Prospect Info: 2017-18 Flyers Prospects - Top 30 SKATERS, #19

[hayen]

I hope Leier and Vecchione both get a full season in the AHL for comparison's sake. That would also mean the Flyers forwards were pretty injury free.[/QUOT.

I'm on board with that

 

[Jray42]

Vecchione just overtook Kase, noooo!

 

[Magua]

I dont understand the age reference. We arent talking about a person past their prime but arguably in their prime. Many paths lead to growth but it seems that some dismiss the talent of the college level based on years spent growing their potential in that arena. The competition level in the college environment is a test for any player. It may be a different learning curve to the NHL but its been proven that it is the a path for many and often can create a prepared player for the next level.

No one dismisses the talent of NCAA hockey, but "college hockey" is used as a simplistic catch-all. It is well documented he played in one of the weakest conferences, and in terms of NHL projecting, the weakest. Jojo covered that already. Looking at points in college hockey can be deceptive. Especially when we're talking about a guy who was 24 in his senior year feasting on that lower competition. It's not WHL vs OHL.......there are significant gaps in evaluating between conferences. It warps his profile at face value.

We're projecting talent when we look at prospects. You don't understand that a player who is turning 25 in a handful of months has a massive developmental advantage over guys 4-6 years younger than him, which most of these guys are? The difference in age between Cates and Vecchione is the difference between Cates and a 12 year old. Vecchione didn't become a freshman until what would be Kase's upcoming SHL season. He's basically a finished product, though one without any sizable pro experience. Vecchione is the same age as Sean Couturier. I never said he can't be a useful NHL player -- I think he's got a good shot for sure -- but it's really hard for me to use the word "potential" with him.

I think Martel would absolutely clean house in the ECAC at Vecchione's age. I'm a little surprised Martel hasn't been better in the AHL, but it also illustrates why I'm not expecting much out of Vecchione professionally until I see it.

Martel in back to back years has been the best 5v5 scorer/point getter on the team, I believe. Last year for sure. In his first 2 years in the AHL. He doesn't get enough PP time, and that has kept his points capped. He's an underdog for sure at his size. But he's only 22, and who knows what could happen in another 2-3 years. It's not impossible to me he could be something one day. Lots of **** and vinegar, he really does have some burner level speed, and he finds ways to score. He was (still is) well worth a flyer at the very least.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Yeah I don't get the Martel comment. He missed 8 games and was right outside the league's top 10 in 5v5 primary scoring- only 1 guy above him was younger. He was top 25 as a rookie as well. He also sported a +11 GF%rel which was the best mark on the Phantoms by a good bit this year. He doesn't play much on the PP (where he was highly productive as a Jr. player) which is why his overall numbers are suppressed. And if this guy was an even better finisher I could only imagine what his numbers would look like. He creates and gets a ton a chances.

 

[hayen]

No one dismisses the talent of NCAA hockey, but "college hockey" is used as a simplistic catch-all. It is well documented he played in one of the weakest conferences, and in terms of NHL projecting, the weakest. Jojo covered that already. Looking at points in college hockey can be deceptive. Especially when we're talking about a guy who was 24 in his senior year feasting on that lower competition. It's not WHL vs OHL.......there are significant gaps in evaluating between conferences. It warps his profile at face value.

We're projecting talent when we look at prospects. You don't understand that a player who is turning 25 in a handful of months has a massive developmental advantage over guys 4-6 years younger than him, which most of these guys are? The difference in age between Cates and Vecchione is the difference between Cates and a 12 year old. Vecchione didn't become a freshman until what would be Kase's upcoming SHL season. He's basically a finished product, though one without any sizable pro experience. Vecchione is the same age as Sean Couturier. I never said he can't be a useful NHL player -- I think he's got a good shot for sure -- but it's really hard for me to use the word "potential" with him.



Martel in back to back years has been the best 5v5 scorer/point getter on the team, I believe. Last year for sure. In his first 2 years in the AHL. He doesn't get enough PP time, and that has kept his points capped. He's an underdog for sure at his size. But he's only 22, and who knows what could happen in another 2-3 years. It's not impossible to me he could be something one day. Lots of **** and vinegar, he really does have some burner level speed, and he finds ways to score. He was (still is) well worth a flyer at the very least.

i wont dispute much of what you say but the ECAC being called weak shows some amount of lack of keeping up on the NCAA environment. That is a short sighted analysis on the changing environment of the past 6 years. Stop talking about age. We are not talking about past prime players. How many years does the average productive NHL'er give? Being 24, 25, 26 means that you have experience and maturity. We are talking about line 3 and 4 here and most probably AHL. You're looking for a good position guy that knows how to battle and has the maturity and experience to position himself for the success of the team.

 

[FLYguy3911]

i wont dispute much of what you say but the ECAC being called weak shows some amount of lack of keeping up on the NCAA environment. That is a short sighted analysis on the changing environment of the past 6 years. Stop talking about age. We are not talking about past prime players. How many years does the average productive NHL'er give? Being 24, 25, 26 means that you have experience and maturity. We are talking about line 3 and 4 here and most probably AHL. You're looking for a good position guy that knows how to battle and has the maturity and experience to position himself for the success of the team.

Speaking of short sighted...

The ECAC doesn't produce NHL players at the same rate as the NCHC, Hockey East, the Big Ten, and several other leagues outside of the NCAA. That's just a fact. There is statistical data out there.

 

[hayen]

Speaking of short sighted...

The ECAC doesn't produce NHL players at the same rate as the NCHC, Hockey East, the Big Ten, and several other leagues outside of the NCAA. That's just a fact. There is statistical data out there.

I know the data. My point is that using that as an excuse to dismiss possible valuable talent is not an evaluation of talent but a use of past data.

 

[Magua]

Stop talking about age. We are not talking about past prime players. How many years does the average productive NHL'er give? Being 24, 25, 26 means that you have experience and maturity. We are talking about line 3 and 4 here and most probably AHL. You're looking for a good position guy that knows how to battle and has the maturity and experience to position himself for the success of the team.

Nope

Yes, he does have a lot of experience (not pro) and maturity, which the others don't have. Why is that a positive? It means he has little room to grow. I'm not even sure what player primes have to do with anything. This isn't a poll about on the 2017-2018 season and the next year or two. It's a prospect poll where we try to look ahead at their careers and determine who might be most valuable to this franchise, though the present has its sway no doubt. Every single year of development can be massive, let alone half a decade of extra development.

 

[hayen]

Nope

Yes, he does have a lot of experience (not pro) and maturity, which the others don't have. Why is that a positive? It means he has little room to grow. I'm not even sure what player primes have to do with anything. This isn't a poll about on the 2017-2018 season and the next year or two. It's a prospect poll where we try to look ahead at their careers and determine who might be most valuable to this franchise, though the present has its sway no doubt. Every single year of development can be massive, let alone half a decade of extra development.

good point

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

His age kind of is relevant though. He's further in his development which likely has him closer to the NHL but with that he's really up against the clock. He doesn't have much room for error so that first chance to show something could be his last if he doesn't show enough to get his foot in the door.

Weal got a second chance last year but that doesn't happen too much in this league.

 

[FLYguy3911]

I know the data. My point is that using that as an excuse to dismiss possible valuable talent is not an evaluation of talent but a use of past data.

Kind of like dismissing a player's age?

 

[briererocks]

I think MV upside is a fourth line player. To me, he is a dime a dozen player. Martel, Kase and Bernhardt have much more upside. My remaining list is:

19. Kase
20. Bernhardt
21. Martel
22. Cates
23. MV
24. Fazleev
25. Lycksell
26. Marody
27. Sushko
28. Salinitri
29. Leier
30. Bardreau

 

[Ruck Over]

I think MV upside is a fourth line player. To me, he is a dime a dozen player. Martel, Kase and Bernhardt have much more upside. My remaining list is:

19. Kase
20. Bernhardt
21. Martel
22. Cates
23. MV
24. Fazleev
25. Lycksell
26. Marody
27. Sushko
28. Salinitri
29. Leier
30. Bardreau

Mardy should be lower. No hockey iq, questionabe work ethics and character issues. Just refer to the collegiate team he is affiliated with.

 

[briererocks]

Mardy should be lower. No hockey iq, questionabe work ethics and character issues. Just refer to the collegiate team he is affiliated with.

I have him after lycksell. Marody is still a good skater and has put up strong numbers wherever he has played. The bottom 5 for me are whatever with marody having the highest upside.

 

[Curufinwe]

First time I've heard about Marody having zero hockey IQ. We don't know exactly why he was ruled academically ineligible for the first semester last season, but these articles indicate the coach didn't hold it against him, and that him getting mono in Spring 2016 may have been a factor.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sp...gans-cooper-marody-returns-time-gli/95932266/
http://pucksandrecreation.com/cooper-marody-re-emerges-sharper-student-ice/

I think MV upside is a fourth line player. To me, he is a dime a dozen player.

After the last few seasons we shouldn't say a good 4th liner is a dime a dozen player.

 

[Stizzle]

Marody also got punished and scratched later in the year for non-academic reasons.

 

[Curufinwe]

Punished how?

Their assistant coach seems high on him.

http://www.csnphilly.com/philadelph...and-brendan-warren-go-blue-bond-united-flyers

Marody is a key cog to Michigan's power play — which was tops in the country in 2015-16 — and "leads the charge offensively," Wiseman said, as far as puck possession and playing down the middle.

"Cooper is a very smart, highly intelligent hockey player, has a gift of slowing down the game, reading situations and making high-level, executed plays," Wiseman said.

"Some of the things he can do with the puck, engaging teammates by the way he sees the ice and distributes pucks into spaces is an exceptional skill he has."

 

[Stizzle]

Punished how?

I recall a televised game late in the season he was healthy scratched for some sort of violation.

 

[deadhead]

After the last few seasons we shouldn't say a good 4th liner is a dime a dozen player.

That's a very good point.

People for some reason think 4th liners are fungible, well, if you're a Flyers fan the last five years you've seen a lot of dreck on the 4th line - not just VdV, PEB and Luby, but Hall, White, Rinaldo, et al.

The value of the kind of depth where you field a solid 4th line with players who can step into the top 9 when injuries strike is substantial - this year our 13th and 14th forwards may be better than our 10-11th forward the previous five seasons.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

You basically have to not give a **** to get yourself academically ineligible as a college athlete playing a sport worth a damn.

 

[Ruck Over]

My comment was based solely on him being a student at U. Michigan.

Ergo, it was complete nonsense.

 

[WIP CALLER]

You basically have to not give a **** to get yourself academically ineligible as a college athlete playing a sport worth a damn.

or you know, have mono...

However, Marody, described as a "good student" by Berenson, was declared ineligible by the NCAA for failing to have the required number of credit hours in the last winter semester when he was slowed by mononucleosis.

http://www.mgoblue.com/news/2017/2/4/Kornacki_Marody_Hat_Trick_Marks_His_Road_Back.aspx

 

[Magua]

Ofc I can't know.......but that Marody thing seems like BS to me. What is he the only college kid ever who got mono? It's not easy and drains you, but I know a number of people whose grades didn't **** the bed when they got it. Said he didn't have enough credits, which can only lead you to believe he failed one or more courses. If he was struggling so much with his illness, these schools aren't draconian, especially for their athletes. They couldn't have let him have extra time? Maybe make up a class in the summer? It has always seemed fishy. But hey, at least he felt well enough to do this:

When he was not busy preparing to rejoin the Wolverines, he spent his extra downtime writing and recording music. Marody, who sings and plays both the guitar and piano, has his debut album "Thanks for the Songs” coming soon.

http://pucksandrecreation.com/cooper-marody-re-emerges-sharper-student-ice/

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

or you know, have mono...


http://www.mgoblue.com/news/2017/2/4/Kornacki_Marody_Hat_Trick_Marks_His_Road_Back.aspx

I am aware of that but I still don't buy it. If it was all due to mono I seriously doubt they'd go heavy on him & wipe away most of his season.

 

[Curufinwe]

If the votes are tied when the poll closes, there will be a two-man runoff.