Speculation: 2020-2021: Sharks Roster Discussion Part 5

[seroes]

None of the scouts seemed to acknowledge the fact that the Sharks lost their top 3 scorers at various points during the season and were coached by an imbecile for the 1st part of the season as well. Frankly I think last years team with BB as HC from training camp and no long term injuries to Couture, Hertl and EK65 and that team makes the playoffs easily.

We were bad before the injuries. The injuries just eliminated any chance of turning it around. Even during November we didn't look that good. Just not the complete train wreck we were in October.

Overall I think we are in the same overall position as last year, 1 long term injury away from a basement dweller. I dont think we have any impact prospects coming this year(maybe next year) and will be relying on 3rd line players who should probably be playing on the 4th line to provide depth scoring.

Overall I think our core plays better and a new system marginally improves our goaltending but we still end up missing the playoffs. Probably finishing 5th or 6th in the division.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

Not only that, even with PDB as coach, and the slow start, the Sharks were playing dominant hockey, and trending toward an easy playoff spot until the Hertl injury.

They still lacked scoring. Couture missing all that time first, ended their chances for a playoff spot after that atrocious start to the season IMO. They needed other teams to go on big losing streaks to get in. Although considering the stoppage and then 24 team play in... Sharks would have been mostly healthy other than Hertl (huge loss) and probably could have won a play in spot to the top 8.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

We were bad before the injuries. The injuries just eliminated any chance of turning it around. Even during November we didn't look that good. Just not the complete train wreck we were in October.

Overall I think we are in the same overall position as last year, 1 long term injury away from a basement dweller. I dont think we have any impact prospects coming this year(maybe next year) and will be relying on 3rd line players who should probably be playing on the 4th line to provide depth scoring.

Overall I think our core plays better and a new system marginally improves our goaltending but we still end up missing the playoffs. Probably finishing 5th or 6th in the division.

You gotta read the premise... It's based on BB being HC from training camp. Sharks sucked early because of Deboer's failures to address the system and motivate the team. They clearly needed someone to yell at them early on in training camp. PDB was fired around Dec 10 or 11. that's 2 months of games he was responsible for.

Leonard and Gregor are not 4th line players. They should be 3rd line just as the coaches see them now. Especially Leonard. Patty is still capable of playing 3rd line as long as he doesn't have to carry it and Nieto is a 3rd line winger as long as he's not the best offensive player on it.

Considering the current division I don't know who you think is realistically finishing ahead of them after the big 3.

 

[TheWayToRefJose]

It wasn't all 3 scouts. And they didn't say what you claim at all. #2 sounds like he's more optimistic about where they are with their prospects this season.

"Scout #2: Their top-five is pretty set — after that, you really don’t know how it’s going to go.
I thought they were reaching with their depth a little more last year than they are this year. I think they’re in better shape this year."

#2 also really like Nieto and thinks he has more to offer with better line mates. Not as a 2nd line player but thinks he has some skill and has now rounded it out as a defensive player.

Only 1 & 2 commented on the long term outlook. Niether seemed to acknowledge the fact that the Sharks lost their top 3 scorers at various points during the season and were coached by an imbecile for the 1st part of the season as well. Frankly I think last years team with BB as HC from training camp and no long term injuries to Couture, Hertl and EK65 and that team makes the playoffs easily. If they won 7 of the games they lost last season they would have been a playoff team. Considering how bad they were at the beginning when everyone was relatively healthy I think that would have been easily achievable prior to all the injuries.

You conveniently left out the “But it’s about the same.” from scout 2 on your first quote.

Scout 1: “Are they that much better than they were last year? Probably not.”

Scout #3: What it tells me: They’re looking to re-group. It’s kind of a lost year. Last year was a lost year. This year, because of the 56 games, it’s a lost year.
They don’t even know if they’re going to play in their building. Are they just writing this off? Hoping to sell some people at the Deadline? That’s what it seems like when I look at this.
If they get in, great, if they don’t, we have our draft picks.”

Seems pretty clear cut and concise that none of the three scouts think SJ will be good next year. Not sure how you’re trying to argue that.

 

[Erep]

They still lacked scoring. Couture missing all that time first, ended their chances for a playoff spot after that atrocious start to the season IMO. They needed other teams to go on big losing streaks to get in. Although considering the stoppage and then 24 team play in... Sharks would have been mostly healthy other than Hertl (huge loss) and probably could have won a play in spot to the top 8.

I'm not talking about when Hertl was shut down for the season. I'm talking about when he was absolutely carrying the team, and Karlsson Vlasic was doing what it was supposed to be doing. The team was 11-2 starting November 5th, including wins against Vegas and NYI. That was well before the Couture injury and they broke above .500 despite the terrible start.

He missed a few games, and came back but was clearly not the same.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

I'm not talking about when Hertl was shut down for the season. I'm talking about when he was absolutely carrying the team, and Karlsson Vlasic was doing what it was supposed to be doing. The team was 11-2 starting November 5th, including wins against Vegas and NYI. That was well before the Couture injury and they broke above .500 despite the terrible start.

He missed a few games, and came back but was clearly not the same.

That was still under PDB though so the system still didn't protect the goalies and they were letting in goals like crazy.

 

[seroes]

You gotta read the premise... It's based on BB being HC from training camp. Sharks sucked early because of Deboer's failures to address the system and motivate the team. They clearly needed someone to yell at them early on in training camp.

Leonard and Gregor are not 4th line players. They should be 3rd line just as the coaches see them now. Especially Leonard. Patty is still capable of playing 3rd line as long as he doesn't have to carry it and Nieto is a 3rd line winger as long as he's not the best offensive player on it.

Considering the current division I don't know who you think is realistically finishing ahead of them after the big 3.

I dont know if BB would have helped much. No one was on the page and our prospects clearly weren't ready. In any case there was no way PDB wasn't gonna be here after taking the sharks to the conference finals.

I would argue Gregor is a 3rd line player and Leonard will need time to adjust to the NHL before he is ready. With all respect to Patty, he is a 4th line player at this point. He has his wheels and nothing else.

I think the Sharks will suffer a big injury and then other teams in our divison will be better than us. I just don't believe in our ability to stay healthy nor our ability to compensate once it happens.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

You conveniently left out the “But it’s about the same.” from scout 2 on your first quote.

Scout 1: “Are they that much better than they were last year? Probably not.”

Scout #3: What it tells me: They’re looking to re-group. It’s kind of a lost year. Last year was a lost year. This year, because of the 56 games, it’s a lost year.
They don’t even know if they’re going to play in their building. Are they just writing this off? Hoping to sell some people at the Deadline? That’s what it seems like when I look at this.
If they get in, great, if they don’t, we have our draft picks.”

Seems pretty clear cut and concise that none of the three scouts think SJ will be good next year. Not sure how you’re trying to argue that.

It wasn't intentional. the spacing in the article is weird. Point still stands. #2 has better opinion of them and how the team is filling out the bottom 6 than the other 2 who clearly have every little if any experience with the Sharks players.

Of course none see them sees the Sharks as a contender (they don't specifically say) but even #3 leaves open the possibility that DW may know what he's doing.
"There’s a plan there somewhere. He’s done this before. He’s had some good success, so I’m not going to write him off.'

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

I dont know if BB would have helped much. No one was on the page and our prospects clearly weren't ready. In any case there was no way PDB wasn't gonna be here after taking the sharks to the conference finals.

I would argue Gregor is a 3rd line player and Leonard will need time to adjust to the NHL before he is ready. With all respect to Patty, he is a 4th line player at this point. He has his wheels and nothing else.

I think the Sharks will suffer a big injury and then other teams in our divison will be better than us. I just don't believe in our ability to stay healthy nor our ability to compensate once it happens.

A coach who was engaged would have lit a fire under the vets, adjusted the system in camp and told DW that the prospects weren't ready. That would have been enough.

I can't speak to injuries but you do you. I think many teams are going to be missing players at various points due to covid. Sharks aren't playing at home for the first month and will be in a bubble which gives them an advantage in keeping covid out of the group. Whichever team limits covids impact the best is going to do better IMO.

 

[Barrie22]

Not only that, even with PDB as coach, and the slow start, the Sharks were playing dominant hockey, and trending toward an easy playoff spot until the Hertl injury.

Hertl was injured on january 29th. Well over a month after deboer was fired.

At no point in that time did the sharks look dominate and trending upwards.

The sharks record when hertl got injured was 22-26-4. And 26th in the league.

Every one wants to blame injuries for the lost season last year, but the sharks sucked with a healthy team and they sucked after the injuries started. In theory and actuality the team just plain outright sucked last season. Injuries did not cause it. The entire team just sucked plain and simple.

 

[Erep]

That was still under PDB though so the system still didn't protect the goalies and they were letting in goals like crazy.

Yeah, my point is healthy, with garbage PDB, and with a slow start, they were still on target to make a playoff spot fairly easily from there.

The injury to Hertl is what broke things. The Sharks absolutely don't need to fix everything that is wrong with the team to easily make the playoffs. They just need to play hard, and smart, and not have catastrophic injuries and they will be closer to competing with STL for 3rd than MIN for 4th. That is without a major improvement on the bottom 6s productivity, or Donato being a 25+ (86 game pace) goal scorer, or Jones/Dubnyk playing like they did years ago.

Obviously teams get hot, and even TB doesn't maintain 11-2 through the season, but the point is, the team was capable of that last year, with all the same roster issues that there still are, and added coach issues. (Yes, Goodrow and Dillon are gone, and that will have some effect, but avoiding a slow 4-11 start should offset it, which is mostly just contingent on coming in the right way, which hopefully BB is able to make happen.)

 

[Erep]

Hertl was injured on january 29th. Well over a month after deboer was fired.

At no point in that time did the sharks look dominate and trending upwards.

I am talking about when he got injured November 19th, and missed games until Novermber 29th. He came back but was clearly not the same.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

Hertl was injured on january 29th. Well over a month after deboer was fired.

At no point in that time did the sharks look dominate and trending upwards.

The sharks record when hertl got injured was 22-26-4. And 26th in the league.

Every one wants to blame injuries for the lost season last year, but the sharks sucked with a healthy team and they sucked after the injuries started. In theory and actuality the team just plain outright sucked last season. Injuries did not cause it. The entire team just sucked plain and simple.

without the injuries I think they still make the playoffs last season considering how much better they were defensively after BB took over. Especially since they just needed to get into the top 24. Lack of offense due to injuries did them in as far as catching up. Like I said, they only needed to turn 7 games from losses to wins. Totally doable out of 70 games. There were a number of games where they were just a goal short.

Yeah, my point is healthy, with garbage PDB, and with a slow start, they were still on target to make a playoff spot fairly easily from there.

The injury to Hertl is what broke things. The Sharks absolutely don't need to fix everything that is wrong with the team to easily make the playoffs. They just need to play hard, and smart, and not have catastrophic injuries and they will be closer to competing with STL for 3rd than MIN for 4th. That is without a major improvement on the bottom 6s productivity, or Donato being a 25+ (86 game pace) goal scorer, or Jones/Dubnyk playing like they did years ago.

Obviously teams get hot, and even TB doesn't maintain 11-2 through the season, but the point is, the team was capable of that last year, with all the same roster issues that there still are, and added coach issues. (Yes, Goodrow and Dillon are gone, and that will have some effect, but avoiding a slow 4-11 start should offset it, which is mostly just contingent on coming in the right way, which hopefully BB is able to make happen.)

No, they weren't. They had one brief run of games where they got back to .500 under PDB then immediately went back in the toilet because they couldn't play defense and jones couldn't stop sucking. The team sucked ass until BB took over. Then they had to adjust to BB and sucked less at defense but then they lost their leading scorer 3 times during BB's coaching tenure which means they lost a shit ton of the little offense they did have.

We're in agreement on this season though. I think best case they challenge for 3rd but 4th should be easily doable if they can avoid major injury for most of the season. I think Vegas and St Louis are being over hyped.

 

[Barrie22]

I am talking about when he got injured November 19th, and missed games until Novermber 29th. He came back but was clearly not the same.

Ok and at the time of that injury the team was 10-11-1. And the team did better while he was gone then when he was healthy before and after the injury.

And at the time of that injury they were at an amazing 22nd in the league. So much dominance. How can they have been so good lol.

 

[Mafoofoo]

Because this team loves to have bittersweet moments, we’re gonna trade Marleau to a team like the Avs and then go on a scorcher where we somehow win the cup while beating the Avs and Leafs.

 

[nabbyfan]

We didn't have enough talent up front last season, and Im still not convinced we do today. This is a team that both struggled to score goals AND keep the puck out of their own net last year, and there haven't been any Roster moves to really seriously address either shortcoming

Last year in the Pacific, only LAK scored fewer goals than us, and nobody let in more goals than us. It was ugly, and I really don't think you can blame it on injuries or PDB. We need more offense and better goaltending. If Donato/Nieto/Dubnyk and a full training camp with Boughner are somehow the answer to those woes, thats awesome, but I think you need to be realistic about our chances this upcoming year. Theres a better than good chance that the Sharks really struggle, but thankfully its only a 56 game slate and we have our first round pick.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

Because this team loves to have bittersweet moments, we’re gonna trade Marleau to a team like the Avs and then go on a scorcher where we somehow win the cup while beating the Avs and Leafs.

But then Marleau still gets his name on the Cup for playing enough games with the Sharks during the RS, Patty's wife tweets a picture of it to Thornton

 

[Barrie22]

But then Marleau still gets his name on the Cup for playing enough games with the Sharks during the RS, Patty's wife tweets a picture of it to Thornton

Thankfully not possible haha

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

Thankfully not possible haha

You just gotta believe! Maybe Jones plays like he did 16

 

[Barrie22]

You just gotta believe! Maybe Jones plays like he did 16

I meant the marleau name on the cup thing.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

Because this team loves to have bittersweet moments, we’re gonna trade Marleau to a team like the Avs and then go on a scorcher where we somehow win the cup while beating the Avs and Leafs.

2020 is over man... that ain't happening.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

We didn't have enough talent up front last season, and Im still not convinced we do today. This is a team that both struggled to score goals AND keep the puck out of their own net last year, and there haven't been any Roster moves to really seriously address either shortcoming

Last year in the Pacific, only LAK scored fewer goals than us, and nobody let in more goals than us. It was ugly, and I really don't think you can blame it on injuries or PDB. We need more offense and better goaltending. If Donato/Nieto/Dubnyk and a full training camp with Boughner are somehow the answer to those woes, thats awesome, but I think you need to be realistic about our chances this upcoming year. Theres a better than good chance that the Sharks really struggle, but thankfully its only a 56 game slate and we have our first round pick.

You most certainly can blame injuries and PDB. It's ridiculous to try and claim it wasn't. The difference in HD chances against was dramatic from PDB to BB. Then BB lost his leading scorer 3 times in only a few months. They went out and got a goalie who they hope returns to something close to his Allstar form and a young player who looks like he could be a 20-25 goal scorer. Also added 2 college players that were pursued by multiple teams. One was the leading goal scorer in college hockey last season. Now BB has a new staff and new system for the team that so far is healthy which most importantly includes EK65 and Hertl. So... yeah. I think a lot of what you're saying is just wrong.

 

[nabbyfan]

So... yeah. I think a lot of what you're saying is just wrong.

I hope it is wrong, Im a Sharks fan. I want us to be a good team.

I just dont see how you can look at this roster as is and think its good enough. There was very little done to improve it in the offseason. I think Donato was a good move and Nieto is trustworthy, but the goal scoring is still not there, and our Goalie tandem is 2 of the worst starters in the NHL from last season. Again, id be ecstatic if Im wrong and we compete, I just think its important to have realistic expectations.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

I hope it is wrong, Im a Sharks fan. I want us to be a good team.

I just dont see how you can look at this roster as is and think its good enough. There was very little done to improve it in the offseason. I think Donato was a good move and Nieto is trustworthy, but the goal scoring is still not there, and our Goalie tandem is 2 of the worst starters in the NHL from last season. Again, id be ecstatic if Im wrong and we compete, I just think its important to have realistic expectations.

Good enough for what? I think it's good enough for 4th in the division considering who they're up against. No more no less. I don't think they're a contender but I don't think they're a basement team with this roster and coaching. We'll find out soon enough. Either way it's a short season so if it's bad we won't have to endure it for long.

 

[sharski]

Will lol if Sharks actually do Ref Jose their way to a cup this year while taking out all the other teams' star players with cheap shots

I'd feel absolutely zero guilt if that happened and leave it up to my therapist to figure out why that is