Salary Cap: 2016-17 roster-building part XIII | Contract/FA charts in post #1 | Cap set at $73M

[Paulie Gualtieri]

The way a guy plays is a lot more important to this team than his gifted production. I just want a player that's not going to look like **** on 80% of his shifts, and consistently botch plays/chances for the two best centers in the world. /shrug

I'll take a 5-10pt hit in production to get that. I'd even hazard a guess that Sid or Geno's production gets an uptick from a more effective, but less productive player. So much so that it'd make up the difference.

You are overreacting. If he is such a black whole on 80% of his shifts, he must be doing gods work on the other 20% of his shifts since he on average impacts his line very positively in terms of possession.

 

[Shady Machine]

Yeah man, you got me. Super irrational. Can't wait to have my eyes lie to me for a third season in a row.

You know I'm mostly giving you a hard time, but you definitely exaggerate with Kunitz. It's not so much that you are wrong about him, it's the words you use.

"Kunitz has been TERRIBLE since the Olympics" Objectively not true
"Nobody can convince me that Kunitz is even an adequate player" Again, objectively not true

Is he overpaid for what he is likely to bring (especially versus what our kids making 650K a year bring)? Yes probably.

Is he an ideal winger for Sid and Geno? No

Is he an obvious guy to move to open up cap space for likely better options? Yes

None of that makes him terrible or inadequate as an NHL hockey player

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

And I would do the same. I'd rather dump the cap hit and let someone else give it a try but as far as signings, but it's almost purely a money move. This is backup quarterback syndrome to an extent. Let's examine the playmaking abilities of a guy like Rust: he has very little. Same as Kunitz. Also, and I'm just thinking out loud here, but who plays in front of the net on the PP when Hornqvist isn't on the ice or injured? That's not a deal breaker for me necessarily, just saying they might consider things like that.

That's fair about Rust's playmaking. He's got a lot to work on there. But at the same time, all he has to do is fill the Hagelin niche on whatever line he's on. Be a puck-hound, forecheck hard, win battles and get Sid or Geno the puck. I think he's got a relatively unheralded knack for finishing too. I don't think he's got a great shot or release or anything, but he just finds ways to get the puck in the back of the net.

It's not an ideal situation, and I wish we could do better, but if we have to default to Rust, Wilson or Sheary to replace Kunitz after he's shipped out, so be it. I don't think we'd see any significant drop off in production, and certainly not in play on the ice.

But all the discussion is for nothing most likely. Doesn't matter what anyone thinks about Kunitz except for JR, and he seems to like him a lot. /shrug

 

[SEALBound]

You know I'm mostly giving you a hard time, but you definitely exaggerate with Kunitz. It's not so much that you are wrong about him, it's the words you use.

"Kunitz has been TERRIBLE since the Olympics" Objectively not true
"Nobody can convince me that Kunitz is even an adequate player" Again, objectively not true

Is he overpaid for what he is likely to bring (especially versus what our kids making 650K a year bring)? Yes probably.

Is he an ideal winger for Sid and Geno? No

Is he an obvious guy to move to open up cap space for likely better options? Yes

None of that makes him terrible or inadequate as an NHL hockey player

I agree. It's just basic asset management to move a guy like Kunitz now and use the space for an upgrade or give that slot to a younger guy ESPECIALLY when we have a defenseman and 4C need and a 1LW upgrade need.

 

[Pancakes]

JR can only do what Fleury's list allows him to do, and nobody knows the list. Everyone is caught up in blaming someone.

Unlike Shero though JR tends to blab about what he's done/is going to do to the media. He's flat out admitted he hasn't even explored trading Fleury, and that he genuinely wants to keep him.

Unless we assume JR is lying about that (I don't - he tends to do what he says), then the optics aren't good.

 

[chethejet]

Ray Shero mentioned he speaks to other GM's to see how they value his players. Since Kunitz has been shopped and no one is really interested at least for a trade of any value, what is the holdup? Buy him out and free up 2.3 million and use it proactively.

 

[SEALBound]

So I'm going to plant this mental ticking timebomb piece:

Clearly JR and Co aren't worried about picking anyone up today or even in the next couple of days. They like the roster and they are all but guaranteed to sign Vesey on August 15th. So they are currently saving room for Cullen and Vesey. And that will complete the off season roster.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

You know I'm mostly giving you a hard time, but you definitely exaggerate with Kunitz. It's not so much that you are wrong about him, it's the words you use.

"Kunitz has been TERRIBLE since the Olympics" Objectively not true
"Nobody can convince me that Kunitz is even an adequate player" Again, objectively not true

Is he overpaid for what he is likely to bring (especially versus what our kids making 650K a year bring)? Yes probably.

Is he an ideal winger for Sid and Geno? No

Is he an obvious guy to move to open up cap space for likely better options? Yes

None of that makes him terrible or inadequate as an NHL hockey player

This. Kunitz is the obvious guy to cut if we want to save cap space. However people are acting as if he is the spawn of Scuderi.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Yeah it was definitely weird. Maybe JR got the impression Fleury wanted out and then on Sid and Flower's magical vacation together (not sure if that actually happened but someone here was posting about it), Flower decided he was cool with staying.

Or bringing in a decent backup in case Murray falters was harder than expected. Or returns weren't in line with what we wanted, or would have hampered us in other ways. Or simply, perhaps, that MAF wasn't sought after by possible trade partners. I have no idea, not so I pretend I do.

But one thing is true- people really over simplify trades around here.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Ray Shero mentioned he speaks to other GM's to see how they value his players. Since Kunitz has been shopped and no one is really interested at least for a trade of any value, what is the holdup? Buy him out and free up 2.3 million and use it proactively.

This is a completely baseless statement. You have nothing to support this.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

Unlike Shero though JR tends to blab about what he's done/is going to do to the media. He's flat out admitted he hasn't even explored trading Fleury, and that he genuinely wants to keep him.

Unless we assume JR is lying about that (I don't - he tends to do what he says), then the optics aren't good.

Yeah but who cares about the optics? Believing anything a GM or coach says is the biggest waste of time on HFBoards, and that's saying something.

Plot twist for example: Fleury never had any intention of going anywhere if he could help it and JR asked for the 6th overall knowing Calgary would never take the deal, just to take the pressure off MAF. Completely plausible, along with about 50 other scenarios.

I can't assign blame to anyone when there just isn't anything close to a body of evidence to do so.

 

[Shwag33]

If kunitz was traded for a 7th round pick.... I wouldn't care. But buying him out would be stupid.

 

[SEALBound]

Ray Shero mentioned he speaks to other GM's to see how they value his players. Since Kunitz has been shopped and no one is really interested at least for a trade of any value, what is the holdup? Buy him out and free up 2.3 million and use it proactively.

BS. Source on that. Now.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

You are overreacting. If he is such a black whole on 80% of his shifts, he must be doing gods work on the other 20% of his shifts since he on average impacts his line very positively in terms of possession.

Nah, he just plays with two of the best players on Earth for an overwhelmingly large portion of his shifts.

Guess we have to see more evidence that he's been in a steep decline for years, in terms of effectiveness on the ice as well as production.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[HandshakeLine]

If there's one thing HF has taught me, it's that fans have no idea about any player's worth, ever. And that's not just me pissing on people here, that's an indisputable fact, not a condemnation of character or anything.

The fact is, we just don't know. And we'd be better served admitting that from time to time.

 

[Giant Yankee Pens]

Just another reason why carrying two #1 goalies is never a great idea. You really need a clear pecking order.

You play the guy who gives you the best chance to win that night. Same as this year... Hot hand gets the net, and that's how it should always be.

 

[Winger for Hire]

I don't understand the support (not much, but there's been some) for buying out contracts.

Unless the player is completely useless, I think the penalties outweigh the temporary cap relief.

Kunitz may be a shell of his former self, but I'd rather ride out this season with him and let him ride off into the sunset over letting him fester on the cap for an extra year.

 

[Shady Machine]

Or bringing in a decent backup in case Murray falters was harder than expected. Or returns weren't in line with what we wanted, or would have hampered us in other ways. Or simply, perhaps, that MAF wasn't sought after by possible trade partners. I have no idea, not so I pretend I do.

But one thing is true- people really over simplify trades around here.

All true. We do over simplify trades for sure. I just trusted what I heard and I still believe it. JR could have moved Fleury to Calgary for at least the Elliott return. JR didn't like that return and like you said, didn't think he could bring in the backup he would want. I have no way of knowing if that's actually what happened, but that's my plan and I'm sticking to it

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

Nah, he just plays with two of the best players on Earth for an overwhelmingly large portion of his shifts.

Guess we have to see more evidence that he's been in a steep decline for years, in terms of effectiveness on the ice as well as production.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Did you skip the part where I said that he alone impacts his linemates in a good way?

For the last time, I agree that Kunitz would be a nice cap dump. I'm just sick and tired of people exaggerating.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Damn, i totally forgot about the possibility of buying out Kunitz.
I take back the MAF buyout this yr(i was tipsy) and they should've bought out Kunitz.
Especially if you have assurances from MAF that he'll waive to LV if it gets to a crisis point.

 

[Shady Machine]

If there's one thing HF has taught me, it's that fans have no idea about any player's worth, ever. And that's not just me pissing on people here, that's an indisputable fact, not a condemnation of character or anything.

The fact is, we just don't know. And we'd be better served admitting that from time to time.

We don't know because value fluctuates a lot and is circumstantial (plus we are morons hiding behind a keyboard).

Like Taylor Hall, for example, in a vacuum is worth more than Adam Larsson. A unnamed GM said something like "Edmonton should have called me, I'd have given them a much better return than Larsson". But for Edmonton, they had a specific desired need and that was a right handed top pairing 2 way defensman. There aren't many of those around and most aren't convinced Larsson is even that, but he was the closest they could find so they traded Hall.

I don't think that example shows that HFBoards posters are idiots for thinking Hall should return more (universally every hockey commentator I've heard from think the Oilers got ripped from a value perspective), but it shows how much value fluctuates in the NHL.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

I don't understand the support (not much, but there's been some) for buying out contracts.

Unless the player is completely useless, I think the penalties outweigh the temporary cap relief.

Kunitz may be a shell of his former self, but I'd rather ride out this season with him and let him ride off into the sunset over letting him fester on the cap for an extra year.

Yeah in general I'm pretty against buyouts for this team in any fashion. We will always be trying to get under the cap. Even $1-2 million in buyout cap space would hinder us. Gotta find another way.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Did you skip the part where I said that he alone impacts his linemates in a good way?

For the last time, I agree that Kunitz would be a nice cap dump. I'm just sick and tired of people exaggerating.

No, I didn't miss that, I just remember the past couple years of his blunders and think those outweigh a couple of graphs and percentages.

Kunitz got replaced by Sheary in the playoffs. Now, I'm not saying Sheary is useless, but he's not anything great imo. His advanced stats must not have been too important when he was directly contributing to Sid's line playing poorly in the Rangers series, which lead to the swap.

 

[KIRK]

Kunitz,...he is just,....there

Chance the Hockey Player?

 

[KIRK]

If there's one thing HF has taught me, it's that fans have no idea about any player's worth, ever. And that's not just me pissing on people here, that's an indisputable fact, not a condemnation of character or anything.

The fact is, we just don't know. And we'd be better served admitting that from time to time.

When did you sober up?