2016 MLB Award Ballots

[Vamos Rafa]

Yeah this isn't NBA where 1 player can make a big difference.

True. But it's kinda hard to explain. When it comes to the motion of the game, basketball is more of a team sport. In baseball, it's mostly just 3 people: the pitcher, catcher, and batter.

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

I'm not gonna use the bottom feeder theory to discredit Trout

I will.

It's a lot easier to stat compile when no team takes you or your team seriously.

Just walk Trout= crazy OBP

Have to pitch to Trout and he beats you? No worries, it's the Angels, let him get his.

Trout does it all by himself while Betts has Ortiz batting behind him? Wouldn't that make Ortiz look a little elite then?

RBIs are a flawed stat because it's dependent on other players, then where are the home runs for Trout?39th?
Why, comparing traditional stats Betts has Trout beat in how many categories?

But point to metric formulas that are tools for GMs to evaluate players? Formulas that are just as flawed?

Yeah, I'll stick to the stats on the back of baseball cards and from the looks of it, so will the media. Somebody just got torched for trying to justify Trout over Betts on sports radio with the jist of the argument being its not Betts problem Trout plays on the Angels and that Betts success just happens to coincide with the Red Sox success.

It's gonna hurt, but saber metrics are only so respected.

 

[darko]

Trout/Bryant
Kluber/Scherzer
Fulmer/Seager

 

[KaseMeOutside]

1. Even if you ignore the meaninglessness of RBI, Betts leads in a lot of key offensive statistics- hits, extra base hits, runs, doubles, Home runs, total bases. Those are meaningful stats that you can't gloss over just because Trout has great WAR. Yeah, he has WAR, but what else does he have besides that and OBP? Those stats alone aren't gonna sway me. This isn't the Percentage Award.

2. Impact moments- Where is Mike Trout's impact moment or MVP showcase moment this year? Betts' many HR's at Camden Yards in games which arguably ended up being a reason the Red Sox aren't going to Toronto for a one-game showdown) essentially impacted the toughest division in baseball this year. Meanwhile, Trout didn't have a real signature moment this year other than passing guys on the all-time WAR list. Where was his equivalent of Betts' 3 HR game in Baltimore, Max Scherzer striking out 20 Tigers, or Kris Bryant's 3 HR 2 double game in June? We remember games like THAT.

3. Defense. Betts in right field has been very good defensively this year. Trout also plays good centerfield D, but Betts wasn't exactly a defensive liability. It's not like he was playing the infield or a slow-footed position defensively (ala the hotly-debated Cabrera/Trout MVP talks of a few years ago).

Forgive me if you will, but I believe Betts' total offensive package should not be discounted just because Mike Trout has great WAR, which is not the end-all be-all stat in baseball.

After all, David Price had a higher pitcher WAR than Jon Lester, but the way they pitched this year, there is no way that Price was any bit as good as Lester this year.

Mookie Betts in September/October had a 762 OPS
where was he when the red sox needed him down the stretch? certainly not performing at an MVP level

 

[KaseMeOutside]

Yup.

Honestly, I think some people here would be happier if we did away with the MVP awards and just gave out a WAR of the Year award.

Trout is the best player in baseball and if this was a 'Most Outstanding Player' award, sure. But it's an MVP award. And what Betts did was more important to his team and the sport this year.

And Betts had a 9.6 WAR year. This isn't like George Bell winning over Wade Boggs. When there's a limited difference in WAR, in my eyes the award should go to a guy who is actually driving the success of his team.

the only reason their WAR is even close is due to flawed defensive data

 

[KaseMeOutside]

Why, just look at the prediction thread on this forum for this year.

From the looks of it, there were predictions that the Red Sox would be a last place team. Now, unless you are willing to state most of the posters here haven't a clue what they are talking about, then the assumption before the year started was that the Red Sox wernt in any shape to make the playoffs.

Why the sudden turn around? Betts and Ortiz. Both MVP candidates. Trout was pathetic in April when the Angels had a shot. As they went downward, Trout suddenly flourished. You can't blame Betts for the team he's on, he's a huge part of their success.

Trout had a great year on a bottom feeder, take him off, they are still a bottom feeder. It's not like Trout's impact changed anything where as Betts made a team picked and judged on just this forum alone, from a mediocre team into a playoff team.

And just pointing out, it was I who predicted the Red Sox to win the East.

#onestepahead

Mike Trout in April
909 OPS
150 OPS+

 

[c9777666]

Since when did OPS and WAR become the end-all be-all stats?

 

[robert terwilliger]

what's funny is i don't think anyone who has said they'd vote trout have brought up war at all.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Since when did team success and rbi's become the end-all-be-all stats?

 

[Eyedea]

True. But it's kinda hard to explain. When it comes to the motion of the game, basketball is more of a team sport. In baseball, it's mostly just 3 people: the pitcher, catcher, and batter.

But there's multiple batters, defenders, and pitchers. Those three may have the most profound impact in the at bat, but they aren't always the solution. If that makes any sense.

 

[MurrayBannerman]

Baserunners are a thing, too.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

There are way too many nuances in baseball to limit the key roles to 3 things. It literally takes a village.

 

[Voight]

Since when did OPS and WAR become the end-all be-all stats?

When team performance started being used against players and people used flawed traditional stats in player x vs player y arguements.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

Since when did OPS and WAR become the end-all be-all stats?

because counting stats do not measure efficiency. it's funny people are using walks against Trout, what is he supposed to do, swing at bad pitches for the sake of it, just to make people happy?

 

[bluesfan94]

Since when did OPS and WAR become the end-all be-all stats?

They aren't. OPS+ is preferential to OPS just from the outset. But regardless, I rarely use OPS or even OPS+ to determine whether Kershaw or Scherzer had a better year.

 

[MurrayBannerman]

They aren't. OPS+ is preferential to OPS just from the outset. But regardless, I rarely use OPS or even OPS+ to determine whether Kershaw or Scherzer had a better year.

OPS is no bueno to begin with.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

because counting stats do not measure efficiency. it's funny people are using walks against Trout, what is he supposed to do, swing at bad pitches for the sake of it, just to make people happy?

The Joey Votto curse.

 

[MurrayBannerman]

 

[KaseMeOutside]

They aren't. OPS+ is preferential to OPS just from the outset. But regardless, I rarely use OPS or even OPS+ to determine whether Kershaw or Scherzer had a better year.

it's strange how when betts is discussed by his supporters, they don't want to talk about his OPS being 120 points higher at fenway than on the road. Trout meanwhile is consistently great everywhere......betts has had a great year but he also had 2 significant advantages...team, and ballpark.

the narrative before september was whoever had the best month would win, well trout had by far the best september of all the AL MVP candidates, and yet again the narrative gets switched even though donaldson/altuve/betts all had very mediocre final months

 

[Virtanen18]

What is that Trout graphic based off? I feel I've seen it before with something else written.

 

[MurrayBannerman]

What is that Trout graphic based off? I feel I've seen it before with something else written.

It's all over Twitter.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

But I thought you could only be a good baseball player if you're on a good team?

 

[Voight]

because counting stats do not measure efficiency. it's funny people are using walks against Trout, what is he supposed to do, swing at bad pitches for the sake of it, just to make people happy?

Well yea, that's what Chris Davis did and he got a 150 million dollar contract

(Yes I am aware Trout makes more)

 

[Voight]

Maybe because those individuals were a huge reason for team success.

2016 Angels

Mike Tout 9.4 WAR
Kole Calhoun 4.0 WAR
Matt Shoemaker 3.3 WAR
Andrelton Simmons 3.1 WAR

Everyone else is below 2.

2016 Cubs
Kris Bryant 8.4 WAR
Anthony Rizzo 5.1 WAR
Dexter Fowler 4.8 WAR
Kyle Hendricks 4.5 WAR
Jon Lester 4.3 WAR
Ben Zobrist 4.0 WAR
Addison Russell 4.0 WAR
Jake Arrieta 3.8 WAR
John Lackey 3.1 WAR
Javier Baez 2.8 WAR
Willson Contreras 2.2 WAR

Like, its not hard to see why one team had the best record and one the worst.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

no way swap the angels roster and the cubs roster
cubs keep bryant
angels keep trout

cubs still best record in baseball and angels still trash, because bryant is just that good