Salary Cap: 2016-17 roster-building part V | Contract chart, cap info in post #1

[Empoleon8771]

Kunitz stats:

-80 games, 17 goals, 40 points and 264 hits in the regular season
-15 goals and 34 points at ES in the regular season
-20 games, 4 goals, 11 points and 74 hits in the playoffs
-2 goals and 8 points at ES in the playoffs

Ladd stats:

-78 games, 25 goals, 46 points and 155 hits in the regular season
-15 goals and 32 points at ES in the regular season
-7 games, 1 goal, 2 points and 36 hits in the playoffs
-1 goal and 2 points at ES in the playoffs

So how is Ladd a better option than Kunitz?

 

[mpp9]

Why would Ladd be a better option here than Kunitz already is? Both had around the same production this year, both throw a bunch of hits and Kunitz has even produced better in the playoffs and costs about 2/3 of what Ladd will be making.

One guy scored 25 goals with 30 seconds more PP TOI/game than Kunitz and 30 seconds less than PH. That's 8 more goals than Kunitz and 3 more than PH. Ladd did play with good players this season, and so did Kunitz and PH.

Management would need to be certain his dip in play was due to the sports hernia offseason surgery. If we had brought his name up at the beginning of the season, I doubt we'd be shooting his name down so quickly.

 

[Penske]

I wouldn't be using up our capspace on longer deals on older players in FA. It's not a strong FA this year for what we need.

Either trade for what we need or stick with what we've got. Come deadline with lots of capspace can open up a lot of possibilities for us.

 

[Empoleon8771]

One guy scored 25 goals with 30 seconds more PP TOI/game than Kunitz and 30 seconds less than PH. That's 8 more goals than Kunitz and 3 more than PH. Ladd did play with good players this season, and so did Kunitz and PH.

Management would need to be certain his dip in play was due to the sports hernia offseason surgery. If we had brought his name up at the beginning of the season, I doubt we'd be shooting his name down so quickly.

Kunitz and Ladd produced the exact same at ES this year. Any difference in their production came from Ladd's 10 PPGs to Kunitz's 2. Ladd also didn't have the dreadful start to the season that the entire Penguins team had under Mike Johnston. Ladd does well exactly what Hornqvist and Kunitz do well on the PP, so he wouldn't be getting the inflating goal totals from the PP that he got this year on the Penguins. He'd be producing basically the exact same as Kunitz here.

Ladd sucks, I really don't know how else to put it. I am completely flabbergast that people that want to ship Kunitz off so fast want to sign freaking Ladd to a 6 year deal. Look at his stats this year. Look at his career playoff stats. Go read what numerous Jets fans and Hawks fans think of him. He's not good.

 

[Penske]

Rather trade for tatar than give ladd 6 million

Yeah he looks like a good fit for us us. It would be great if JR could work out a way to get him and Krieder.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

Kreider probably would be a decent fit. I doubt the Rangers would be really thrilled to deal him to us though. Plus, I don't want to trade for anyone that we'll likely have to expose in the upcoming expansion drafts. Seems pretty foolish to waste good assets on someone and then lose him for nothing. If we sign a UFA and lose him then? Oh well, it really didn't cost us anything. We'll just get cap-space back to sign someone else then.

Makes complete sense. We should be focusing on trading our assets for defensive depth, a backup goalie, and picks/prospects instead.

Who would you target on the FA market than?

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

Yeah he looks like a good fit for us us. It would be great if JR could work out a way to get him and Krieder.

I find it hard to believe that our roster could get this stacked. Besides, Sheary and Rust deserve a spot in the top 9 so far. If any one doesn't live up to their current play, Wilson can be the filler to replace them. Adding one scoring winger would be enough I feel.

 

[mpp9]

Kunitz and Ladd produced the exact same at ES this year. Any difference in their production came from Ladd's 10 PPGs to Kunitz's 2. Ladd also didn't have the dreadful start to the season that the entire Penguins team had under Mike Johnston. Ladd does well exactly what Hornqvist and Kunitz do well on the PP, so he wouldn't be getting the inflating goal totals from the PP that he got this year on the Penguins. He'd be producing basically the exact same as Kunitz here.

Ladd sucks, I really don't know how else to put it. I am completely flabbergast that people that want to ship Kunitz off so fast want to sign freaking Ladd to a 6 year deal. Look at his stats this year. Look at his career playoff stats. Go read what numerous Jets fans and Hawks fans think of him. He's not good.

Ladd had equally horrendous start to his season due to injury as the Pens did. Again, you're just looking past years of production because of one down season where he still outscored every winger on this team except Kessel.

Signing him to such a deal would mean giving him more than usual 2nd PP unit minutes. Seeing as how the guy had ten PP goals last season, they should. He's another PP net presence. He'll get his looks especially when PH has a ****** game, they move guys off of units or they want to throw 2 guys in front.

He had one more PP goal than PH in 30 seconds less PP TOI/game. Maybe he could be useful there?

It's one thing not to sign guys who'd be playing in 87, 71 or 81's spots on the PP, because the team's going to cater to them first. But we've already seen the coaching staff boot PH from the top unit from time to time and replace him with a guy who had all of 2 PP goals in the regular season and only 30 seconds less TOI/game than Ladd.

He doesn't suck. It's cool if you don't want to sign him, but I'd be surprised if JR isn't asking about him this summer if they have plans to move Kunitz and get a guy who can play on our 2nd line for the next few years.

 

[mpp9]

Also, if you want to argue age and wear and tear. Hornqvist is only a year younger than Ladd. Would you be against re-signing him if he has a down year next season?

 

[Speaking Moistly]

I find it hard to believe that our roster could get this stacked. Besides, Sheary and Rust deserve a spot in the top 9 so far. If any one doesn't live up to their current play, Wilson can be the filler to replace them. Adding one scoring winger would be enough I feel.

Sheary has some pretty glaring consistency and size issues so over a full season I'd have concerns about him.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

Ladd had equally horrendous start to his season due to injury as the Pens did. Again, you're just looking past years of production because of one down season where he still outscored every winger on this team except Kessel.

Signing him to such a deal would mean giving him more than usual 2nd PP unit minutes. Seeing as how the guy had ten PP goals last season, they should. He's another PP net presence. He'll get his looks especially when PH has a ****** game, they move guys off of units or they want to throw 2 guys in front.

He had one more PP goal than PH in 30 seconds less PP TOI/game. Maybe he could be useful there?

It's one thing not to sign guys who'd be playing in 87, 71 or 81's spots on the PP, because the team's going to cater to them first. But we've already seen the coaching staff boot PH from the top unit from time to time and replace him with a guy who had all of 2 PP goals in the regular season and only 30 seconds less TOI/game than Ladd.

He doesn't suck. It's cool if you don't want to sign him, but I'd be surprised if JR isn't asking about him this summer if they have plans to move Kunitz and get a guy who can play on our 2nd line for the next few years.

As I said earlier, I wouldn't want to sign a 30 y/o winger to something similar to a 6+ mil$ x 6 deal. And I wouldn't be surprised if he asked for an NMC either.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

Sheary has some pretty glaring consistency and size issues so over a full season I'd have concerns about him.

That's where Wilson, or possibly Bennett steps in.

 

[Zero Pucks]

I wouldn't be using up our capspace on longer deals on older players in FA. It's not a strong FA this year for what we need.

Either trade for what we need or stick with what we've got. Come deadline with lots of capspace can open up a lot of possibilities for us.

Why does everyone keep saying this? This year is amazing compared to other years. Next year's market looks like complete crap, if you haven't looked. Who was the big catch last year? Frolik? The year before that? Hemsky, Vanek and Kulemin?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Ladd had equally horrendous start to his season due to injury as the Pens did. Again, you're just looking past years of production because of one down season where he still outscored every winger on this team except Kessel.

And again, Ladd produced at the same exact rate as Kunitz at ES. That didn't change when he went to Chicago either. You keep ignoring that fact. I don't particularly care what Ladd did in past seasons. Kunitz was nearly a 70 point forward as recently as 2013-2014, so why are people talking about trading him?

Signing him to such a deal would mean giving him more than usual 2nd PP unit minutes. Seeing as how the guy had ten PP goals last season, they should. He's another PP net presence. He'll get his looks especially when PH has a ****** game, they move guys off of units or they want to throw 2 guys in front.

So who are they taking off that 1st unit? They're obviously not taking Crosby, Letang or Malkin off the top unit. Are they going to put Kessel on the 2nd unit? Why don't they just do that now with Kunitz and Hornqvist in front of the net?

He had one more PP goal than PH in 30 seconds less PP TOI/game. Maybe he could be useful there?

And he was no better than Kunitz at ES. I don't give a damn if he's marginally producing better than Hornqvist on the PP, especially when people are advocating spending $6 million on him. Even if Ladd is an upgrade on Hornqvist on the PP (which I don't even think he is), that's not worth $6 million and screwing over the main centerpiece of the Neal trade who was brought in for the exact thing that you're advocating Ladd to be doing.

It's one thing not to sign guys who'd be playing in 87, 71 or 81's spots on the PP, because the team's going to cater to them first. But we've already seen the coaching staff boot PH from the top unit from time to time and replace him with a guy who had all of 2 PP goals in the regular season and only 30 seconds less TOI/game than Ladd.

Why do you keep mentioning TOI? TOI doesn't talk about quality of linemates at all. The Pens 2nd PP unit is garbage. Kunitz playing 30 seconds less than Ladd on the PP really shows nothing at all. If Ladd is playing 2:30 on the top PP every game vs 2:00 for Kunitz on the 2nd unit, Ladd is obviously going to produce more.

He doesn't suck. It's cool if you don't want to sign him, but I'd be surprised if JR isn't asking about him this summer if they have plans to move Kunitz and get a guy who can play on our 2nd line for the next few years.

He sucks just as much as Kunitz does.

Again, you haven't provided a legit reason to sign Ladd. In fact, your defense of signing him makes me want him even less now, since you're advocating him taking Hornqvist's spot on the top PP unit (a position that he's among the best in the league at, by the way).

Also, if you want to argue age and wear and tear. Hornqvist is only a year younger than Ladd. Would you be against re-signing him if he has a down year next season?

Hornqvist isn't a free agent after next year, so I don't even know why you're bringing up this scenario. If Hornqvist sucks in the 17-18 season, then yes, I would certainly be against re-signing him for $6 million a year for long term.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Also, if you want to argue age and wear and tear. Hornqvist is only a year younger than Ladd. Would you be against re-signing him if he has a down year next season?

I'm really worried about Hornqvist aging and a contract after this one, tbh. He takes so much abuse and I don't think he could transition into a different role.

I don't want Ladd (or god damn Lucic) but if we did sign him it would have to be for Malkin with someone like Sprong or poor Bennett on the other side. We'd still probably be looking at Crosby's LW as a problem and Malkin would then be reliant on Sprong being ready, Bennett being alive or someone else filling the spot.

 

[mpp9]

As I said earlier, I wouldn't want to sign a 30 y/o winger to something similar to a 6+ mil$ x 6 deal. And I wouldn't be surprised if he asked for an NMC either.

I've made it clear I would't pay 6. I said something inbetween what PH currently makes and that figure.

Another point. Maybe having another guy who can play your net front role reduces the wear and tear on PH over the course of the season? Kunitz doesn't have the hands around the net for it anymore.

 

[KIRK]

I see we've moved from trading Malkin to spending the bulk of available free agency cash on a long term deal for Ladd . . .

 

[Speaking Moistly]

That's where Wilson, or possibly Bennett steps in.

Bennett who has talked about quitting hockey and who keeps getting hurt? He might not even be here next season. Wilson with 25 NHL games and coming off whatever that lower body injury was?

I like all of these players but there's a lot of unknowns around them. So to talk about deserving a top 9 spot and then going to another one if that fails is really premature. Even Rust with Malkin is a very small sample size.

 

[Empoleon8771]

If the Penguins are going to sign a big name free agent for a lot of money, it needs to be someone who can produce at ES and doesn't need PP points to inflate his totals. Even in Ladd's best seasons statistically, he was getting nearly a third of his production on the PPs. Here is his ES production over the last 3 years:

15-16: 15 goals and 32 points in 78 games
14-15: 15 goals and 43 points in 81 games
13-14: 19 goals and 44 points in 78 games

Going back even further, he pretty consistently falls in the ~15 goal, ~40 point range at ES, and that's ignoring the big downturn he had this year. That's the level of production you get from guys like Jokinen, Atkinson, Oshie, Vrbata and Pominville. Those are obviously good players, but not nearly worth $6 million on a long term deal after a bad season. Would you trade for Pominville and his $5.6 million salary after his bad season last year? I could use the same exact argument that some are using for Ladd to promote Pominville. Pominville would even make more sense stylistically than Ladd too.

 

[KIRK]

If the Penguins are going to sign a big name free agent for a lot of money, it needs to be someone who can produce at ES and doesn't need PP points to inflate his totals. Even in Ladd's best seasons statistically, he was getting nearly a third of his production on the PPs. Here is his ES production over the last 3 years:

15-16: 15 goals and 32 points in 78 games
14-15: 15 goals and 43 points in 81 games
13-14: 19 goals and 44 points in 78 games

Going back even further, he pretty consistently falls in the ~15 goal, ~40 point range at ES, and that's ignoring the big downturn he had this year. That's the level of production you get from guys like Jokinen, Atkinson, Oshie, Vrbata and Pominville. Those are obviously good players, but not nearly worth $6 million on a long term deal.

Yeah, but with Sid or Geno . . .

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I think even at 4-5m/yr, he was out of Chicago's price range. I think people are reading too much into that. If anything, he wants term, he's older and he wants to win another cup and not move his family around and stay in a nice community.

Also, I get Ladd only for Malkin, he's the luxury edition of Malone/Jokinen for his LW.

 

[mpp9]

And again, Ladd produced at the same exact rate as Kunitz at ES. That didn't change when he went to Chicago either. You keep ignoring that fact. I don't particularly care what Ladd did in past seasons. Kunitz was nearly a 70 point forward as recently as 2013-2014, so why are people talking about trading him?

I'm not ignoring anything. I'm pointing out that Ladd could give you another net front option on the PP and has the PP numbers to back it up. I don't see why you wouldn't be fine giving him looks there over PH (he has bad games and our PP is far from being above shaken up from time to time). This isn't a case of Boedker not playing over 87 or 71 on the PP so we shouldn't sign him.

I'm fine with going with different looks on the top unit over the course of an 82+game season. If anything, next season should be about figuring that **** out.

So who are they taking off that 1st unit? They're obviously not taking Crosby, Letang or Malkin off the top unit. Are they going to put Kessel on the 2nd unit? Why don't they just do that now with Kunitz and Hornqvist in front of the net?

They've already put Kessel on his own unit at times this season. They've replaced PH with Kunitz as their PP TOI stats will show.

They did use Kunitz and PH on a unit together last season when it looked its best. Kunitz doesn't score much on the PP anymore though. His hands are pretty much done.

And he was no better than Kunitz at ES. I don't give a damn if he's marginally producing better than Hornqvist on the PP, especially when people are advocating spending $6 million on him. Even if Ladd is an upgrade on Hornqvist on the PP (which I don't even think he is), that's not worth $6 million and screwing over the main centerpiece of the Neal trade who was brought in for the exact thing that you're advocating Ladd to be doing.

I have no problem with competition for spots. Kunitz isn't actual competition when it comes to PP production.

And last I checked, net presences function at ES as well. PH is still very useful there as we saw on both of Sheary's goals in the Final.

Hornqvist isn't a free agent after next year, so I don't even know why you're bringing up this scenario. If Hornqvist sucks in the 17-18 season, then yes, I would certainly be against re-signing him for $6 million a year for long term.

You really need to get beyond the 6 mil/year thing. I've said now multiple times I wouldn't sign him at that number. If he wants to go to a team that can win anytime soon, he ain't getting that money.

And yes, I know PH has 2 more years on his deal. It's quite common for your better players to negotiate the summer before their deals expire.

What would you sign PH for if he had the type of season Ladd just had, then? Kunitz will be a UFA at that point, and you have no internal options to replace him beyond that.

 

[KIRK]

I think even at 4-5m/yr, he was out of Chicago's price range. I think people are reading too much into that. If anything, he wants term, he's older and he wants to win another cup and not move his family around and stay in a nice community.

Also, I get Ladd only for Malkin, he's the luxury edition of Malone/Jokinen for his LW.

4 years ago, he would've been perfect for Malkin.

He might be really good for two, maybe even three years. But, I'm afraid you'll regret the tail end of a Ladd long term contract more than one regrets the tail end of Kunitz's deal.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

4 years ago, he would've been perfect for Malkin.

He might be really good for two, maybe even three years. But, I'm afraid you'll regret the tail end of a Ladd long term contract more than one regrets the tail end of Kunitz's deal.

No, he's still perfect for him. And he's turning 31 in December, I don't think he's looking for a 5yr deal, the guy likely doesn't want to play forever. I am guessing he takes 3yrs or 4yrs max.

For the Penguins, I would only offer 3yrs at most, with a 4.5-5m/yr cap per year for him. That's enough time/window for another cup and call it quits at 34-35yrs old.

 

[KIRK]

No, he's still perfect for him. And he's turning 31 in December, I don't think he's looking for a 5yr deal, the guy likely doesn't want to play forever. I am guessing he takes 3yrs or 4yrs max.

For the Penguins, I would only offer 3yrs at most, with a 4.5-5m/yr cap per year for him. That's enough time/window for another cup and call it quits at 34-35yrs old.

I can get behind that. Totally different than what others are discussing. Make the offer. If he balks, you move on. No more term. No more money.