Salary Cap: 2016-17 roster-building part XV | Contract/FA charts, cap info in post #1

[NMK11]

When we were sitting 13ov in the East with no light at the end of the tunnel, I proposed trading Letang as the catalyst to a rebuild. Now, obviously, I would be against that.

We could have done:

Maatta-Niskanen
Despres-Martin
Dumo-Harry/Pouliot/Cole/etc

and added a top flight winger such as Sam Bennett, Draisaitl, Puljujarvi, or even Drouin (plus Connelly and a pick IIRC). Would we have been better off? Who the heck knows. Impossible to say either way.

So to interrupt the Letang PP argument, I thought this was an interesting post. Our D could have been similar to the one above with Daley and/or LJ plus probably some other FA signing.

In hindsight, I doubt whatever Letang would have brought back in a trade would equal the step down to Niskanen, but you have to think he would have gotten at least a top 6 winger plus the cap room for someone better on the 3rd pairing. I cant say our team would have been much worse off, so you would have to at least consider it.

 

[NeedleInTheHay]

Letang is simply a player you see both ends of the spectrum on. Some days he's a god other days he's a clod. It's more than understandable that fan emotions and opinion of him shift with his play. For those of us that can look objectively on players, it happens. Those that are blinded by shallow fandome, do not.

When we were sitting 13ov in the East with no light at the end of the tunnel, I proposed trading Letang as the catalyst to a rebuild. Now, obviously, I would be against that.

We could have done:

Maatta-Niskanen
Despres-Martin
Dumo-Harry/Pouliot/Cole/etc

and added a top flight winger such as Sam Bennett, Draisaitl, Puljujarvi, or even Drouin (plus Connelly and a pick IIRC). Would we have been better off? Who the heck knows. Impossible to say either way.

Right now though, I like the defense a lot and I like our team a lot. The only moves that need to be made are with Kunitz and MAF. Use them to get a young forward and a pick and we should be sitting good.

I'm sorry but no team that has Niskanen as their number 1 is going to win the cup.

No Letang = No 2016 cup.

 

[Dick Sledge]

I'm perfectly fine with Letang at the top of the umbrella. His athleticism and speed keep a lot of pucks from leaving the zone. He's definitely an above average to great passer.

If he had Subban's shot he'd be godlike on the PP. He's not great at finding lanes or picking his spots. Doesn't mean he's not great on the PP with the tools he does possess.

 

[ColePens]

I'm sorry but no team that has Niskanen as their number 1 is going to win the cup.

No Letang = No 2016 cup.

I don't want people to think I'm the resident Letang hater because I'm opposing all of the nonsense. I'm trying to reel people back in from their absurd opinions. If someone told you Geno would be a pretty big non-factor in the postseason, many would claim there is no chance for the Pens to win the Cup. We did.

Letang battled some really rough personal things mid-way through the Washington series as well as an injury in the SCF. He was very bad in a few games in the Tampa series and I believe it was G1 or G2 of the SCF. He was downright miserable. So he was very up/down and inconsistent in the final 2 rounds. Let's not have revisionist history because we won the Cup. If we lost the Cup, he would have been part of the blame in a big way.

Perspective people. That's all I ask for. It's okay to say he had a few bad games when he was brutal. That's hockey.

 

[Gurglesons]

I don't want people to think I'm the resident Letang hater because I'm opposing all of the nonsense. I'm trying to reel people back in from their absurd opinions. If someone told you Geno would be a pretty big non-factor in the postseason, many would claim there is no chance for the Pens to win the Cup. We did.

Letang battled some really rough personal things mid-way through the Washington series as well as an injury in the SCF. He was very bad in a few games in the Tampa series and I believe it was G1 or G2 of the SCF. He was downright miserable. So he was very up/down and inconsistent in the final 2 rounds. Let's not have revisionist history because we won the Cup. If we lost the Cup, he would have been part of the blame in a big way.

Perspective people. That's all I ask for. It's okay to say he had a few bad games when he was brutal. That's hockey.

Since when was Geno a "non-factor" in the postseason? He put up the third most points and was integral in setting up all of Rust's goals in Game 6 and 7 of the Tampa series. Not to mention the space he gave Rust.

Also, Letang set up both GWGs in G1 and G2 of the final. He also played over 27 minutes in those games where we suppressed the Sharks to 40 shots in two games.

 

[JTG]

I don't just disagree, I think that's completely ludicrous. Its just not close.

Since Schultz entered the league, he has 47 PPP in 266 games compared to Letang's 76 in 212. That's .18 per game for Schultz vs .36 per game for Letang. Both guys were the top PP D-man for their team. Both guys had very talented forwards with them. One of them doubled the other's production. Hell, let's go back for Letang's whole career. Letang has .25 per game even when you include the 3 years he was behind Gonchar.

Daley is harder to compare because he hasn't played nearly as much on the powerplay throughout his career. Then again, that's because he's not nearly as good at it. In 838 NHL games, Daley has 61 PPP. That's .07 per game.

I'm sorry, but if your eye test is telling you Daley or Schultz are better PP d-men than Letang, you are looking at things wrong. Letang was seriously tied for 2nd in PPP for D-men last year. He was tied for 7th in the league overall for PPP. He led our team in PPP. And you are going to tell me that Justin Schultz and Trevor Daley are better guys for the PP than him? No, there's just no argument to be made there. There's not a single objective measure to support that claim. Schultz has a better stationary shot. He does have that on Letang. That's all he's got on Letang, but at least it's something. But Daley? No. There isn't a single thing that Daley does better than Letang.



Letang is one of the most effective powerplay D-men in the league. Over the last 5 years, he's 8th for D-men in PPP, 6th in PPP/60. You simply don't produce like he does without being very good at it.

But your eye test tells you he's a top notch powerplay guy? Points are one thing - with the talent on this squad, we should be smoking the league year after year on the powerplay. We don't. Quite adversely, we most of the time flat out stink. Had we had a powerplay, Tampa is buried in 5 or 6 games.

We have had regime changes, and things still do not change. It's really time to start looking at who we are putting on the ice. This powerplay has struggled mightily since Letang has been manning the right point since Sarge left. He needs a role that gives him less responsibility.

In my opinion, Daley should without a question be the man QB'ing the powerplay, and Letang should be on the left point. It really should be an open audition for that spot, honestly. It will never happen though, that powerplay will continue to suffer.

 

[ColePens]

Geno was essentially a 4th liner in the entire playoffs. He wasn't particularly great and far far far from 71-like the entire playoffs.

Jesus people. At least go back and read the PGT. They are easy finds.

Game 5... funny how Fleury is still here. This was Letang's meltdown game.
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2081249

Game 1 SCF. Discussing Geno needing to find his legs throughout the entire PGT.
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2084425

And it was Game 3 I was thinking about for #58. Check out some comments:
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2086269

 

[JTG]

Geno also had 1 arm.

 

[NMK11]

Geno was essentially a 4th liner in the entire playoffs. He wasn't particularly great and far far far from 71-like the entire playoffs.

Thats a fair bit of hyperbole. No, he definitely didn't play well and we all saw it, but he was third on the team in scoring and at worst was playing third line minutes (was actually third in TOI for forwards). Was he normal dominant Geno? No. Was he even particularly good? Meh. But he wasn't a fourth liner either.

 

[ColePens]

We know why Geno wasn't good. My point was if someone said "We can win the Cup without Geno being Geno" people would probably claim that was highly unlikely. That was in reference to Needle saying we don't win the Cup w/o Letang. My point is in regards to how it was the team that won the Cup and in the past, we would have claimed there is ZERO chance we win w/o Sid/Geno being dominant.

Honestly this was the most complete team effort to win the Cup. That was my argument towards Needle saying w/o Letang we don't win. I don't know if we can say that. At times HBK was dominant. Murray was dominant. Sid put on a great SCF. Sheary lit up Hank like you couldn't believe. Rust scored timely goals. Dumo scored. Cole scored. It was the ultimate team Stanley Cup win.

 

[NeedleInTheHay]

I don't want people to think I'm the resident Letang hater because I'm opposing all of the nonsense. I'm trying to reel people back in from their absurd opinions. If someone told you Geno would be a pretty big non-factor in the postseason, many would claim there is no chance for the Pens to win the Cup. We did.

Letang battled some really rough personal things mid-way through the Washington series as well as an injury in the SCF. He was very bad in a few games in the Tampa series and I believe it was G1 or G2 of the SCF. He was downright miserable. So he was very up/down and inconsistent in the final 2 rounds. Let's not have revisionist history because we won the Cup. If we lost the Cup, he would have been part of the blame in a big way.

Perspective people. That's all I ask for. It's okay to say he had a few bad games when he was brutal. That's hockey.

Yes, Letang had a sub-par ECF by his standards, but considering he had foot surgery after game 1, I think we can give him a break.

He was huge in the SCF so i'm not sure how he was bad in games 1 or 2.

As for Geno, do you think Rust scores those huge goals if Malkin isn't out there?

His space and ability creates so many openings for other players, and wasn't he 3rd in scoring anyways? Not too shabby after Sid and Phil.

 

[Gurglesons]

We know why Geno wasn't good. My point was if someone said "We can win the Cup without Geno being Geno" people would probably claim that was highly unlikely. That was in reference to Needle saying we don't win the Cup w/o Letang. My point is in regards to how it was the team that won the Cup and in the past, we would have claimed there is ZERO chance we win w/o Sid/Geno being dominant.

Honestly this was the most complete team effort to win the Cup. That was my argument towards Needle saying w/o Letang we don't win. I don't know if we can say that. At times HBK was dominant. Murray was dominant. Sid put on a great SCF. Sheary lit up Hank like you couldn't believe. Rust scored timely goals. Dumo scored. Cole scored. It was the ultimate team Stanley Cup win.

Letang led our defense in a way that only Keith has in recent years. Without Letang, we don't win the cup. His only bad series came after he got concussed by Callahan in the first game and was dealing with personal issues.

 

[ColePens]

Letang led our defense in a way that only Keith has in recent years. Without Letang, we don't win the cup. His only bad series came after he got concussed by Callahan in the first game and was dealing with personal issues.

No.. No no no no no. Not even in the slightest, man. Jesus that's so off base it's unreal. That defense, as a whole, did tremendous. Letang was the leader of that group, but no ****ing way can you say that.

It's absolutely asinine to not give Lovejoy his due even though he's hated by the majority around here. Schultz stepped up. Daley was insanely good. Cole stepped up. Dumo stepped up in a huge way.

Absolutely 100% no freaking way is that statement true. That defensive group, yes led by Letang, all deserve their love. That was a group effort. That is nothing like what Chicago did with only playing 3-4 defenders 2 years ago. Nothing.

 

[ColePens]

Yes, Letang had a sub-par ECF by his standards, but considering he had foot surgery after game 1, I think we can give him a break.

He was huge in the SCF so i'm not sure how he was bad in games 1 or 2.

As for Geno, do you think Rust scores those huge goals if Malkin isn't out there?

His space and ability creates so many openings for other players, and wasn't he 3rd in scoring anyways? Not too shabby after Sid and Phil.

My argument to you was the fact that prior to the playoffs, if someone said Geno wouldn't be the Geno we have known to dominate, many of us would say we have a very slim chance to win the Cup. In fact, many of us would probably say we have zero chance to win if MAF wasn't in. But there were a lot of us who fully believed in Murray.

My argument to you was that more than any year I can remember, this was a team win. It was definitely next-man-up mentality. When Sid was neutralized in the Washington series, HBk went absolutely nuts. Murray stole a game. When we needed the stars to step up, Sid stepped his game up majorly in the SCF. Rust scored important goals. Sheary scored goals and disappeared, too. It was a team effort each night.

Basically what I'm saying is - not one player was overly dominant like in 2009 where you had Sid's Washington series and Geno's Carolina series. It was a team win through the entire playoffs. So I do not believe it's fair to say "If player X was not on the team, we don't win the Cup."

 

[Gurglesons]

No.. No no no no no. Not even in the slightest, man. Jesus that's so off base it's unreal. That defense, as a whole, did tremendous. Letang was the leader of that group, but no ****ing way can you say that.

It's absolutely asinine to not give Lovejoy his due even though he's hated by the majority around here. Schultz stepped up. Daley was insanely good. Cole stepped up. Dumo stepped up in a huge way.

Absolutely 100% no freaking way is that statement true. That defensive group, yes led by Letang, all deserve their love. That was a group effort. That is nothing like what Chicago did with only playing 3-4 defenders 2 years ago. Nothing.

I mean you're right it isn't the same because Keith had players like Hammer, Seabrook and Oduya that could actually play above 20 minutes a night.

The only other player besides Letang's partner in Dumo that eclipsed twenty minutes was Lovejoy and he was usually hitting like 21 - 22 minutes.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I don't want people to think I'm the resident Letang hater because I'm opposing all of the nonsense. I'm trying to reel people back in from their absurd opinions. If someone told you Geno would be a pretty big non-factor in the postseason, many would claim there is no chance for the Pens to win the Cup. We did.

Letang battled some really rough personal things mid-way through the Washington series as well as an injury in the SCF. He was very bad in a few games in the Tampa series and I believe it was G1 or G2 of the SCF. He was downright miserable. So he was very up/down and inconsistent in the final 2 rounds. Let's not have revisionist history because we won the Cup. If we lost the Cup, he would have been part of the blame in a big way.

Perspective people. That's all I ask for. It's okay to say he had a few bad games when he was brutal. That's hockey.

Geno was really good these playoffs. And Letang was the best d-man for either team in every series we played. Hedman was maybe as good, but he wasn't better.

 

[Riptide]

I'm sorry but no team that has Niskanen as their number 1 is going to win the cup.

No Letang = No 2016 cup.

If it's a direct trade from Letang to Nisky, I'd agree. But Niskanen also only wanted 4m to stay here. Then there's whatever we would have gotten back for Letang.

Also, with the way our team played and our D played, you don't need Niskanen playing 29 minutes a game (something he can't or shouldn't be doing). But him playing 22/23 isn't an issue.

 

[ColePens]

I mean you're right it isn't the same because Keith had players like Hammer, Seabrook and Oduya that could actually play above 20 minutes a night.

The only other player besides Letang's partner in Dumo that eclipsed twenty minutes was Lovejoy and he was usually hitting like 21 - 22 minutes.

I just hope the group gets their love. They all deserve it. Dumo/Daley are two guys who really deserve love. Those guys played elite hockey. Schultz/Cole/Lovejoy all played as if they weren't #6/#7 defenders in the league. They really played well. Maatta was the only bad one, but he has every fair excuse with what he went through.

But if people want to claim we don't win a Cup without Letang, then you have to say we don't win a Cup without Dumo/Daley, too. Therefore it was the sum of the group and how well they played, led by the star #58, that took this team to Lord Stanley.

Geno was really good these playoffs. And Letang was the best d-man for either team in every series we played. Hedman was maybe as good, but he wasn't better.

We really have to give Hedman the respect he deserves. He was absolutely on Letang's level and I would say he had a better overall series than Letang. Please go back and watch Game 5. Goodness gracious. Both guys were major elite players.

Nobody is saying Letang isn't good. Stop trying to twist my words or whatever you are trying to do. But the 2016 team did not win because one dominating player. We won as a group. There is no simple "If player x wasn't on the team, we'd lose." That isn't why this team won. If people think it was one player, then they didn't watch the playoffs.

 

[ColePens]

For the record, I don't even think KIRK would say Geno was really good in the playoffs. And we all know KIRK is the biggest #71 fan of all time.

 

[Gurglesons]

I just hope the group gets their love. They all deserve it. Dumo/Daley are two guys who really deserve love. Those guys played elite hockey. Schultz/Cole/Lovejoy all played as if they weren't #6/#7 defenders in the league. They really played well. Maatta was the only bad one, but he has every fair excuse with what he went through.

But if people want to claim we don't win a Cup without Letang, then you have to say we don't win a Cup without Dumo/Daley, too. Therefore it was the sum of the group and how well they played, led by the star #58, that took this team to Lord Stanley.

We won the cup without Daley? Remember?

Niskanen couldn't play 22 - 23 minutes because we had half of our defense playing under 20 minutes per game. Dumo was able to play his minutes because he was paired with Letang. Letang should've won the Conn Smythe, he was absolutely our best player and without a player of his caliber (which there are maybe ten of in the league) we don't win the cup. Every single cup winner since the lockout besides Carolina has had a Letang. You need a player that can eat those minutes and be a game changer. He literally set up every GWG in the Sharks series outside of Game 4.

 

[Gurglesons]

For the record, I don't even think KIRK would say Geno was really good in the playoffs. And we all know KIRK is the biggest #71 fan of all time.

This is the issue with being a Pittsburgh Penguins fan. We expect every player to put up ridiculous numbers and be a complete dominant force night in and night out because of the forward depth we've been blessed with over the years.

Malkin was really good in the playoffs. He wasn't Malkin in 2009, but he was clearly one of our top forwards playing the third most minutes amongst forwards. Without him we don't win the Cup. He was the reason the HBK line was able to succeed.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I just hope the group gets their love. They all deserve it. Dumo/Daley are two guys who really deserve love. Those guys played elite hockey. Schultz/Cole/Lovejoy all played as if they weren't #6/#7 defenders in the league. They really played well. Maatta was the only bad one, but he has every fair excuse with what he went through.

But if people want to claim we don't win a Cup without Letang, then you have to say we don't win a Cup without Dumo/Daley, too. Therefore it was the sum of the group and how well they played, led by the star #58, that took this team to Lord Stanley.

It was definitely a team win. But Letang was far and away the most important player on our blueline. Especially once Daley got hurt. Its impossible to say where we'd be had we traded Letang though, because so much else changes.

We really have to give Hedman the respect he deserves. He was absolutely on Letang's level and I would say he had a better overall series than Letang. Please go back and watch Game 5. Goodness gracious. Both guys were major elite players.

Hedman was great. So was Letang. They were on a similar level, including both having some pretty bad plays. I would overall give it to Letang, but it was certainly close. I'm mostly just saying you are overstating Letang's struggles. Saying he had a few very bad games is something I just can't agree with. The phrase "downright miserable" has no place in a discussion of Letang at any point these playoffs. On his worst days, he was the 2nd best d-man on the ice behind another elite d-man. And he did it playing a ridiculous amount of ice time. He played 62 minutes more than the next player these playoffs (Burns), despite missing a game. The only players to play more per game were all eliminated in round 1.

Nobody is saying Letang isn't good. Stop trying to twist my words or whatever you are trying to do. But the 2016 team did not win because one dominating player. We won as a group. There is no simple "If player x wasn't on the team, we'd lose." That isn't why this team won. If people think it was one player, then they didn't watch the playoffs.

I'm not twisting your words. You said he was downright miserable in a few games against Tampa. I very much disagree. I just think Letang was far better than you seem to think in these playoffs, and far more important. Even on the powerplay stuff, I wouldn't have an issue with you saying it's a weaker part of his game. But when you flat out say he sucks on the PP, I just can't agree.

For the record, I don't even think KIRK would say Geno was really good in the playoffs. And we all know KIRK is the biggest #71 fan of all time.

Geno had 1 less point than Sid, playing 3 less minutes a night. Geno wasn't in his god mode, but he was really good.

 

[ColePens]

We won the cup without Daley? Remember?

Niskanen couldn't play 22 - 23 minutes because we had half of our defense playing under 20 minutes per game. Dumo was able to play his minutes because he was paired with Letang. Letang should've won the Conn Smythe, he was absolutely our best player and without a player of his caliber (which there are maybe ten of in the league) we don't win the cup. Every single cup winner since the lockout besides Carolina has had a Letang. You need a player that can eat those minutes and be a game changer. He literally set up every GWG in the Sharks series outside of Game 4.

I think you are infusing my post and another individual's post together. I am making a blanket statement given credit to the team for playing the ultimate team game and achieving the ultimate team trophy. Obviously this team, like any team, needs their star players. But this playoff run was the ultimate team effort. More-so than any other team I can remember.

That is the only thing I was saying. I'm not saying anything else. And I think the Conn Smythe should have went to Sid, Kessel, or Coach Sully. Letang/Murray lost their chances with very inconsistent efforts. Letang Game 3 SCF, Game 5 ECF. Murray in the SCF.

 

[Til the End of Time]

i havent been paying close attention, has there been on word on moving on from fleury? are the pens planning on keeping him?

 

[ColePens]

I will agree to disagree about Geno, but you are not understanding my point of view on why i brought him up. So there's that. My opinion was that he was okay. Not great. Not terrible. He really elevated his team game in the ECF and SCF. He was pretty bad in the Washington series and really good in the opening round.

But you are inevitably missing the point i'm trying to make by a country mile. Either i'm poorly explaining it, or you are just taking it on a different path.