Speculation: 2017-18 Roster Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.

HoseEmDown

Registered User
Mar 25, 2012
17,470
3,690
So first there are the raw stats:

13 points in 76 games and a -11.

However, I won't hit him *too* hard on those since every Dman outside of Hedman has been pretty bad offensively this year. (Note that Dotchin already has 8 points in 31 games, though, so is outpacing Sustr by decent clip).

Sustr is rocking a sub 50 CF% (although admittedly it was higher than I expected). He has a CA/60 of 56.02 (versus 50.7 for Dotchin), which means he is a much higher event player.

But here's the biggest thing, and this reflects best the eye-test issue with when Sustr makes a mistake, it's a big one and it ends up hitting twine.

Sustr's GA/60 is 2.45. Dotchin's is 1.43. Sustr's GF% is 43.21%, while Dotchin's is 60% (likely to come down, though). That is despite Sustr having an xGF% of around 49% (Dotchin's is around 53%).

Considering the number of minutes Sustr has played, either he is the victim of awful puck luck (PDO isn't great but that can also be a result of his mistakes leading to more GA than raw shot totals would indicate).

So curious, I looked at the previous season stats to see if Sustr had a similar trend (lower GF% than xGF%, sub 100 PDO, etc.).

Sustr's xGA/60 last year was 2.26, actual GA/60 2.58. PDO was actually higher, but that was entirely due to a higher shooting percentage (his save% was the lowest of all the defense and lowest of any player not on the fourth line while his shooting% was the highest of the defense by far and third behind Drouin and Palat overall).

Every indication is that Sustr is bad defensively, and makes mistakes that end up in the back of the net more than anyone else on the team. And all that does is confirm what the eye test tells us - Sustr is a wreck defensively.

13 points is tied for 2nd in ES scoring so not a bad stat.

You talk about how zone starts don't mean anything but they are helpful in having better corsi numbers. A player with higher offensive to defensive zone starts will typically have the higher corsi. Dotchin also gets to play more with our best players who will help your corsi.

Sustr has his issues but for what he makes with his on ice deployment and production he's not the worst defender we have.
 

The Macho King

Back* to Back** World Champion
Jun 22, 2011
48,786
29,321
13 points is tied for 2nd in ES scoring so not a bad stat.

You talk about how zone starts don't mean anything but they are helpful in having better corsi numbers. A player with higher offensive to defensive zone starts will typically have the higher corsi. Dotchin also gets to play more with our best players who will help your corsi.

Sustr has his issues but for what he makes with his on ice deployment and production he's not the worst defender we have.

http://nhlnumbers.com/2016/11/4/beware-of-what-zone-starts-are-telling-you-part-ii-shot-metrics

https://canucksarmy.com/2016/11/3/b...ts-are-telling-you-part-i-coaches-deployment/

http://hockeyviz.com/txt/shifts2

Zone starts don't matter.
 

MattM92

Registered User
Dec 8, 2010
6,925
516
FL
So first there are the raw stats:

13 points in 76 games and a -11.

However, I won't hit him *too* hard on those since every Dman outside of Hedman has been pretty bad offensively this year. (Note that Dotchin already has 8 points in 31 games, though, so is outpacing Sustr by decent clip).

Sustr is rocking a sub 50 CF% (although admittedly it was higher than I expected). He has a CA/60 of 56.02 (versus 50.7 for Dotchin), which means he is a much higher event player.

But here's the biggest thing, and this reflects best the eye-test issue with when Sustr makes a mistake, it's a big one and it ends up hitting twine.

Sustr's GA/60 is 2.45. Dotchin's is 1.43. Sustr's GF% is 43.21%, while Dotchin's is 60% (likely to come down, though). That is despite Sustr having an xGF% of around 49% (Dotchin's is around 53%).

Considering the number of minutes Sustr has played, either he is the victim of awful puck luck (PDO isn't great but that can also be a result of his mistakes leading to more GA than raw shot totals would indicate).

So curious, I looked at the previous season stats to see if Sustr had a similar trend (lower GF% than xGF%, sub 100 PDO, etc.).

Sustr's xGA/60 last year was 2.26, actual GA/60 2.58. PDO was actually higher, but that was entirely due to a higher shooting percentage (his save% was the lowest of all the defense and lowest of any player not on the fourth line while his shooting% was the highest of the defense by far and third behind Drouin and Palat overall).

Every indication is that Sustr is bad defensively, and makes mistakes that end up in the back of the net more than anyone else on the team. And all that does is confirm what the eye test tells us - Sustr is a wreck defensively.

Numbers are only valid if it says Cooper is competent or Sustr is a top 4 defenseman.
 

HoseEmDown

Registered User
Mar 25, 2012
17,470
3,690

Fine they don't matter. Let's see Dotchin when he has to play with a Garrison or Carle and bottom 6 forwards. Next year there's no way he will be able to be protected as much, we will see how he does then. With Sustr you at least know what you're getting, 15-20 points with a negative corsi but someone who can be throw out there in the tough assignments so your best players can get the easier ones. Dotchin isn't ready to do that yet.
 

Sky04

Registered User
Jan 8, 2009
29,120
18,221
Fine they don't matter. Let's see Dotchin when he has to play with a Garrison or Carle and bottom 6 forwards. Next year there's no way he will be able to be protected as much, we will see how he does then. With Sustr you at least know what you're getting, 15-20 points with a negative corsi but someone who can be throw out there in the tough assignments so your best players can get the easier ones. Dotchin isn't ready to do that yet.

lol Sure.

Who cares if he can't do that, at worst he'll slot in fine on the 3rd pairing, but he also works well with Hedman and until that proves not to be the case, I'm not sure why we'd want them apart. He doesn't have to carry a line or play with bottom-6 forwards if he continues to do well in his current role, supporting Hedman and the top-6.
 

The Macho King

Back* to Back** World Champion
Jun 22, 2011
48,786
29,321
Fine they don't matter. Let's see Dotchin when he has to play with a Garrison or Carle and bottom 6 forwards. Next year there's no way he will be able to be protected as much, we will see how he does then. With Sustr you at least know what you're getting, 15-20 points with a negative corsi but someone who can be throw out there in the tough assignments so your best players can get the easier ones. Dotchin isn't ready to do that yet.

Stralman/Garrison have been getting the tougher deployments. Sustr has seen his TOI dip significantly since Dotchin came in in those handful of games we've had a healthy lineup.

Since Jake came up on January 21, Sustr has seen his TOI go from 18.5-21 TOI/G to 14-18 on average (coming back up toward 18 since Garrison went down on 3/23). The majority of those games have been between the 14-16 range while Jake has been in the 18-20 range.
 

Rschmitz

Finding new ways to cheat
Feb 27, 2002
16,142
8,613
Tampa Bay
We are talking small sample sizes here...you can't draw conclusions off statistically insignificant data...

I would still like to see corsi and Fenwick for the two pairings. Sustr simply doesn't pass the eye test for me, but it's still interesting to see just how effective the pairings are to help gauge just how good these guys are on their own versus how well they compliment each other.

I still think most here would enjoy watching Yzerman acquire a top end RHD, but that will mean Dotchin on the third pair
 

The Macho King

Back* to Back** World Champion
Jun 22, 2011
48,786
29,321
We are talking small sample sizes here...you can't draw conclusions off statistically insignificant data...

I would still like to see corsi and Fenwick for the two pairings. Sustr simply doesn't pass the eye test for me, but it's still interesting to see just how effective the pairings are to help gauge just how good these guys are on their own versus how well they compliment each other.

I still think most here would enjoy watching Yzerman acquire a top end RHD, but that will mean Dotchin on the third pair

What sample sizes? Sustr's sample size is significant. Dotchin's aren't large, but he's played more than 500 minutes which is enough to make some decent conclusions, but that being said his numbers are irrelevant to Sustr's numbers which show a clear indication of mistake-laden hockey.

And as I said previously - Dotchin does not in any way remove our need to fix up our defense. He just allows Yzerman more flexibility in LD or RD, since while it would still *ideally* be a RD and thereby slide Dotchin down the lineup, he's shown enough chemistry with Hedman to make a LD an option we can entertain if the right deal is not on the table, since it's well known that Top 4 RD are pretty damn rare in this league.
 

HoseEmDown

Registered User
Mar 25, 2012
17,470
3,690
Stralman/Garrison have been getting the tougher deployments. Sustr has seen his TOI dip significantly since Dotchin came in in those handful of games we've had a healthy lineup.

Since Jake came up on January 21, Sustr has seen his TOI go from 18.5-21 TOI/G to 14-18 on average (coming back up toward 18 since Garrison went down on 3/23). The majority of those games have been between the 14-16 range while Jake has been in the 18-20 range.

Stralman has been getting the toughest assignments all year, so it would make sense his new partner would get them too. Stralman is our go to defender for all the big defensive situations.

It would make sense for Dotchin's minutes to be high since he plays with Hedman who plays the most minutes. With Stralman dropping to the 2nd pair but maintaining his minutes Sustr on the 3rd pair was expected to have reduced minutes. Dotchin is still not getting any PK time, for a physical stay at home type of defender that should be their bread and butter. I'm sure it's because he's a rookie and we want to ease him in but if he can't play on the PK he better hope he can keep it up riding shotgun to Hedman. Maybe he can carve out a Rob Scuderi or Matt Greene type career, if so he better give Hedman a cut.
 

Sky04

Registered User
Jan 8, 2009
29,120
18,221
We are talking small sample sizes here...you can't draw conclusions off statistically insignificant data...

I would still like to see corsi and Fenwick for the two pairings. Sustr simply doesn't pass the eye test for me, but it's still interesting to see just how effective the pairings are to help gauge just how good these guys are on their own versus how well they compliment each other.

I still think most here would enjoy watching Yzerman acquire a top end RHD, but that will mean Dotchin on the third pair

What are the chances we actually acquire a top end RHD though? We're more likely to acquire a 2nd paring RHD/LHD with decent offense. Right now, we just need an upgrade, LHD or RHD it doesn't matter. A LH offensive defenseman wouldn't be bad either, you'd be replacing Garrison while keeping Koekkoek on the 3rd pairing.

Hedman-Dotchin
LHD-Stralman
Koekkoek-Coburn
 
Last edited:

VoluntaryDom

Formerly DominicBoltsFan / Ⓐ / ✞
Oct 31, 2016
23,285
5,532
Tampa FL
What are the chances we actually acquire a top end RHD though? We're more likely to acquire a 2nd paring RHD/LHD with decent offense. Right now, we just need an upgrade, LHD or RHD it doesn't matter. A Left handed offensive minded defense-man wouldn't be bad either, you'd be replacing Garrison while keeping Koekkoek on the 3rd pairing.

Hedman-Dotchin
LHD-Stralman
Koekkoek-Coburn

Agreed.
 

TampaBoltz

Registered User
Oct 26, 2015
189
45
I think we have to protect Dotchin in the expansion draft. I think Sustr or KK would be attractive to Las Vegas because of the low salary. But they will have a huge number of D to choose from. Some teams may expose their #3D over #4 because of salary. It will be interesting on Killorn. SY wouldn't have given him that long term deal if he didn't think he was part of the core. I don't know if this year did anything to change his mind. At this point AK is very replaceable with a much lower price player.
 

VoluntaryDom

Formerly DominicBoltsFan / Ⓐ / ✞
Oct 31, 2016
23,285
5,532
Tampa FL
I think we have to protect Dotchin in the expansion draft. I think Sustr or KK would be attractive to Las Vegas because of the low salary. But they will have a huge number of D to choose from. Some teams may expose their #3D over #4 because of salary. It will be interesting on Killorn. SY wouldn't have given him that long term deal if he didn't think he was part of the core. I don't know if this year did anything to change his mind. At this point AK is very replaceable with a much lower price player.

I didn't know Dotchin was available, thought he was exempt. I looked it up and he will need to be protected.

I'm guessing Koekkoek or Coburn goes, if Vegas needs a D from us. Sustr will be easy enough to trade. I hope we can trade Garrison.

On the offense, I would be OK with losing either of Killorn or Vlad. If we get Cally to waive his NMC, then we could protect both and lose Koekkoek or Coburn.
 

The Macho King

Back* to Back** World Champion
Jun 22, 2011
48,786
29,321
I doubt Sustr or KK would be on their radar. They are going to take Killorn or Namestnikov (whichever we expose). The forward market is just so thin relative to the defenseman market, they'll take talent where they can get it.
 

Rschmitz

Finding new ways to cheat
Feb 27, 2002
16,142
8,613
Tampa Bay
What sample sizes? Sustr's sample size is significant. Dotchin's aren't large, but he's played more than 500 minutes which is enough to make some decent conclusions, but that being said his numbers are irrelevant to Sustr's numbers which show a clear indication of mistake-laden hockey.

And as I said previously - Dotchin does not in any way remove our need to fix up our defense. He just allows Yzerman more flexibility in LD or RD, since while it would still *ideally* be a RD and thereby slide Dotchin down the lineup, he's shown enough chemistry with Hedman to make a LD an option we can entertain if the right deal is not on the table, since it's well known that Top 4 RD are pretty damn rare in this league.

I was talking about the statistics Hose mentioned, I hadn't even noticed the stats you linked.
 

Rschmitz

Finding new ways to cheat
Feb 27, 2002
16,142
8,613
Tampa Bay
What are the chances we actually acquire a top end RHD though? We're more likely to acquire a 2nd paring RHD/LHD with decent offense. Right now, we just need an upgrade, LHD or RHD it doesn't matter. A LH offensive defenseman wouldn't be bad either, you'd be replacing Garrison while keeping Koekkoek on the 3rd pairing.

Hedman-Dotchin
LHD-Stralman
Koekkoek-Coburn

Depends on what you consider top end. I'm not talking Eric Karlsson here. Maybe a Hamonic, maybe a Dumba, or any top 4 D who can be a shut down guy, connect a pass to the left circle, and get shots on net.

A LHD would do as well but a RHD would still be ideal
 

HoseEmDown

Registered User
Mar 25, 2012
17,470
3,690
Depends on what you consider top end. I'm not talking Eric Karlsson here. Maybe a Hamonic, maybe a Dumba, or any top 4 D who can be a shut down guy, connect a pass to the left circle, and get shots on net.

A LHD would do as well but a RHD would still be ideal

We have Blujus who should be close to ready if not next year. He has been better than Dotchin in every league with a better skillset, he could be the 3rd pair RD if we move Sustr. If we go for a LD I wouldn't go with a long term top 4 guy since we have Koekkoek who needs to be up next year, Masin who should be ready the following year then Hajek.
 

DaBolts

Stanley Cup Boat Parades ROCK
Feb 3, 2015
15,127
10,774
What are the chances we actually acquire a top end RHD though? We're more likely to acquire a 2nd paring RHD/LHD with decent offense. Right now, we just need an upgrade, LHD or RHD it doesn't matter. A LH offensive defenseman wouldn't be bad either, you'd be replacing Garrison while keeping Koekkoek on the 3rd pairing.

Hedman-Dotchin
LHD-Stralman
Koekkoek-Coburn

^This.

Sustr is too prone to the turnover and bad/lazy pass into the middle of our own zone. It's time to make some serious changes. Dotchin has heart and seasoning now so pairing with Hedman is logical. The line up above is a good start, IMHO.
 

Rschmitz

Finding new ways to cheat
Feb 27, 2002
16,142
8,613
Tampa Bay
We have Blujus who should be close to ready if not next year. He has been better than Dotchin in every league with a better skillset, he could be the 3rd pair RD if we move Sustr. If we go for a LD I wouldn't go with a long term top 4 guy since we have Koekkoek who needs to be up next year, Masin who should be ready the following year then Hajek.

Too much youth probably.
 

JoVel

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Jan 23, 2017
19,478
26,904
The way I see it we have 4 guys who are unmovable. Stamkos, Kucherov, Hedman and Vasy. Everyone else can be moved if it makes our team better.
 

VoluntaryDom

Formerly DominicBoltsFan / Ⓐ / ✞
Oct 31, 2016
23,285
5,532
Tampa FL
The way I see it we have 4 guys who are unmovable. Stamkos, Kucherov, Hedman and Vasy. Everyone else can be moved if it makes our team better.

Drouin is in that group as well. Maybe add Point and Dotchin, as well as our 2017 1st and Raddysh.
 

MattM92

Registered User
Dec 8, 2010
6,925
516
FL
The core is 3 forwards, 2 defensemen, and a goalie.

Stamkos
Kucherov
?

Hedman
?

Vasilevskiy

Fill in the question marks. Rest are expendable if it makes the team better.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad