Salary Cap: 2016-17 roster-building part XV | Contract/FA charts, cap info in post #1

[Shady Machine]

If Letang isn't top 5 then who is? I'm not sure where I rank him honestly but it's tough for me to come up with 5 better all around defenseman at the moment.

 

[The Greatest 101]

A top 5 defenseman who still can't make Team Canada.

 

[Son Goku]

Letang is top five no doubt.

 

[Riptide]

Wow.....Tanger has had quite the pendulum swing here on hfboards within the last year.

He also has quite the pendulum swing out on the ice at different times and different weeks/months.

 

[Riptide]

It's important to remember the trade Letang movement was at it's height pre-Despres trade and while Niskanen was still on the roster/extendible.

Letang was huge for us last year, but it was far from obvious that keeping him was the right choice in 2013.

Not to mention Paul Martin was still here with term left. Nisky, Despres and Martin may not have nearly the dynamic ability that Letang has, but Nisky and Martin are both very good D who can log minutes. And when the rumor was that Nisky wanted 4x4m (the start of his final season here), moving Letang for a winger would have been very feasible.

I'm not going to complain that we didn't move him, because he's a damn good D. But at the time, we could have managed it and still had the depth to go deep.

 

[Shady Machine]

A top 5 defenseman who still can't make Team Canada.

Letang is better than Muzzin, Vlasic, and Weber at this point and I'd pick him over Burns as well. Canada was picking what they thought was the best team not the best collection of high end dmen

 

[SEALBound]

Not to mention Paul Martin was still here with term left. Nisky, Despres and Martin may not have nearly the dynamic ability that Letang has, but Nisky and Martin are both very good D who can log minutes. And when the rumor was that Nisky wanted 4x4m (the start of his final season here), moving Letang for a winger would have been very feasible.

I'm not going to complain that we didn't move him, because he's a damn good D. But at the time, we could have managed it and still had the depth to go deep.

Letang is simply a player you see both ends of the spectrum on. Some days he's a god other days he's a clod. It's more than understandable that fan emotions and opinion of him shift with his play. For those of us that can look objectively on players, it happens. Those that are blinded by shallow fandome, do not.

When we were sitting 13ov in the East with no light at the end of the tunnel, I proposed trading Letang as the catalyst to a rebuild. Now, obviously, I would be against that.

We could have done:

Maatta-Niskanen
Despres-Martin
Dumo-Harry/Pouliot/Cole/etc

and added a top flight winger such as Sam Bennett, Draisaitl, Puljujarvi, or even Drouin (plus Connelly and a pick IIRC). Would we have been better off? Who the heck knows. Impossible to say either way.

Right now though, I like the defense a lot and I like our team a lot. The only moves that need to be made are with Kunitz and MAF. Use them to get a young forward and a pick and we should be sitting good.

 

[SEALBound]

Letang is better than Muzzin, Vlasic, and Weber at this point and I'd pick him over Burns as well. Canada was picking what they thought was the best team not the best collection of high end dmen

Indeed. Letang's major asset is his skating and offense. Defense, sans Muzzin maybe, those others are better defensively. But when you have the offensive firepower upfront, needing offense on the back becomes less important.

 

[The Greatest 101]

Indeed. Letang's major asset is his skating and offense. Defense, sans Muzzin maybe, those others are better defensively. But when you have the offensive firepower upfront, needing offense on the back becomes less important.

Burns?

 

[JTG]

You can't really just exchange PP time for ES time though. PP time is just easier time physically. And he's still easily our best PP d-man unless Pouliot takes some massive steps forward this year.

I disagree. I think both Daley and Schultz are better PP point men than him.

Letang's position on the powerplay should be on the left wall...not the right where he's playing catch with Geno.

 

[JTG]

It's sort of funny.. when a lot of users wanted to trade Letang, I was heavily against it. Fast forward a couple years, now I'm the one putting him down because I won't call him a top 5 defender in the league.

In 2013 we had a thread about roll call to trade Letang. Obviously I wasn't the only one against it, but amazing what happens 3 years later. I'll also never forget DK's "The time to trade Letang is now" article. Yikes.

I think a lot of us said explore the option to see if we could get an equally dominant/dynamic winger, but we ended up getting Kessel for far far far less than we ever expected. Now look how that dynamic of having a dominant 5 on 5 dman and a dominant secondary threat other than Sid/Geno. Shocking in the first year of that situation, which many have been screaming for, we win the Stanley Cup.

I was a huge proponent of trading Letang before that contract negotiation. I was wrong for wanting him traded, but my reasons for not wanting him signed were that of health concerns, and him only being an average PP player.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I disagree. I think both Daley and Schultz are better PP point men than him.

Letang's position on the powerplay should be on the left wall...not the right where he's playing catch with Geno.

I don't just disagree, I think that's completely ludicrous. Its just not close.

Since Schultz entered the league, he has 47 PPP in 266 games compared to Letang's 76 in 212. That's .18 per game for Schultz vs .36 per game for Letang. Both guys were the top PP D-man for their team. Both guys had very talented forwards with them. One of them doubled the other's production. Hell, let's go back for Letang's whole career. Letang has .25 per game even when you include the 3 years he was behind Gonchar.

Daley is harder to compare because he hasn't played nearly as much on the powerplay throughout his career. Then again, that's because he's not nearly as good at it. In 838 NHL games, Daley has 61 PPP. That's .07 per game.

I'm sorry, but if your eye test is telling you Daley or Schultz are better PP d-men than Letang, you are looking at things wrong. Letang was seriously tied for 2nd in PPP for D-men last year. He was tied for 7th in the league overall for PPP. He led our team in PPP. And you are going to tell me that Justin Schultz and Trevor Daley are better guys for the PP than him? No, there's just no argument to be made there. There's not a single objective measure to support that claim. Schultz has a better stationary shot. He does have that on Letang. That's all he's got on Letang, but at least it's something. But Daley? No. There isn't a single thing that Daley does better than Letang.

I was a huge proponent of trading Letang before that contract negotiation. I was wrong for wanting him traded, but my reasons for not wanting him signed were that of health concerns, and him only being an average PP player.

Letang is one of the most effective powerplay D-men in the league. Over the last 5 years, he's 8th for D-men in PPP, 6th in PPP/60. You simply don't produce like he does without being very good at it.

 

[ColePens]

Letang is not one of the most effective powerplay d-men in the league. Good lord, Ogre. That couldn't be more off. Come on, now. That is just ridiculous. Yikes.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Letang is not one of the most effective powerplay d-men in the league. Good lord, Ogre. That couldn't be more off. Come on, now. That is just ridiculous. Yikes.

based on what? He is a top 10 producer every year. He just lead our team in PPP. 2nd in the league for D. Are you saying you'd expect Daley or Schultz to be that good? There's a level of production that trumps your eye test.

 

[Fordy]

yes, if daley was played exactly like letang on the pp i'd expect him to have around those numbers

 

[Ogrezilla]

yes, if daley was played exactly like letang on the pp i'd expect him to have around those numbers

based on what? His career average 6 PPP a year, or his career best 12?

 

[Riptide]

based on what? He is a top 10 producer every year. He just lead our team in PPP. 2nd in the league for D. Are you saying you'd expect Daley or Schultz to be that good? There's a level of production that trumps your eye test.

And you think none of that just might be swayed by the fact that he's out on the ice with 2 generational players and a first line winger? Those guys will ALL put up points there. They're simply too skilled not to.

 

[ColePens]

I seriously hate when people look at stats and do not apply any situational understanding to it at all. Could it be that he's on a powerplay with Geno, Sid, Hornqvist, Kessel? No...why would it ever be that?

It's a special kind of blind-homerism to call Letang one of the best powerplay QBs in the league. That's just an absolute refusal to look at anything but a number. Even the biggest of Letang homers would probably commit to saying he's not a great PP player.

It's the same parochial view that couldn't comprehend why Schultz was a minus player in EDM but a plus player in Pittsburgh. It couldn't possibly have been that Schultz did have a lot of talent on a very poor team, could it? Of course it freaking is.

We can give Letang all the love in the world for being one of the best, if not the best, 5 on 5 defender in the league. But it's okay to admit the guy really isn't all that good on the powerplay. It isn't natural to him.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

Letang is better on the PP than a lot of people around here give him credit for, it's been evident for years that we're outright lousy on zone entry without him and that is a big part of the PP, but once inside the zone...yeah, there's a lot of room for improvement.

 

[ColePens]

I would say there is a happy medium, Big. Is he terrible? No... that's silly. If he a top powerplay QB? No. I've always said the offensive side of Letang isn't natural as it is for others such as OEL, Yandle, etc. Some guys just have that natural offensive ability. It looks/feels so natural. #58 works his ass off for everything he has. He has god-gifted athletic ability and turned it into a monster with his work ethic/preparation.

But just from being around and seeing the game and even playing the position, you can tell when people are good at what they do and when people are comfortable at what they do. Tangers is just that much stronger/faster that he ends up being better than most. But is it natural? No.

 

[Ogrezilla]

And you think none of that just might be swayed by the fact that he's out on the ice with 2 generational players and a first line winger? Those guys will ALL put up points there. They're simply too skilled not to.

I seriously hate when people look at stats and do not apply any situational understanding to it at all. Could it be that he's on a powerplay with Geno, Sid, Hornqvist, Kessel? No...why would it ever be that?

And yet, he put up more points then all of them last year on the PP.

I seriously hate when people just completely ignore the stats. Letang isn't just pretty productive on the PP, he's one of the top 10 over the last 5 years. 6th in PPP/60 min. A bad PP player simply would not put up the points that he does regardless of who he's with. And a bad PP player certainly wouldn't outproduce Sidney Crosby and Phil Kessel on the same powerplay as them.

Does he have a better situation than Schultz and Daley? Sure. But enough to justify double the PP production of Schultz or 5 times the production of Daley?

It's a special kind of blind-homerism to call Letang one of the best powerplay QBs in the league. That's just an absolute refusal to look at anything but a number. Even the biggest of Letang homers would probably commit to saying he's not a great PP player.

He's one of the best PP d-men in the league. That's not quite the same thing as QB. We do better when the puck runs through Sid or Geno. Letang at a standstill with the puck is absolutely one of his weakest points. But he's nowhere near as bad in the QB role as people here say he is either.

The fact that we have a very stationary powerplay with our group of players is bad coaching. It is coaching to both Letang's and Kessel's weaknesses. Letang should be skating, and Kessel shouldn't be setting up for one timers. But we do it every year. We try to setup like we have Sergei Gonchar at the point and a right handed James Neal on the left side.

It's the same parochial view that couldn't comprehend why Schultz was a minus player in EDM but a plus player in Pittsburgh. It couldn't possibly have been that Schultz did have a lot of talent on a very poor team, could it? Of course it freaking is.

Poor Schultz stuck on a powerplay with RNH, Taylor Hall, and Jordan Eberle. What a bunch of bums. But really, the top end talent at F has been EDM's only strength since Schultz joined the league.

We can give Letang all the love in the world for being one of the best, if not the best, 5 on 5 defender in the league. But it's okay to admit the guy really isn't all that good on the powerplay. It isn't natural to him.

He's a top 3 5 on 5 D-men in the league. I'd say he's in the 2nd tier of PP d-men. But he's absolutely still ahead of guys like Schultz and Daley. My issue isn't with people saying he's not elite on the PP, its with people saying he sucks. Its just blatantly false.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I would say there is a happy medium, Big. Is he terrible? No... that's silly. If he a top powerplay QB? No. I've always said the offensive side of Letang isn't natural as it is for others such as OEL, Yandle, etc. Some guys just have that natural offensive ability. It looks/feels so natural. #58 works his ass off for everything he has. He has god-gifted athletic ability and turned it into a monster with his work ethic/preparation.

But just from being around and seeing the game and even playing the position, you can tell when people are good at what they do and when people are comfortable at what they do. Tangers is just that much stronger/faster that he ends up being better than most. But is it natural? No.

I agree with this. Its not natural looking. Its not pretty. He doesn't play anything like a Gonchar did back there. But he is just a good enough athlete to still be more effective than most of the D-men in the league, even on the PP. Like I said, I'd have him somewhere in the second tier of PP D-men. The less you use him as a traditional QB, the higher up the list he goes.

 

[ColePens]

I personally don't doubt Letang could have gone professional in many sports with his work ethic and natural athleticism. When the word "freak" started being used in terms of athlete, it was created for people like him.

 

[#1GuinFan]

He's one of the best PP d-men in the league. That's not quite the same thing as QB. We do better when the puck runs through Sid or Geno. Letang at a standstill with the puck is absolutely one of his weakest points. But he's nowhere near as bad in the QB role as people here say he is either.

The fact that we have a very stationary powerplay with our group of players is bad coaching. It is coaching to both Letang's and Kessel's weaknesses. Letang should be skating, and Kessel shouldn't be setting up for one timers. But we do it every year. We try to setup like we have Sergei Gonchar at the point and a right handed James Neal on the left side.



Poor Schultz stuck on a powerplay with RNH, Taylor Hall, and Jordan Eberle. What a bunch of bums. But really, the top end talent at F has been EDM's only strength since Schultz joined the league.



He's a top 3 5 on 5 D-men in the league. I'd say he's in the 2nd tier of PP d-men. But he's absolutely still ahead of guys like Schultz and Daley. My issue isn't with people saying he's not elite on the PP, its with people saying he sucks. Its just blatantly false.

The eye test doesn't agree imo

 

[Ogrezilla]

The eye test doesn't agree imo

I addressed that. But there's a level of consistent production that trumps the eye test. Top 8 overall PPP for D and top 6 PPP/60 minutes for D over the last 5 years is really hard to argue with. 2nd in the league this year for D, 7th for all players. Led the Pens in PP points, outproducing both Sid and Kessel in less games. Those numbers don't happen by accident.

He's not as good on the PP as he is at ES. He's a top 3 ES d-man in the league imo. He's somewhere in the 2nd tier of PP d-men probably, so in the 6-12 range or so.