OT: 2019 Football Thread: Part II – Free Agency and The Draft

[Kovalev27]

they made saquon the face of the franchise last year. forget the position he plays. they picked him knowing he was a generational talent and would be the face. they passed on QBs that would have individually could each have been the face of the franchise. I hate the Jones pick but come on. Tuck Strahan Umenyiora Pierce Taylor Jacobs these guys were beloved Giants by management.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

The Giants had Tiki Barber and Michael Strahan as the faces of the franchise for more than half a decade.

Face of the franchise == quarterback.
Stop being obstuse. If an org really didn't want black players at all, they wouldn't even be able to field a 53 man roster. So thats obviously not the case. Qb is one of the few positions that skews white and a lot of old school guys in charge might want their star qb to be white, even if they don't say it.

Anyway I don't think they didn't draft Haskins just because of that, i mean really there isn't a huge gap between him and Jones he's not an amazing prospect by any means. Would have liked to see what they would have done if Kyler was there at 6 tho

 

[Fitzy]

Face of the franchise == quarterback.
Stop being obstuse. If an org really didn't want black players at all, they wouldn't even be able to field a 53 man roster. So thats obviously not the case. Qb is one of the few positions that skews white and a lot of old school guys in charge might want their star qb to be white, even if they don't say it.

Anyway I don't think they didn't draft Haskins just because of that, i mean really there isn't a huge gap between him and Jones he's not an amazing prospect by any means. Would have liked to see what they would have done if Kyler was there at 6 tho

I mean, I'm not trying to be.

You don't think JJ Watt has been the face of the Texans since 2014? Or that Strahan was the most well known Giant during the Kerry Collins era?

I don't doubt QBs are the face on 50%+ of franchises, but it isn't an absolute thing.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

I mean, I'm not trying to be.

You don't think JJ Watt has been the face of the Texans since 2014? Or that Strahan was the most well known Giant during the Kerry Collins era?

I don't doubt QBs are the face on 50%+ of franchises, but it isn't an absolute thing.

Well, JJ Watt is white, so CHECKMATE SUCKAAAA

 

[duhmetreE]

Is this really a thing? Racism? really?

 

[East Coast Bias]

Is this really a thing? Racism? really?

Yeah it’s definitely a thing. Not sure about this case tho. Big thing tho.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

I mean, I'm not trying to be.

You don't think JJ Watt has been the face of the Texans since 2014? Or that Strahan was the most well known Giant during the Kerry Collins era?

I don't doubt QBs are the face on 50%+ of franchises, but it isn't an absolute thing.

yeah and now that they have a real qb watt has been sorta moved into the background

not that I agree with the racist theory, just saying that if Jones is as good as Gettleman thinks he’s absolutely “the face of the franchise”

 

[LionsHeart]

I'm not comfortable calling Gettleman a racist. That's pure speculation and unfair. Also the Mara's and Tisch's have to approve a pick like that.

That being said, he's certainly a jerk.

On the other side of this, I saw that Max Kellerman and Stephen A Smith kinda walked back and clarified their comments about Daniel Jones. I wonder if they got some backlash thinking that they were going way too far in their attacks on Jones.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

they made saquon the face of the franchise last year. forget the position he plays. they picked him knowing he was a generational talent and would be the face. they passed on QBs that would have individually could each have been the face of the franchise. I hate the Jones pick but come on. Tuck Strahan Umenyiora Pierce Taylor Jacobs these guys were beloved Giants by management.

Agreed.

 

[Bob Richards]

Gettleman and Mara are dumb enough for us to deride without going down these rabbit holes anyway.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Its not necessarily racism. Its just bias.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

Its not necessarily racism. Its just bias.

Wat.

 

[duhmetreE]

Yeah it’s definitely a thing. Not sure about this case tho. Big thing tho.

I was referring to Gettleman and how it seems, people seek ways to be offended

 

[Hunter Gathers]

I am offended by Gettleman's stupidity.

 

[duhmetreE]

I am offended by Gettleman's stupidity.

but you don't have to seek that out.. It's apparently abundant

 

[Hunter Gathers]

but you don't have to seek that out.. It's apparently abundant

I'm just saying, I don't find him racist (or any decision he has made). I find him stupid.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

I'm just saying, I don't find him racist (or any decision he has made). I find him stupid.

In this case, stupidity is a lot simpler of an explanation than racism...

 

[smoneil]

What are you basing this on? He drafted a black RB last year in lieu of a white franchise QB.

I'm certainly not defending Gettleman's job performance, but to call him a racist seems far-fetched. Incompetent, absolutely, but a racist? Seems like sour grapes.

There were rumblings before the draft that a guy like Gettleman is "old school" and wouldn't trust a black quarterback. RB isn't QB

The Giants had Tiki Barber and Michael Strahan as the faces of the franchise for more than half a decade.

I think some of y'all may be on the younger side. For most of the history of the league, the idea was that black players could carry the load, but white players had to have the "glory" positions. Even as that started to come down in the late 80s/early 90s, the two holy grails (as GordonGecko indicated) were QB and head coach--those two spots were RARELY held by black men. There were systemic elements to this as well (seriously--look into the way the Wonderlic test was used to downgrade the draft status of black QBs). It wasn't until guys like Warren Moon, Randall Cunningham, and Steve McNair that the perception started to change, and that change has been SLOW. Thirteen teams in the NFL didn't have their first black QB until after the year 2000. The final hold-out? The last team to FINALLY use a black QB? The New York Giants. In 2017. When they played Geno Smith for two games. There are good reasons for the speculation.

 

[smoneil]

Its not necessarily racism. Its just bias.

Wat.

Too many people assume that to be "racist" you have to throw on a clan robe, get some Nazi tattoos, and burn some crosses. Most of the racism that people encounter in their day to day life is the result of unconscious biases born out of stereotypes in media. The vast majority of the country is pretty segregated, and that contributed to those stereotypes and internalized biases. I would still say that it is a form of racism, but just not the kind of active, hate-fueled, conscious racism that people immediately think about when they hear that term.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

Too many people assume that to be "racist" you have to throw on a clan robe, get some Nazi tattoos, and burn some crosses. Most of the racism that people encounter in their day to day life is the result of unconscious biases born out of stereotypes in media. The vast majority of the country is pretty segregated, and that contributed to those stereotypes and internalized biases. I would still say that it is a form of racism, but just not the kind of active, hate-fueled, conscious racism that people immediately think about when they hear that term.

(To be clear, I agree. That's why I responded as I did.)

 

[smoneil]

Yep. The NFL is a cruel mistress in that regard. Take it from a Jets fan.

If you miss on a QB, especially a high 1st round QB, it sets your franchise back immeasurably.

Even if you draft other young studs, they'll wallow away while your bust QB holds your team back. Best case scenario, you draft another QB before those studs are irrelevant, but they'll be on much higher contracts. You'll lose all value from their rookie deals.

The 09-10 Jets had the best defense in the NFL, best OL in the NFL, best running game in the NFL (large part due to the OL, but good RBs too), and very good weapons.

Had a generational CB drafted in 2007, generational C drafted in 2006, All-Pro LT drafted in 2006, All-Pro MLB drafted in 2006. Other young talent that was drafted that were great/had elite seasons. Leon Washington. Kerry Rhodes.etc. Had great shrewd signings/trades (Moore, Woody, Faneca, Thomas Jones.etc.). Still had some old-school vets playing at a high level in Ellis, Pace.etc. Signed the over-the-top pieces in Bart Scott, Cromartie.etc.

Despite making it to the AFCG twice in first two years, QB busted. Our older players phased out. Our 2006-2007 drafted core wallowed without a QB. Couldn't fully commit to a new QB because he was drafted so high. Resulted in half-assing it and taking a 2nd round QB instead in 2013. Then couldn't commit because the 2nd round QB had a decent game one time.

Missing on Sanchez likely costed the Jets a SB title, and then 7 additional years of garbage teams with no hope towards the future notwithstanding one year of buying a bunch of 30+ year olds to make the playoffs and still missing.

I hope Jones works out for you, and in the alternative, I hope you are brave enough to move on quickly. You can't afford to wallow while the rest of the team (basically Saquon) decomposes.

See, I don't necessarily think they "missed" on Sanchez. He always reminded me of a Neil O'Donnell type. The kind of QB who, if you gave him the weapons, could get you to the Super Bowl, but wouldn't be able to win it by himself. You are exactly right that the team was stacked the two years the Jets went to the AFC title game. What's more, the year they lost to the Steelers, Sanchez actually played MUCH better than Big Ben. The problems didn't start until they started taking parts of that framework away. They let the O-line thin out. The let their RB walk. They replaced some of the guys on D with bargain basement replacements. And then they told Sanchez to go out there and do it all by himself. That was never who he was. They didn't "miss" on Sanchez at the draft. They just effed up when they thought he could be the "Sanchize" rather than the guy who could keep a well-constructed team running. Sanchez driving a great Jets roster = back to back AFC title games. Sanchez trying to do it all himself = butt fumble.

 

[Boris Zubov]

I think some of y'all may be on the younger side. For most of the history of the league, the idea was that black players could carry the load, but white players had to have the "glory" positions. Even as that started to come down in the late 80s/early 90s, the two holy grails (as GordonGecko indicated) were QB and head coach--those two spots were RARELY held by black men. There were systemic elements to this as well (seriously--look into the way the Wonderlic test was used to downgrade the draft status of black QBs). It wasn't until guys like Warren Moon, Randall Cunningham, and Steve McNair that the perception started to change, and that change has been SLOW. Thirteen teams in the NFL didn't have their first black QB until after the year 2000. The final hold-out? The last team to FINALLY use a black QB? The New York Giants. In 2017. When they played Geno Smith for two games. There are good reasons for the speculation.

If you're a grad student in your 20s, I was watching the Giants before you were born. Age has nothing to do with this. Gettleman inherited a black QB in Carolina. If he was remotely a racist, he would've looked to replace Cam. The Social Justice Warrior mentality has taken over & honestly it's embarrassing we're still talking about this.

 

[smoneil]

If you're a grad student in your 20s, I was watching the Giants before you were born. Age has nothing to do with this. Gettleman inherited a black QB in Carolina. If he was remotely a racist, he would've looked to replace Cam. The Social Justice Warrior mentality has taken over & honestly it's embarrassing we're still talking about this.

I’m a career changer, actually. I was a sports-writer before going into education and pursuing a PhD (which I’m finishing next month). I’m 39. I’ve seen the problems the NFL has had and continues to have regarding race, particularly in the high visibility positions. It isn’t an opinion; it is a documented matter of recent historical fact. Deciding not to “talk about it” when it is clearly still a problem may make you feel better, but for the people who still deal with the fallout, that kind of attitude is mighty dismissive.

And for the record, I brought up age NOT to be dismissive of “kids these days,” but instead because this was a major topic of conversation in the 1990s. And that decision to talk about taboo things like racism in the NFL led to change (see the large number of teams that hired black coaches and QBs for the first time in their history post-2000).

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

I’m a career changer, actually. I was a sports-writer before going into education and pursuing a PhD (which I’m finishing next month). I’m 39. I’ve seen the problems the NFL has had and continues to have regarding race, particularly in the high visibility positions. It isn’t an opinion; it is a documented matter of recent historical fact. Deciding not to “talk about it” when it is clearly still a problem may make you feel better, but for the people who still deal with the fallout, that kind of attitude is mighty dismissive.

And for the record, I brought up age NOT to be dismissive of “kids these days,” but instead because this was a major topic of conversation in the 1990s. And that decision to talk about taboo things like racism in the NFL led to change (see the large number of teams that hired black coaches and QBs for the first time in their history post-2000).

Wouldn’t this, plus the iron man Eli Manning era starting in 2004 be a much bigger explanation of why it took so long for the Giants to “finally” have a black QB? Vs the veiled accusation you are making that the NYG are a racist franchise? You’re trying to connect a lot of things RE the NYG that you want to be true, but the evidence to do so is a bit scant. Incompetence by Gettleman is a much simpler explanation.

 

[smoneil]

Wouldn’t this, plus the iron man Eli Manning era starting in 2004 be a much bigger explanation of why it took so long for the Giants to “finally” have a black QB? Vs the veiled accusation you are making that the NYG are a racist franchise? You’re trying to connect a lot of things RE the NYG that you want to be true, but the evidence to do so is a bit scant. Incompetence by Gettleman is a much simpler explanation.

The New York Giants, taking regular season and playoffs into account, have played 1,370 games. A black quarterback started 2 of them. That appalling number is part of the history of racism in the game. The disconnect, I think, goes back to the point someone made earlier between Racism (note the capital R) and bias (or lower-case "r" racism). The latter, particularly in this country, is borderline universal. Frankly, I tend doubt people's motivations when they insist that they "don't have a racist bone in their body" or "don't see color" or yes, that we "don't need to talk about this in 2019."

In order to make any real progress on institutional racism, we need to address these often unconscious racist biases. You see what I wrote above as a "veiled accusation" based on what I "want to be true." I don't see what's all that controversial about what I said: That I can see how a 67 year old GM in a league with a long-standing history of internalized racism ESPECIALLY at that position, might have made an instinctual decision that was to some degree inflected by his internalized biases about race. Frankly, such biases might be part of the REASON for his incompetence.