be grandfathers.

And we all know goaltending is the greatest equalizer in the sport. And we HAVE that equalizer.

So why would you trade him for a mid-first round draft pick.

Talk to me. I think anyone suggesting a Kuemper trade right now is not thinking clearly or in the best interest of our team. Especially since we'd likely only get a mid-round first for him.

Kuemper is wasted on the Coyotes. He’s a waste of an asset. There is no reason to have player like him here. The team sucks either way.

 

[Jakey53]

We are not advocating for this type of deal unless we get a A prospect and a 1st. Nobody is saying let’s get rid of him. We are just saying that if you are prepared to bribe us then we are willing to listen. Price is high though.

All I have been reading is the majority want to tear it down, trade OEL and Kuemper for picks. Goal tending is the most important position and we finally have a couple of good ones and most want to piss it away.

 

[PainForShane]

Kuemper is wasted on the Coyotes. He’s a waste of an asset. There is no reason to have player like him here. The team sucks either way.

Right but Kuemper will be world class for another 5 years or so.

If you can get McDavid or Crosby for him sure. But we're going to get a mid round first. A mid round first is no guarantee for anything. Heck, we picked Brendan Perlini #12 overall which is probably a better return than what we'd get for Kuemper this year.

Would you rather have a world class goalie for another 5 years or Brendan Perlini?

I'm going to take a break, I'm a little hot right now. Happy to discuss this further tomorrow.

Point is imo Kuemper is a world class goalie and he will be for at least the next 5 years. Flame me all you want if this prediction doesn't come true. Unless we're trading him for a sure thing (e.g, McDavid / Eichel etc) we'd be making a mistake letting him go

 

[Jakey53]

I'm going to ramble a bit.

Kuemper is really, really good. This season wasn't an fluke.

From what I've seen (as a former collegiate goalie) is that Adin Hill plays well maybe 90-95% of the time but lets up a really, really bad goal every game or two. Having played goal, I know my teammates hate it when I would let up a bad goal, even if I had saved 5 breakaways in that same game. And Adin Hill lets up truly bad goals. At least every other game. Any of us who have played hockey semi-competitively understand exactly what I'm talking about.

Imo Hill is not ready for an NHL job. At all. Not sure he will ever be, hopefully I am proven wrong if that's the direction we take. So far though I have not been impressed even though the physical skills are there. Just way too many horrible goals.

WRT Kuemper, he's arguably the best goalie in the league. Certainly one of the top 5. From what I have seen (season tix for 3 years), his form is consistent and perfect. He has amazing fundamentals, which is even more impressive because he's so big -- most big guys (incl Ben Bishop, Adin Hill etc) cheat because they can get away with it due to their size. Kuemper doesn't.

That's the only reason he's getting interest right now -- taking a step back, cup-winning goalies / future hall of famers like Matt Murray, Flower, Holtby etc are absolutely available and based on press reports some teams prefer Kuemps. So imo the league also agrees he's amazing otherwise why would anyone care.

In terms of age, Kuemps is 30 years old, signed for this year and next. The way he plays is technique based so he should be good until at least his mid 30s, he should age better than Jonathan Quick, Lundqvist, both of whom rely on athleticism and raw power. There was some poster here who said Kuemper reminded him of Hasek that guy was smoking something. Sure Kuemps is athletic but his goalie-ness is based on sound fundamentals.

The reason Kuemper's good is that he reads the play really well and doesn't cheat, you don't stop doing that as you get older. Actually you get better at reading the play as you get older, this is why Tom Brady, Chara, Gordie Howe, Jagr etc can play until they're old enough to be grandfathers.

And we all know goaltending is the greatest equalizer in the sport. And we HAVE that equalizer.

So why would you trade him for a mid-first round draft pick.

Talk to me. I think anyone suggesting a Kuemper trade right now is not thinking clearly or in the best interest of our team. Especially since we'd likely only get a mid-round first for him.

I agree with you 100%.

 

[Jakey53]

Kuemper is wasted on the Coyotes. He’s a waste of an asset. There is no reason to have player like him here. The team sucks either way.

I disagree 100%.

 

[rt]

Right but Kuemper will be world class for another 5 years or so.

If you can get McDavid or Crosby for him sure. But we're going to get a mid round first. A mid round first is no guarantee for anything. Heck, we picked Brendan Perlini #12 overall which is probably a better return than what we'd get for Kuemper this year.

Would you rather have a world class goalie for another 5 years or Brendan Perlini?

I'm going to take a break, I'm a little hot right now. Happy to discuss this further tomorrow.

Point is imo Kuemper is a world class goalie and he will be for at least the next 5 years. Flame me all you want if this prediction doesn't come true. Unless we're trading him for a sure thing (e.g, McDavid / Eichel etc) we'd be making a mistake letting him go

I’d rather have the mid-first. That’s an asset that makes sense for this team. Darcy Kuemper makes sense for a good team that can actually use him to have a good season and a good playoff run. That ain’t us.

OEL is a really good defenseman. And I can’t wait to trade him.

Taylor Hall is a word class winger. I see absolutely no point in re-signing him.

 

[Jamieh]

Right but Kuemper will be world class for another 5 years or so.

If you can get McDavid or Crosby for him sure. But we're going to get a mid round first. A mid round first is no guarantee for anything. Heck, we picked Brendan Perlini #12 overall which is probably a better return than what we'd get for Kuemper this year.

Would you rather have a world class goalie for another 5 years or Brendan Perlini?

I'm going to take a break, I'm a little hot right now. Happy to discuss this further tomorrow.

Point is imo Kuemper is a world class goalie and he will be for at least the next 5 years. Flame me all you want if this prediction doesn't come true. Unless we're trading him for a sure thing (e.g, McDavid / Eichel etc) we'd be making a mistake letting him go

Do you have a way to magically turn a 2 year contract into a 5 year contract? Why would Keumper re-sign with the Coyotes in 2 years? He will have his money and the goal then will be to win a Cup. You should not let that asset run out rather than turn it into younger assets. That's just player management.

 

[Jakey53]

Kuemper is wasted on the Coyotes. He’s a waste of an asset. There is no reason to have player like him here. The team sucks either way.

Ok, let's bring back Smith. He should be available. If are going to suck, let's suck more. Who wants to win anyway.

 

[Mosby]

Another reason I feel safe moving Kuemper is I have a lot of confidence in Corey Schwab. He may be a better goalie coach than Sean Burke.

 

[Jakey53]

I’d rather have the mid-first. That’s an asset that makes sense for this team. Darcy Kuemper makes sense for a good team that can actually use him to have a good season and a good playoff run. That ain’t us.

OEL is a really good defenseman. And I can’t wait to trade him.

Taylor Hall is a word class winger. I see absolutely no point in re-signing him.

Now you have changed your tune on Hall? I believe you were one of the posters that absolutely wanted to sign Hall. Tomorrow you will probably want to keep Kuemper. Oh, and now OEL is a really good defenseman? When did your evaluation change on him?

 

[Mosby]

I don't think anyone wants to trade Kuemper and then just stick a trash can in net. There are a lot of very good goalies available this summer. There is a very good potential to come out a net positive with a new goalie and the assets gained from Kuemper being of better value than Kuemper.

 

[Jakey53]

Do you have a way to magically turn a 2 year contract into a 5 year contract? Why would Keumper re-sign with the Coyotes in 2 years? He will have his money and the goal then will be to win a Cup. You should not let that asset run out rather than turn it into younger assets. That's just player management.

You can't keep on trading your best players because you are worried about their contracts. You will never ever win the cup if that is your thinking.

 

[rt]

Rick Tocchet offseason:

To COL:
OEL
Hall(rights)
Fischer

To ARI
Jost
Compher
Zadorov
Nieto(rights)
2020 1st
—
To OTT
Raanta

To ARI
2020 3rd
—
Keller-Dvorak-Garland
Jost-Stepan-Schmaltz
Nieto-J.T.C-Hinostroza
Crouse-Hayton-Kessel
Grabner

Chychrun-Goligoski
Zadorov-Hjammer
Oesterle-Demers
Soda/Bush

Kuemper
Hill

 

[Jakey53]

Another reason I feel safe moving Kuemper is I have a lot of confidence in Corey Schwab. He may be a better goalie coach than Sean Burke.

I don't care how good Schwab is, he's not playing the game.

 

[PainForShane]

Do you have a way to magically turn a 2 year contract into a 5 year contract? Why would Keumper re-sign with the Coyotes in 2 years? He will have his money and the goal then will be to win a Cup. You should not let that asset run out rather than turn it into younger assets. That's just player management.

Players often re-sign with the teams they're familiar with and / or played for and / or given them their first NHL opportunity. We both know this.

The first reason is why we traded for Taylor Hall mid-season remember him?

Kuemper is making 4.5m this year. Maybe we could pay him slightly more (like 6.5-7.5m long term), he'd certainly consider it. At the very least his deal expires in 2021-22 why is anyone thinking we should trade him now. Different discussion though.

I am too hot rn I'm signing off. We can continue tomorrow if you want. FWIW, Jamieh and rt I absolutely respect both you guys and the way you both think about things. Love the passion in these boards, passionate people can disagree and that is more than ok.

That said my point of view is that from here, we have an inarguable top 5 goalie in the world who imo will likely stay top 5 for the next 5-7 years. Why the f*** would you trade him for the 10th to 15th best player in some random year. Trade OEL if he doesn't want to be here that's fine. Don't trade someone who could / should be a perennial Vezina nominee for the next 5-7 years. That's how good Kuemper is

 

[Jamieh]

You can't keep on trading your best players because you are worried about their contracts. You will never ever win the cup if that is your thinking.

Yes you keep doing it with declining assets until your team is a contender, they you start adding back those type of players. It makes zero sense to use Keumper until he is a UFA and then watch him walk so you should be trading him sometime in the next 18 months. Keep having the dialogue until a great offer comes along,

 

[rt]

Players often re-sign with the teams they're familiar with and / or played for and / or given them their first NHL opportunity. We both know this.

The first reason is why we traded for Taylor Hall mid-season remember him?

Kuemper is making 4.5m this year. Maybe we could pay him slightly more (like 6.5-7.5m long term), he'd certainly consider it. At the very least his deal expires in 2021-22 why is anyone thinking we should trade him now. Different discussion though.

I am too hot rn I'm signing off. We can continue tomorrow if you want. FWIW, Jamieh and rt I absolutely respect both you guys and they way you both think about things. Love the passion in these boards, passionate people can disagree and that is ok.

That said my point of view is that from here, we have an inarguable top 5 goalie in the world who imo will likely stay top 5 for the next 5-7 years. Why the f*** would you trade him for the 10th to 15th best player in some random year. Trade OEL if he doesn't want to be here that's fine. Don't trade someone who could / should be a perennial Vezina nominee for the next 5-7 years. That's how good Kuemper is

I agree that Kuemper is really good. Vezina caliber. Top five. All of that. Which is why I want to trade him. His value is probably pretty good. He’s got a pretty cheap contract and he’s got two full seasons left. I bet we could get a decent 1st round pick for him. Those mid-first are a good coin-flip asset. 50/50. Kuemper, on the other hand, has a 0% chance of making a difference for the Coyotes.

He’s so good that he can potentially drag this trash roster into the playoffs only to watch them get run the f*** out, meanwhile providing cover for an utterly inept coaching staff that can say “see, at least we made the playoffs”. I’m not interested in that.

 

[Jamieh]

Players often re-sign with the teams they're familiar with and / or played for and / or given them their first NHL opportunity. We both know this.

The first reason is why we traded for Taylor Hall mid-season remember him?

Kuemper is making 4.5m this year. Maybe we could pay him slightly more (like 6.5-7.5m long term), he'd certainly consider it. At the very least his deal expires in 2021-22 why is anyone thinking we should trade him now. Different discussion though.

I am too hot rn I'm signing off. We can continue tomorrow if you want. FWIW, Jamieh and rt I absolutely respect both you guys and the way you both think about things. Love the passion in these boards, passionate people can disagree and that is more than ok.

That said my point of view is that from here, we have an inarguable top 5 goalie in the world who imo will likely stay top 5 for the next 5-7 years. Why the f*** would you trade him for the 10th to 15th best player in some random year. Trade OEL if he doesn't want to be here that's fine. Don't trade someone who could / should be a perennial Vezina nominee for the next 5-7 years. That's how good Kuemper is

Pump the brakes here. Keumper is 30 years old and has played more than 30 games one time in his career. It's a little optimistic to refer to him as top 5 or a perennial Vezina candidate. Who made him a starter will be completely irrelevant when he hits UFA, we all know that.

 

[XX]

Right but Kuemper will be world class for another 5 years or so.

He is only signed for the coming season and the season after. He has already had injuries. He can always decline. Your risk tolerance is way, way too high.

A year from now, without trading him, Darcy will be backstopping a bunch of misc. garbage assembled to hit the cap floor with no young reinforcements on the horizon.

The difference in value is an elite goalie for 2 seasons vs an average goalie for however many seasons you want + potentially a franchise/extremely useful player through the draft that might stick with you for 10+ years. Top 6 players are much harder to find than goalies. It's pretty straightforward salary cap era math.

Also, Adin Hill has the same fancy stats as Carter Hart (albeit at a much smaller sample size, but also fewer rebounds). He's more than ready to be a backup. You're welcome to whatever take you want, but a 24 year old letting in the odd bad goal is the norm. He's basically on track, exactly as expected. Most goalies do not round into starter form until 26+.

 

[PainForShane]

He is only signed for the coming season and the season after. He has already had injuries. He can always decline. Your risk tolerance is way, way too high.

A year from now, without trading him, Darcy will be backstopping a bunch of misc. garbage assembled to hit the cap floor with no young reinforcements on the horizon.

The difference in value is an elite goalie for 2 seasons vs an average goalie for however many seasons you want + potentially a franchise/extremely useful player through the draft. Top 6 players are much harder to find than goalies. It's pretty straightforward salary cap era math.

Also, Adin Hill has the same fancy stats as Carter Hart (albeit at a much smaller sample size, but also fewer rebounds). He's more than ready to be a backup. You're welcome to whatever take you want, but a 24 year old letting in the odd bad goal is the norm. He's basically on track, exactly as expected. Most goalies do not round into starter form until 26+.

Weren't you the guy who talked about being so happy that we locked up Keller and Schmaltz long term? After Keller had a fantastic rookie season and has gotten worse every season since then? And Schmaltz maybe not being even an NHL center now, after you were happy we're paying him almost 6m to be a 1C? You're telling me I have a high risk tolerance?

About Darcy Kuemper??

Keep talking XX. It's fun to listen to all the different ideas coming out of your mouth

 

[XX]

That said my point of view is that from here, we have an inarguable top 5 goalie in the world who imo will likely stay top 5 for the next 5-7 years.

He isn't signed through that period. You can't force him to sign. You could try to stack a ton of guaranteed money on the table to get him to sign, but that has proven to be a losing model in the cap era. Goalies are fickle and their fortunes change pretty quickly.

The Coyotes control Kuemper for 2 seasons and that's it.

 

[XX]

Weren't you the guy who talked about being so happy that we locked up Keller and Schmaltz long term? After Keller had a fantastic rookie season and has gotten worse every season since then? And Schmaltz maybe not being even an NHL center now, after you were happy we're paying him almost 6m to be a 1C? You're telling me I have a high risk tolerance?

About Darcy Kuemper??

Keep talking XX. It's fun to listen to all the different ideas coming out of your mouth

I'm way, way more comfortable giving Keller his deal than I am paying a goalie for that term. That's just common sense. Schmaltz is paid about market rate for his production, nothing special. They're controlled assets, Kuemper is not.

I don't know why you're taking this personally. This is a pretty basic discussion.