2018-19 stats and underlying metrics thread

Whileee

Registered User
May 29, 2010
46,075
33,132
It’s time to stop talking about analytics

Has the bearings to be an interesting article and series on what the purpose of analytics truly should be when you’re not just scraping its surface.
Thanks for the link. It's an interesting article, and I agree with a lot of it. "Analytics" and "advanced stats" are used way too much in the hockey domain, with imprecise meanings. Most of the stats that are used aren't "advanced" at all, and as the article points out, analysis is a tool to make better decisions, not an end product that has much value.

"Decision science" is a better construct for why one would conduct statistical analysis, and it begins with asking better questions. It also requires a healthy understanding of the limitations of statistics, potential biases, and a health appreciation for complexity. The real leap forward in "decision science" vis-a-vis hockey will be when there is iterative learning that involves forming hypotheses based on good analysis, testing those hypotheses with systems adjustments, roster compositions and combinations, etc. and analyzing the subsequent results through a continuous learning cycle. NHL hockey is a very long ways away from that, but then so is "hockey analytics" at this point.
 

WPGChief

Registered User
May 25, 2017
1,340
3,743
Winnipeg
jetsnation.ca
Thanks for the link. It's an interesting article, and I agree with a lot of it. "Analytics" and "advanced stats" are used way too much in the hockey domain, with imprecise meanings. Most of the stats that are used aren't "advanced" at all, and as the article points out, analysis is a tool to make better decisions, not an end product that has much value.

"Decision science" is a better construct for why one would conduct statistical analysis, and it begins with asking better questions. It also requires a healthy understanding of the limitations of statistics, potential biases, and a health appreciation for complexity. The real leap forward in "decision science" vis-a-vis hockey will be when there is iterative learning that involves forming hypotheses based on good analysis, testing those hypotheses with systems adjustments, roster compositions and combinations, etc. and analyzing the subsequent results through a continuous learning cycle. NHL hockey is a very long ways away from that, but then so is "hockey analytics" at this point.
Careful - it's a toolbox, not just a tool. ;)

Of course, I do agree with a bunch of what you said. Analytics in its most basic form still has a ways to go to get to the level achieved in baseball, basketball, and now even football. I find it hard to believe that it is 'a very long ways away' though - it's more so the willingness to experiment and the actual understanding that is a very long ways away. But now we're seeing Carolina take another step forward. Pittsburgh worked with Sam Ventura as a consultant for a long time before finally hiring him on full-time as a Director. Washington has had Tim Barnes for quite some time and has partnered with several more analytics oriented companies, such as our very own Garret's. In Feburary 2015, ESPN's Craig Custance wrote that Chicago Blackhawks were one of the top teams in utilizing analytics (though I'm skeptical on its lengths) and that the Bruins, Sabres, Blue Jackets, Oilers, Kings, Wild, Islanders, Blues, Lightning, and Leafs weren't that far behind (with the Jets on the cusp of "believers" and "one foot in"). I'd argue that the Leafs and Lightning have leapfrogged the Hawks and everyone else as the most well-known, while the Oilers did a 180 and Sabres are doing Sabres things - all those other teams have been pretty consistent strong contenders if not winners.

Time to move even further forward into what you're saying, though, along the lines of what petbugs is saying in truly defining the problem and what you are trying to achieve - the, you can finally begin to determine the best tool for the options you want to evaluate.

On another note, reading more of the McKinsey article, this Q&A stands out to me:
The Quarterly: What other changes jump out at you over past 10 to 15 years?


Jeff Luhnow:
In 2003, there were maybe four to five clubs that had analytics-dedicated people on their payroll, and typically they were in an office down the hall working on recommendations to people who may or may not pay any attention. I think what’s changed today is that every general manager has some background or interest in analytics, and the typical size of the group in the front office is probably somewhere between 12 and 15 full-time people who all have advanced degrees, whether it’s computer science or physics or mathematics or some other discipline. Along with that, there are data departments in organizations. Most organizations now have database folks and data scientists that are on their payroll and that are helping them not only store the information and organize it properly but also evaluate what it means.

There was also a trend in the past of using external companies to house data, like scouting reports or statistics. Most of that has now come in-house. When I was with the Cardinals, we used an outside provider, and when I got to the Astros, they were using an outside provider, but the response time and the customization was lacking. Most important, when you come up with a way of looking at the world and you want the external provider to build the model for you, you don’t want them to share it with the other 29 clubs. It’s difficult to have the confidence that it’s not going to be shared in some way, shape, or form. I think that’s led to most clubs believing that their way of handling data and information is a competitive advantage. It therefore becomes critical to have control over that in-house.

I'll beat the drum again. It's not good enough to have people on staff that can feed the decision-makers reports that may or may not be used. There needs to be an organizational buy-in and a good (not a general, a good) understanding of the material, and a proper method of actual evaluation that isn't just hopping on and off a hot seat. I don't see why the Winnipeg Jets can't be at the forefront of this.
 

Gm0ney

Unicorns salient
Oct 12, 2011
14,582
13,263
Winnipeg
NHL Playoff Odds -MoneyPuck Analytics Based Playoff & Cup Odds

We stand at

- 95.6% chance of making the playoffs! And then...
- 38.7% chance of making round 2
- 15.3% chance of reaching the WCF...
- 5.7% chance of making the finals...
- ...and 2.2% at winning the whole thing.

Fifteen teams have a better chance of winning it all than we do.

NHL Playoff Odds -MoneyPuck Analytics Based Playoff & Cup Odds
They also say the St. Louis Blues have a much better chance at winning the Stanley Cup than the Jets and Predators do. Pass the salt?

Blues and Avs with a higher probability of the Cup than the Jets or Caps. Okay....

Remember how we laughed about this in January...? :sarcasm:

Moneypuck saw the writing on the wall early. They've been the most accurate predictors of the playoff series results so far as well, I believe.
 

garret9

AKA#VitoCorrelationi
Mar 31, 2012
21,738
4,380
Vancouver
www.hockey-graphs.com
Remember how we laughed about this in January...? :sarcasm:

Moneypuck saw the writing on the wall early. They've been the most accurate predictors of the playoff series results so far as well, I believe.

They have the best log-loss right now, but the first round had a lot of teams where everyone, model, eye test expert, or betting lines, all had wrong so no one's log-loss is great.
 
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Jimby

Reformed Optimist
Nov 5, 2013
1,428
441
Winnipeg
The top four regular season PDO teams all made it past the first round by beating teams with better regular season Corsi but they didn't make it past the second round. I don't know if that is a pattern that repeats every season but regular season Corsi is looking like a pretty good predictor of post season success beyond the first round this year. In particular, the number of players each team has with over 50% CF. The decline is such players for the Jets this season made post season success unlikely.
 

Whileee

Registered User
May 29, 2010
46,075
33,132
The more data you get, the more confidence you gain. There is no black or white, just change in confidence intervals.
That's all data, including that from eyetest.

So, yes, statistics like xG and Corsi become more meaningful as "good performance" and "good player" align together as sample increases. How confident you are depends on the sample size, but also what you are using to measure as well as what question you are trying to answer.

I'd argue that using those statistics are good tools to measure how well individuals perform in a particular game, as they will paint part of the picture... but not the whole picture... but enough that it cannot and should not be ignored... but I'm a lot more confident in those measures at 15 games than 1.
I agree that xG is basically descriptive in a one game sample. It is somewhat problematic to attribute on-ice stats to an individual player in such a small sample though, because a bad play by another player on the ice can result in a shift where another player gets buried in shot attempts against, without accurately reflecting that player's performance. That's why adjustment for confounding variables including other players on the ice is important, but it is pretty much meaningless to try to adjust in a single game due to sparse data and non-converging models.
 

DRW204

Registered User
Dec 26, 2010
22,273
27,073
wondering, maybe @Whileee might have this

is there an analytics/numbers-based case study of a NHL player similar to Copp (similar age/toi/experience/pts (5v5/EV/PP breakdown)/quality of linemates + other mesaurables) that made the jump from a 'bottom 6 player' to a bona-fide top 6 C with top 6 C type results with an increased role? Is Couturier the archetype for this?
 
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