GDT: 2018 NLWC - Colorado Rockies @ Chicago Cubs - 10/2 @ 8:05 PM

[Otto]

Jon Lester?

They were loaded with good young talent and some really solid players. 2015 was KBIB's first year but he was a highly touted prospect that made an immediate impact as an all-star and ROY winner. The 2015 season is probably the one where you could say Maddon did a good job getting the most out of his team and exceeded expectations. 2016 they were stacked with a lot of guys having career years they haven't replicated. They won it all so yeah, pat on the back there.

Prospects are just that.. until they actually perform. Lester best season was 5 years previous, and wasn't all that great in '15. Arrietta was pretty good in '14, but prior to that he was horrible. Hendricks was going into year 2, with a good sowing in '14. Montero hit poorly in '13 and '14.

I don't think anyone looked at the 2015 Cubs roster at the beginning of the season and said they were "loaded"

2017 and 2018 were pretty big failures though.

Another division win in 2017 92 wins, from a team that is being implied that they over achieved the year before. And an improvement on the wins in 2018, coming very close to another division, 4th straight playoff appearance... despite their former MVP missing almost half the season, their #2 starter playing only 8 games, and their 1st and 2nd closers missing significant time... ya big disappointment... some people just cannot be pleased I guess.

There's no shortage of teams that would love to experience this level of "disappointment"

 

[Duke33]

i mean i doubt he'd say anything different though.

I don't buy it. Every contender has had to deal with injury issues. The Cubs even going back to last year seemed very lackadaisical about wanting to repeat. Almost like the division would eventually just fall in their lap.

Heard on the radio that the Cubs scored one or zero runs in 39 games this year. That's staggering for a team with that lineup. Only the 44-win Orioles had more of those games.

This team overall has just seemed very complacent and the year end results bear that out. The hungrier team(s) beat them out.

 

[Terry Yake]

the cubs are pretty stacked minus the bullpen

anything less than an LCS appearance for a team of that caliber is a disappointment, let alone losing to the rockies in the WC game

 

[bluesfan94]

Rockies-Brewers is going to be a ton of fun. Two great fanbases and I love watching small markets doing well.

It's funny that Denver is considered a small market but St. Louis isn't.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Prospects are just that.. until they actually perform. Lester best season was 5 years previous, and wasn't all that great in '15. Arrietta was pretty good in '14, but prior to that he was horrible. Hendricks was going into year 2, with a good sowing in '14. Montero hit poorly in '13 and '14.

I don't think anyone looked at the 2015 Cubs roster at the beginning of the season and said they were "loaded"



Another division win in 2017 92 wins, from a team that is being implied that they over achieved the year before. And an improvement on the wins in 2018, coming very close to another division, 4th straight playoff appearance... despite their former MVP missing almost half the season, their #2 starter playing only 8 games, and their 1st and 2nd closers missing significant time... ya big disappointment... some people just cannot be pleased I guess.

There's no shortage of teams that would love to experience this level of "disappointment"

You’re moving goalposts and mixing and matching years. You said no one else on the 15 roster was talented other than Rizzo. Who cares what those players did two and theee years before?

Jon Lester is a very good pitcher. KB had an excellent year as a rookie. Dexter Fowler was a solid if unspectacular player. As mentioned, Arrieta pitches well. It wasn’t a team of scrubs. They probably arrived a year earlier than expected. I even said they overachieved that year. 2016 they were dominant but had to gut out the WS win against a depleted Indians team that choked it away. But whatever, they won. I’m not gonna discount anything there but they performed up to standards. Last year they got curb stomped by the Dodgers after barely managing to squeak out a victory against the Nationals who also choked it away. This year they lose two win and you’re in games at home to close out the season scoring only two runs. That’s the definition of going out with a whimper

 

[Voight]

 

[Voight]

Prospects are just that.. until they actually perform. Lester best season was 5 years previous, and wasn't all that great in '15. Arrietta was pretty good in '14, but prior to that he was horrible. Hendricks was going into year 2, with a good sowing in '14. Montero hit poorly in '13 and '14.

I don't think anyone looked at the 2015 Cubs roster at the beginning of the season and said they were "loaded"



Another division win in 2017 92 wins, from a team that is being implied that they over achieved the year before. And an improvement on the wins in 2018, coming very close to another division, 4th straight playoff appearance... despite their former MVP missing almost half the season, their #2 starter playing only 8 games, and their 1st and 2nd closers missing significant time... ya big disappointment... some people just cannot be pleased I guess.

There's no shortage of teams that would love to experience this level of "disappointment"

They added a major free agent and then traded for another very good player. That why this season is a disappointment - when you make moves like that but lose in the wild card game, while still having the same core that won you a championship.

 

[Alex Jones]

It's funny that Denver is considered a small market but St. Louis isn't.

Even if the size of the market in abstract terms may be larger for the Rockies, they have never had the income nor the payroll of the Cardinals.

 

[bluesfan94]

Even if the size of the market in abstract terms may be larger for the Rockies, they have never had the income nor the payroll of the Cardinals.

No I understand the why of it, it’s just funny how that works out.

 

[Otto]

You’re moving goalposts and mixing and matching years. You said no one else on the 15 roster was talented other than Rizzo. Who cares what those players did two and theee years before?

Jon Lester is a very good pitcher. KB had an excellent year as a rookie. Dexter Fowler was a solid if unspectacular player. As mentioned, Arrieta pitches well. It wasn’t a team of scrubs. They probably arrived a year earlier than expected. I even said they overachieved that year. 2016 they were dominant but had to gut out the WS win against a depleted Indians team that choked it away. But whatever, they won. I’m not gonna discount anything there but they performed up to standards. Last year they got curb stomped by the Dodgers after barely managing to squeak out a victory against the Nationals who also choked it away. This year they lose two win and you’re in games at home to close out the season scoring only two runs. That’s the definition of going out with a whimper

I'm not moving anything, it was said that Maddon benefited from having a loaded team, I'm pointing out how '15 wasn't loaded at all. It takes a strong manager to pull that much unproven talent and do what they did in '15.

It's funny though, above when it was pointed out the losses the Cubs suffered this year it was said "Every contender has had to deal with injury issues" but you say the Indians were "depleted" in '16 .. so which is it. Also, I could be wrong, and if someone can correct me please feel free, but I don't think that any team had their #2 starter play only 8 games, PLUS a former MVP miss almost half the season, PLUS have two closers shut down for significant time... I'm not making excuses for them losing, but to be missing that much.... play as poorly as they did.... and STILL make the playoffs, is pretty damn good.

You also mention the Indians & Nationals "choking away" their series... but credit has to be given to the team that takes advantage of the opponents mistakes in any sport. "I don't subscribe to the theory that one team sucked so the other team didn't deserve to win"

Facts don't lie, Maddon has the best record among managers over the last 4 seasons. With Matheny gone only Dave Roberts has a higher win% among Active managers (315+ games played). Does he make mistakes? Sure, everyone does. But he's also done pretty good at taking risks as well. He was laughed at when he used Rizzo as a leadoff hitter, but Rizzo ended up breaking out of his slump and it started the Cubs on a nice little win streak. When he put Travis Wood in to pitch two years ago, them moved him to left, then back in to pitch. And had Jon Lester lay down a 2 strike pinch hit bunt in the bottom of the 12th to bring in the winning run... crazy? Yup.. but it worked. Not a lot of managers are willing to think outside the box. If the Cubs had won against the Rockies no one would be talking about Rizzo being on the bench for Gore, they'd be talking about Blackmon on the bench for Colorado.

Lastly, here's a couple of links that make for interesting reading
What went wrong for the 2018 Cubs? Allow Javy Baez to explain...
Rozner: This time, blaming the Chicago Cubs' Joe Maddon is unfair

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

I'm not moving anything, it was said that Maddon benefited from having a loaded team, I'm pointing out how '15 wasn't loaded at all. It takes a strong manager to pull that much unproven talent and do what they did in '15.

It's funny though, above when it was pointed out the losses the Cubs suffered this year it was said "Every contender has had to deal with injury issues" but you say the Indians were "depleted" in '16 .. so which is it. Also, I could be wrong, and if someone can correct me please feel free, but I don't think that any team had their #2 starter play only 8 games, PLUS a former MVP miss almost half the season, PLUS have two closers shut down for significant time... I'm not making excuses for them losing, but to be missing that much.... play as poorly as they did.... and STILL make the playoffs, is pretty damn good.

You also mention the Indians & Nationals "choking away" their series... but credit has to be given to the team that takes advantage of the opponents mistakes in any sport. "I don't subscribe to the theory that one team sucked so the other team didn't deserve to win"

Facts don't lie, Maddon has the best record among managers over the last 4 seasons. With Matheny gone only Dave Roberts has a higher win% among Active managers (315+ games played). Does he make mistakes? Sure, everyone does. But he's also done pretty good at taking risks as well. He was laughed at when he used Rizzo as a leadoff hitter, but Rizzo ended up breaking out of his slump and it started the Cubs on a nice little win streak. When he put Travis Wood in to pitch two years ago, them moved him to left, then back in to pitch. And had Jon Lester lay down a 2 strike pinch hit bunt in the bottom of the 12th to bring in the winning run... crazy? Yup.. but it worked. Not a lot of managers are willing to think outside the box. If the Cubs had won against the Rockies no one would be talking about Rizzo being on the bench for Gore, they'd be talking about Blackmon on the bench for Colorado.

Lastly, here's a couple of links that make for interesting reading
What went wrong for the 2018 Cubs? Allow Javy Baez to explain...
Rozner: This time, blaming the Chicago Cubs' Joe Maddon is unfair

I fully admitted that in 2015 Maddon did a good job and the Cubs played a bit over their head and showed up a year earlier than expected. Just because they had some question marks in the their lineup it doesn't mean they were devoid of talent. KB was a rookie, well guess what he's a hell of a ball player *shudder* so I don't think Maddon really has much to do with that.

Yes, of course the Cubs won those series against the Nats and Indians, good for them. I mean that. I'm not saying they didn't deserve it, but it doesn't change the fact that both teams choked it away. Same with the Texas Rangers and my Jays in 2015. Texas choked. Jays took advantage but it doesn't make the Jays some powerhouse. They were able to win the series because Texas couldn't close the door, same with the Indians and Nats.

As for the injury thing, yeah, the Cubs got hit this year. Cleveland got hit worse in 2016. Michael Brantley had 11 fwar over the two seasons before that and he only played 8 games all year. They didn't have Carrasco and Salazar who were their number 2 and 3 starters. Trevor Bauer, their no. 4, droned himself in the playoffs and had to be removed from the game against Toronto in the ALCS. They still rolled over Boston and the Jays. They didn't have the luxury of having a Hamels or Hendricks coming out of the pen in a winner take all.

No one is saying Maddon is terrible, maybe people are piling on him now but he makes some head scratching decisions in big moments. He's not some genius like Belichick who dominates and outsmarts his counterparts. He's compiled a lot of wins in the last 4 regular seasons with a super star team. Like I said, 2015 he did a great job putting together a bunch of pieces that while talented were a bit unknown at the time. 2016 the Cubs were a powerhouse and he did as expected. Yeah they got some luck along the way. That's fine, it's sports. Last year they barely survived Washington and got destroyed by LA. This year the game 163 and WC performances were embarrassing especially on home turf. I don't think anything I've said is unfair.

 

[Vamos Rafa]

Baez is a nice player but he just can't be the best player on your team if you want to be a serious championship contender.

 

[Otto]

I fully admitted that in 2015 Maddon did a good job and the Cubs played a bit over their head and showed up a year earlier than expected. Just because they had some question marks in the their lineup it doesn't mean they were devoid of talent. KB was a rookie, well guess what he's a hell of a ball player *shudder* so I don't think Maddon really has much to do with that.

Yes, of course the Cubs won those series against the Nats and Indians, good for them. I mean that. I'm not saying they didn't deserve it, but it doesn't change the fact that both teams choked it away. Same with the Texas Rangers and my Jays in 2015. Texas choked. Jays took advantage but it doesn't make the Jays some powerhouse. They were able to win the series because Texas couldn't close the door, same with the Indians and Nats.

As for the injury thing, yeah, the Cubs got hit this year. Cleveland got hit worse in 2016. Michael Brantley had 11 fwar over the two seasons before that and he only played 8 games all year. They didn't have Carrasco and Salazar who were their number 2 and 3 starters. Trevor Bauer, their no. 4, droned himself in the playoffs and had to be removed from the game against Toronto in the ALCS. They still rolled over Boston and the Jays. They didn't have the luxury of having a Hamels or Hendricks coming out of the pen in a winner take all.

No one is saying Maddon is terrible, maybe people are piling on him now but he makes some head scratching decisions in big moments. He's not some genius like Belichick who dominates and outsmarts his counterparts. He's compiled a lot of wins in the last 4 regular seasons with a super star team. Like I said, 2015 he did a great job putting together a bunch of pieces that while talented were a bit unknown at the time. 2016 the Cubs were a powerhouse and he did as expected. Yeah they got some luck along the way. That's fine, it's sports. Last year they barely survived Washington and got destroyed by LA. This year the game 163 and WC performances were embarrassing especially on home turf. I don't think anything I've said is unfair.

Curious, what do you think of Mike Babcock, is he one of the best in the game? What were your thoughts on Roger Neilson?

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Curious, what do you think of Mike Babcock, is he one of the best in the game? What were your thoughts on Roger Neilson?

I think Babcock is overrated as hell. I can’t say I’ve watched enough games that Neilson coaches to really have an opinion on him.

 

[Otto]

I think Babcock is overrated as hell. I can’t say I’ve watched enough games that Neilson coaches to really have an opinion on him.

So in your opinion what makes a smart manager? What does it take to be considered one of the best in the game?

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

So in your opinion what makes a smart manager? What does it take to be considered one of the best in the game?

Putting your players in a situation to succeed. Looking at the skill sets of your team and making a game plan around that rather than trying to shoehorn strategies or situations because that’s the way you think it should be done.

Again, I don’t think Maddon is a bad manager but he sure makes a lot of idiot decisions trying to be the smartest guy in the room.

 

[Dr Pepper]

Man, did that ever age well.

 

[Halladay]

Not that Jake was great with the Phillies, but the Cubs made a terrible mistake signing Darvish over him.

 

[Otto]

Not that Jake was great with the Phillies, but the Cubs made a terrible mistake signing Darvish over him.

Jake turned down the money. I believe he eventually signed with the Phillies for less money.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Jake turned down the money. I believe he eventually signed with the Phillies for less money.

Cubs offered 6/120 and Jake signed in Philly for 3/75 so 5 mil more AAV with some option years as well.

 

[Otto]

Cubs offered 6/120 and Jake signed in Philly for 3/75 so 5 mil more AAV with some option years as well.

Time will tell... depends what Jake gets in years 4-6 ... but his offer was pretty much the same as Darvish

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Time will tell... depends what Jake gets in years 4-6 ... but his offer was pretty much the same as Darvish

Yeah, pretty close. Darvish is 6/126. I think Jake took less term but higher AAV because he wants to bet on himself and thinks that over the course of the contract his value will maintain or increase so would end up with more money overall than the 120/6 that the Cubs offered.

Think about it this way, Jake would only have to make more than 3/45 on his next contract for him to surpass the 6/120 from the Cubs. Mike Leake made 17 mil this past year and he kind of stinks.