GDT: 2018 IIHF World Junior Hockey Championships

[Freaky Styley]

The thing that impresses me the most about Makar and Timmins is their hockey sense. That's how you know they will be successful at the NHL level. Timmins' ability to read the play both offensively and defensively is amazing, and as he improves his physical skills he will just keep getting better (and more confidence, which must be skyrocketing right now). Makar just never makes a poor decision with the puck. He has an intention every time it's on his stick, makes the right play (or tries to) and usually does it with authority.

If we find a goalie I can trust in the playoffs and perhaps a more experienced coach (two large, but doable ifs), this team could really be a contender in short order.

 

[McMetal]

How can Ducharme have done a terrible job if he won gold? I mean, if he had played Makar 30 minutes a night, could he have won two golds? He's not there to make Avs fans happy, he's there to win, and he did. It's impossible to have higher expectations of him than what he actually achieved here.

 

[Foppa2118]

This ends justify the means argument doesn't hold any water.

By that same logic, if they would have lost in OT, does that mean all of a sudden Ducharme was wrong for benching Makar? That's the only difference between being right and wrong? One potentially flukey OT goal?

I'm sure those claiming he was just doing what he had to do to win, would then all of a sudden reverse their claim, just based on the result right? I doubt it.

Everyone with two eyes should be able to see that Ducharme’s player usage wasn’t based on performance, or what helped him win the most. If it were based on what helped the team win, Jake Bean wouldn’t have played more than Makar in every game except the Swiss and Slovak games.

Bean was terrible the whole tournament. With and without the puck. Meanwhile Makar finished with 8 points to Bean’s 3, looked solid defensively, and Ducharme showed he had no problem playing him on the left side. Literally no reason imaginable to play Bean over Makar, if you’re just doing what you have to do to win.

There are two things that happened. Canada won gold because they played the best hockey, and since it was 1-1 with two minutes left in the 3rd, the primary reason is Tmmins heads up pass for the game winner.

The other thing that happened was Ducharme benched the guy who became the team's leading scorer halfway through the second to last game (before Kyrou and Steele passed him later on). They couldn't score on the power play, or get shots through on net, and he still wouldn't play their best PPQB by far.

Conflating those two things doesn't make any rationale sense.

Benching your leading scorer for almost the entire tournament is not a recipe for winning a gold metal I don't care what anyone says. They won despite Makar's usage, because they're Team friggin Canada and they were the best team.

Claiming the gold metal proves Canada won because Makar was sitting on the bench, is about as silly as saying the Avs won in 2001 because Forsberg had his spleen removed.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

That's just silly. If Makar was a prospect of any other team you wouldn't care.


Ducharme coached very well and led a less talented Canadian team to Gold. Simple as that.

 

[Foppa2118]

That's just silly. If Makar was a prospect of any other team you wouldn't care.


Ducharme coached very well and led a less talented Canadian team to Gold. Simple as that.

Since when do the entire TSN broadcast team care about Avalanche prospects? Ferraro, McKenzie, O'Neil, and Duthie were all ready to single Makar's usage out as the biggest blunder of the tournement. They complained about it for multiple games, and Ferraro was dumfounded that he didn't start him on the PP in the 3rd period against the Swedes.

Once again, conflating the gold metal, with Makar's usage doesn't make any sense whatsoever. It's a terrible argument to justify Ducharme player usage. If you want to make that argument, then explain to me how playing Bean more than Makar in practically every game helped them win?

 

[McMetal]

This ends justify the means argument doesn't hold any water.

By that same logic, if they would have lost in OT, does that mean all of a sudden Ducharme was wrong for benching Makar? That's the only difference between being right and wrong? One potentially flukey OT goal?

I'm sure those claiming he was just doing what he had to do to win, would then all of a sudden reverse their claim, just based on the result right? I doubt it.

Everyone with two eyes should be able to see that Ducharme’s player usage wasn’t based on performance, or what helped him win the most. If it were based on what helped the team win, Jake Bean wouldn’t have played more than Makar in every game except the Swiss and Slovak games.

Bean was terrible the whole tournament. With and without the puck. Meanwhile Makar finished with 8 points to Bean’s 3, looked solid defensively, and Ducharme showed he had no problem playing him on the left side. Literally no reason imaginable to play Bean over Makar, if you’re just doing what you have to do to win.

There are two things that happened. Canada won gold because they played the best hockey, and since it was 1-1 with two minutes left in the 3rd, the primary reason is Tmmins heads up pass for the game winner.

The other thing that happened was Ducharme benched the guy who became the team's leading scorer halfway through the second to last game (before Kyrou and Steele passed him later on). They couldn't score on the power play, or get shots through on net, and he still wouldn't play their best PPQB by far.

Conflating those two things doesn't make any rationale sense.

Benching your leading scorer for almost the entire tournament is not a recipe for winning a gold metal I don't care what anyone says. They won despite Makar's usage, because they're Team friggin Canada and they were the best team.

Claiming the gold metal proves Canada won because Makar was sitting on the bench, is about as silly as saying the Avs won in 2001 because Forsberg had his spleen removed.

I promise you, when Hockey Canada sat Ducharme down for a job interview, they did not say "Hey, whatever you do, you need to make sure your player usage makes everybody happy, OK? We wouldn't want any NHL team to be upset because their top prospect didn't get enough PT, so even if you don't win gold, just make sure nobody can be angry at you."

What they did tell him was "Win gold, we're Canada and we want gold, I don't care how you do it, just don't come in second." His job description was to win gold, and he literally could not have done a better job, because he won gold. There is literally no higher team accomplishment he could have gotten at the WJC, because "Make sure Avs fans aren't upset" wasn't remotely on his list of things to do.

Honestly, we should be talking about Timmins more than Makar. His defensive play through the tournament absolutely won over the coaches and he was the best all-around D for team Canada. He played a responsible game in all three zones and managed to back up his strong defensive game with some key moments offensively. Calling him an offensive defenseman is definitely a misnomer, all he needs is slightly better skating and he'll easily be a top 4 NHL D maybe even top 2.

 

[avsfan09]

To say a guy couldn't have done a better job because he succeeded is a poor way of looking at things @McMetal
There are always details that can be improved and there are times that bad coaches have won as well. I think Ducharme is a quality coach but the complaints against his player usage seem justified. It's hard to argue that Makar didn't deserve more ice time.

 

[Taak19]

Interesting to see what happens with the Olympics and any Avs prospects.

Hockey Canada has full support of CHL, giving junior players green light for Olympics | The Hockey News

 

[member 116861]

Interesting to see what happens with the Olympics and any Avs prospects.

Hockey Canada has full support of CHL, giving junior players green light for Olympics | The Hockey News

Conor Timmins deserves to be in the Olympics

 

[McMetal]

To say a guy couldn't have done a better job because he succeeded is a poor way of looking at things @McMetal
There are always details that can be improved and there are times that bad coaches have won as well. I think Ducharme is a quality coach but the complaints against his player usage seem justified. It's hard to argue that Makar didn't deserve more ice time.

All I'm saying is that if your job description is to win a tournament, and you win the tournament, it's really, really hard to turn around and say "You did a bad job".

 

[Foppa2118]

All I'm saying is that if your job description is to win a tournament, and you win the tournament, it's really, really hard to turn around and say "You did a bad job".

Problem is nobody is saying he did a bad job. The argument being made to support his decision to bench Makar, only makes sense if someone were making a blanket negative statement like that.

What is being said, is that there was no justifiable reason to play Makar like the 6th or 7th defenseman, specifically behind Jake Bean most the tournement. Nobody can make an argument for how that helped them win. Makar had 5 more points playing on both the right and the left side, and Bean made multiple blunders with and without the puck.

The gold metal has nothing to do with Ducharme benching Makar most the tournament. For the same reason that Jordan Kyrou shouldn't break his stick every shift, because he scored immediately afterward, and Sweden shouldn't have played Dahlin 8:31 like Makar, just because they lost.

These are separate events. You can make stupid mistakes and still have success.

 

[McMetal]

Problem is nobody is saying he did a bad job. The argument being made to support his decision to bench Makar, only makes sense if someone were making a blanket negative statement like that.

What is being said, is that there was no justifiable reason to play Makar like the 6th or 7th defenseman, specifically behind Jake Bean most the tournement. Nobody can make an argument for how that helped them win. Makar had 5 more points playing on both the right and the left side, and Bean made multiple blunders with and without the puck.

The gold metal has nothing to do with Ducharme benching Makar most the tournament. For the same reason that Jordan Kyrou shouldn't break his stick every shift, because he scored immediately afterward, and Sweden shouldn't have played Dahlin 8:31 like Makar, just because they lost.

These are separate events. You can make stupid mistakes and still have success.

Maybe, just maybe, he has a strange idea that points aren't the only thing a defenseman is there to provide? Makar plays a riskier game than Timmins, maybe he was put off a little bit by that and that's why he was hesitant to use him 5v5. I don't blame a coach for using reliable players over high event ones in a short tournament.

 

[Balthazar]

Problem is nobody is saying he did a bad job. The argument being made to support his decision to bench Makar, only makes sense if someone were making a blanket negative statement like that..

Did you skip the parts where it was explained why he benched Makar? He didn't bench Cale Makar, he benched his 7th defenseman because that was the plan from day one. On day one he said he'd not change his pairings and lines. He stuck to his plan and won the gold.

It has nothing to do with Makar, who he said was a top player on his team.

Is that clear enough?

 

[tigervixxxen]

Maybe, just maybe, he has a strange idea that points aren't the only thing a defenseman is there to provide? Makar plays a riskier game than Timmins, maybe he was put off a little bit by that and that's why he was hesitant to use him 5v5. I don't blame a coach for using reliable players over high event ones in a short tournament.

There's nobody who watched the tournament who wouldn't describe the play of Fabbro, Clague and Bean as anything but high event.

 

[McMetal]

There's nobody who watched the tournament who wouldn't describe the play of Fabbro, Clague and Bean as anything but high event.

Fair point, but Fabbro and Bean were returning players who they were familiar with. We all know coaches like players whose inconsistencies are at least familiar. And Clague did make mistakes out there, but there's no proof that Makar would not have made any mistakes given the same usage.

 

[Foppa2118]

Did you skip the parts where it was explained why he benched Makar? He didn't bench Cale Makar, he benched his 7th defenseman because that was the plan from day one. On day one he said he'd not change his pairings and lines. He stuck to his plan and won the gold.

It has nothing to do with Makar, who he said was a top player on his team.

Is that clear enough?

Man, these are some of the worst arguments. So keeping Makar as the 6th/7th defenseman when he leads the entire team in points the game prior, is playing solid defense on both the right and left side, while Bean and Clague struggle almost very game, Foote struggles to move the puck every game, Fabbro and Mete are banged up, and it's 1-1 and you're scoreless on the PP in the gold medal game, unable to get shots on net, and it was the right decisions simply because that was his plan before the tournament even started?

So you're arguing that not adjusting your strategy despite overwhelming evidence that you should is a good decision? Supported only by the fact that Timmins made a great play with less than two minutes in the third period of the gold medal game? If they lose in OT how do you make that argument?

 

[Balthazar]

Man, you guys have the worst arguments. So keeping Makar as the 6th/7th defenseman when he leads the entire team in points, is playing solid defense on both the right and left side, while Bean and Clague struggle almost very game, Foote struggles to move the puck every game, Fabbro and Mete are banged up, and it's 1-1 and you're scoreless on the PP in the gold medal game, unable to get shots on net, and it was the right decisions simply because that was his plan before the tournament even started?

So you're arguing that not adjusting your strategy despite overwhelming evidence that you should is a good decision? Supported only by the fact that Timmins made a great play with less than two minutes in the third period of the gold medal game? If they lose in OT how do you make that argument?

I'm not arguing anything, I'm simply telling you the reason why he did that. He's also a great coach with a great track record.

 

[Balthazar]

Gallant is having success in Vegas not because he dresses the best players in the NHL, but because he made lines and pairings that made sense to him and stuck with them. Ducharme is the same kind of coach.

 

[Foppa2118]

Maybe, just maybe, he has a strange idea that points aren't the only thing a defenseman is there to provide? Makar plays a riskier game than Timmins, maybe he was put off a little bit by that and that's why he was hesitant to use him 5v5. I don't blame a coach for using reliable players over high event ones in a short tournament.

If that's the reason, how does it explain Bean and Clague being played so much more, while making so many more mistakes?

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

I seriously cant fathom how winning the gold medal is a "poor argument" for why Ducharme did a great job as coach.


That's literally the one and only goal of the tournament ffs. He did exactly that.


Your Avs bias showed from the very first game when you started pissing on Ducharme cause Makar was the 7th D in game 1 and has just continued through the entire tournament despite the team accomplishing the one thing it set out to accomplish.

 

[avsfan09]

All I'm saying is that if your job description is to win a tournament, and you win the tournament, it's really, really hard to turn around and say "You did a bad job".

That's fair. I think only a select few were that hyperbolic though.

 

[Foppa2118]

I seriously cant fathom how winning the gold medal is a "poor argument" for why Ducharme did a great job as coach.


That's literally the one and only goal of the tournament ffs. He did exactly that.


Your Avs bias showed from the very first game when you started pissing on Ducharme cause Makar was the 7th D in game 1 and has just continued through the entire tournament despite the team accomplishing the one thing it set out to accomplish.

Once again, do Ferraro, McKenzie, O'Neil, and Duthie have an Avalanche bias? They criticized Makar's usage practically every game, including the gold medal game.

You can keep making this about me if you want, but I still haven't seen you make one attempt to explain how playing Bean or Clague over Makar helped them win gold. Or how you could make the same argument if they lost in OT.

The Avs won the Cup with Forsberg sitting in the stands. I suppose you think that helped them win, because that's the only goal of the playoffs?

 

[Balthazar]

Once again, do Ferraro, McKenzie, O'Neil, and Duthie have an Avalanche bias?

 

[Foppa2118]

I don't know what that's supposed to tell me. I could go back and find multiple videos of McKenzie singling out how well Makar was playing, and that he's not sure why he isn't being played more.

I'm also not sure why you guys have shifted the goal posts from this being about Ducharme's usage of Makar, to being about whether Ducharme is a good or bad coach in general. Well actually I do know that. You can make a case for one, you can't for the other.

 

[Piestany88]

I seriously cant fathom how winning the gold medal is a "poor argument" for why Ducharme did a great job as coach.


That's literally the one and only goal of the tournament ffs. He did exactly that.


Your Avs bias showed from the very first game when you started pissing on Ducharme cause Makar was the 7th D in game 1 and has just continued through the entire tournament despite the team accomplishing the one thing it set out to accomplish.

Canada is expected to win gold regardless of who's coaching