Pre-Game Talk: 2015 NHL Entry Draft - Part VI

[Drop the Sopel]

...But, a Lucic acquisition isn't about pure ability. He just had a poor season. What would his acquisition attest to?

It's not about bringing in just good human beings, it's about prioritizing that aspect above all other aspects.

Difference in contrasting this with Gillis is that MG picked Hodgson first, a highly productive (draft year) skill player. So his rhetoric was judged as a compliment to drafting production + skill first. On the flip side, Benning picked a lower PPG player (relative to his peers) in Virtanen, so he has already prioritized non-production with his best pick. This lends people to view Benning as weighting those non-qualitative factors more than his predecessor.


Edit: Aaand MS beat me to it.

I'm assuming the ability to score 30 goals and play an abrasive brand of hockey. Likely the same reason 25 other teams are likely inquiring...

Good example with Virtanen. He was not seen as a high character player in his draft year at all. Whereas Gillis did take the character player in Hodgson over the toolsy, big dman in Tyler Myers.

There is no reason to believe Benning has targeted character over skillsets based on his first draft, and subsequent trades for young Pro's. Quite the opposite actually. If anything, you could say he seems to be targeting toolsy guys that excel in a certain area - specialty type players.

Taking a guy in the 7th Rd is a symbol of nothing. It's literally a throw-away asset with virtually no chance of making a meaningful impact in your organization. Wake me up when we see this trend with a half way valuable piece. As of today, that hasn't happened.

 

[MS]

Sbisa has never been known as a high character player.

Eddie Lack has a better reputation than Miller in terms of character.

Was it 'stone age thinking' when Mike Gillis wouldn't shut up about character, intelligence and integrity every single time he talked about the players he was going to target too? No, it's the same buzz words every single organization uses. Not some other organizations - every single one.

Benning is targeting guys he think will be good hockey players. He's not targeting the Virtanen, Tryamkin, Pedant, Baertschi, Clendening and Lucic's of the league for their character. Skillets is at the forefront of virtually every single decision Benning has made thus far, with character a secondary consideration.

You have spun every single word or interview management has made into a major negative. This isn't a reflection on management...

Sbisa is most definitely known as a hard-working, character guy. It's referenced constantly by coaches and management. And comes through in interviews - he seems well-spoken, dedicated, sincere and likeable. He just stinks.

Eddie Lack is generally considered 'flaky twitter guy'. Miller has been perceived as sulky elsewhere but this management group constantly refers to his stabilizing presence and calming influence.

Of course not every move fits into the same box. But we have multiple examples - especially in terms of drafting/development - of the team putting this sort of dinosaur thinking into play.

I could care less about what Gillis said or did. What we're talking about is what this organization is saying and how it lines up with their actions.

The comments on the Stewart signing (which you freaked out about at the time) line up pretty much verbatim with that draft video.

“He is the type of kid that if there’s any way to figure out how to be a NHL player, he is going to do it,†Benning said. “He’s serious about wanting to be a player. He is going to leave no stone unturned to try and make it as a player. I have seen through the years kids that have this sort of intensity and they kind of figure out a way.â€

Benning said Stewart will start next season with Utica.

“We signed him to a contract, he’ll start off in Utica and we’ll see how that goes and go from there. He’s a fantastic kid and a total team player.â

 

[Huggy]

Sbisa is most definitely known as a hard-working, character guy. It's referenced constantly by coaches and management. And comes through in interviews - he seems well-spoken, dedicated, sincere and likeable. He just stinks.

This is the crux of Sbisa hate.

He stinks, no reasoning just he sucks

I agree he was less than average, would stanton or bieksa be better I disagree and simply refuse anyone saying otherwise

 

[Bgav]

This is the crux of Sbisa hate.

He stinks, no reasoning just he sucks

What? How are there no reasons?

 

[Drop the Sopel]

Eddie Lack is generally considered 'flaky twitter guy'.

I could care less about what Gillis said or did. What we're talking about is what this organization is saying and how it lines up with their actions.

So Lack went from 'most likeable character on the team' to 'flaky twitter guy' now? When the hell did this happen? Lack is more known for his character than anything else - Miller is the complete opposite, and has been seen as a brooding, selfish, unlikable goalie most of his career. Sorry, this example doesn't fly.

So now you have 1 example in McKenzie Stewart, with what, 20 personnel moves made by Benning since he was hired? Yeah, I'm sure you can see why this seems more than a little bit ridiculous at this point...

In your opinion, was it dinosaur talk of Gillis to repeat 'character, intelligence and integrity' over and overt again in his first year in Vancouver? The answer to this question will tell you all you need to know on this topic.

 

[MS]

This is the crux of Sbisa hate.

He stinks, no reasoning just he sucks

Have you literally read nothing here for the last year?

The reasoning for why he stinks is endless. You could write a novel on it.

- he has major deficiencies in core important skills ... low IQ player, poor at reading the play, awful puck skills, panics in pressure situations.

- eye test confirms he's an awful player.

- traditional stats confirm he's an awful player.

- advanced stats confirm he's an awful player, one of the worst regular defenders in the league.

- salary is absolutely absurd.

 

[Ryp37]

How was Virtanen not seen as a character guy? Everyone raved about his personality during the combine


And DTS your right every team talks about character, not every team sounds like they'll base their later round picks on it because "burrows had a good attitude too!"

 

[MS]

So Lack went from 'most likeable character on the team' to 'flaky twitter guy' now? When the hell did this happen? Lack is more known for his character than anything else - Miller is the complete opposite, and has been seen as a brooding, selfish, unlikable goalie most of his career. Sorry, this example doesn't fly.

So now you have 1 example in McKenzie Stewart, with what, 20 personnel moves made by Benning since he was hired? Yeah, I'm sure you can see why this seems more than a little bit ridiculous at this point...

In your opinion, was it dinosaur talk of Gillis to repeat 'character, intelligence and integrity' over and overt again in his first year in Vancouver? The answer to this question will tell you all you need to know on this topic.

Can you make a single post without mentioning Mike Gillis? Who the **** cares at this point? He's gone and his drafting wasn't good enough. We're talking about the current group and what they're saying and what they're doing.

Fans find Lack likeable. The general 'perception' - from what I can see - around NHL circles and the media is that he's 'flaky twitter guy'. I disagree completely, but I think that's his reputation.

We have Stewart, we have Pettit, we have Sbisa. Virtanen was the 'character guy' compared to Dal Colle (who we had him ahead of according to reports), Nylander, Ehlers.

Again, it isn't just these comments in a vacuum. It's these sort of comments being repeated when we make terrible moves like Sbisa and Stewart. And it doesn't fill you with confidence that this group is thinking in this century.

 

[arttk]

Have you literally read nothing here for the last year?

The reasoning for why he stinks is endless. You could write a novel on it.

- he has major deficiencies in core important skills ... low IQ player, poor at reading the play, awful puck skills, panics in pressure situations.

- eye test confirms he's an awful player.

- traditional stats confirm he's an awful player.

- advanced stats confirm he's an awful player, one of the worst regular defenders in the league.

- salary is absolutely absurd.

It seems like this gets listed every other page and yet we still have like 2 or 3 posters saying stupid **** like, why would you say Sbisa sucks.

 

[Drop the Sopel]

How was Virtanen not seen as a character guy? Everyone raved about his personality during the combine

He was never seen as a high character player. He's a character, in that he's got a big mouth and sense of humour. But he's not captain material, like we heard about Hodgson, Horvat etc...

Don't make me play the Evader Kane card! Surely I'm not the only one that remembers Benning was going hard after Kane - the player with the worst character in hockey.

If Lucic didn't wise you guys up, surely Evader Kane will.

 

[Ryp37]

He was never seen as a high character player. He's a character, in that he's got a big mouth and sense of humour. But he's not captain material, like we heard about Hodgson, Horvat etc...

Don't make me play the Evader Kane card! Surely I'm not the only one that remembers Benning was going hard after Kane - the player with the worst character in hockey.

If Lucic didn't wise you guys up, surely Evader Kane will.

Meat potatoes and character, the Benning trifecta

 

[Bleach Clean]

I'm assuming the ability to score 30 goals and play an abrasive brand of hockey. Likely the same reason 25 other teams are likely inquiring...

It's that "abrasive brand of hockey" bit that has him overvalued. The point is about prioritizing non-production based traits. Lucic is a perfect example of this. He had a dismal year and was visibly slower than in the past, yet Benning and others are showing keen interest? Why? It's because of prioritizing those non-skill based traits.

BOS fans have been lamenting Lucic's contract for a while now.

Good example with Virtanen. He was not seen as a high character player in his draft year at all. Whereas Gillis did take the character player in Hodgson over the toolsy, big dman in Tyler Myers.

There is no reason to believe Benning has targeted character over skillsets based on his first draft, and subsequent trades for young Pro's. Quite the opposite actually. If anything, you could say he seems to be targeting toolsy guys that excel in a certain area - specialty type players.

When was the nebulous "Skillsets" introduced here? I'm speaking to non-production based traits, one of which is the measure of character vs production. Benning has proven to prioritize NPBT's with his most important selection. Gillis didn't do that. That's why many people aside from MS are getting worried by that video.

Your choice to spin that Virtanen/Hodgson point. I hope for others that it is clear enough.

Taking a guy in the 7th Rd is a symbol of nothing. It's literally a throw-away asset with virtually no chance of making a meaningful impact in your organization. Wake me up when we see this trend with a half way valuable piece. As of today, that hasn't happened.

I could not disagree more. The depth rounds is where people really find out about a teams methodology and ability in drafting. Even if a pick fails, which it is likely to do, I want to see a real improvement in what they are choosing to target, even that late.

I would not have expected an Ondrej Palat fan to say this... It absolutely matters.

 

[MS]

He was never seen as a high character player. He's a character, in that he's got a big mouth and sense of humour. But he's not captain material, like we heard about Hodgson, Horvat etc...

Don't make me play the Evader Kane card! Surely I'm not the only one that remembers Benning was going hard after Kane - the player with the worst character in hockey.

If Lucic didn't wise you guys up, surely Evader Kane will.

There's a bit of a difference between philosophy in terms of picking up established players and in terms of drafting/development.

And of course not every move will fit into the same box, for any GM.

The main discussion here is how we draft in the mid-late rounds. What was said in that clip, and how it is supported by the Stewart/Pettit picks.

 

[CanaFan]

Sbisa is most definitely known as a hard-working, character guy. It's referenced constantly by coaches and management. And comes through in interviews - he seems well-spoken, dedicated, sincere and likeable. He just stinks.

Eddie Lack is generally considered 'flaky twitter guy'. Miller has been perceived as sulky elsewhere but this management group constantly refers to his stabilizing presence and calming influence.

Of course not every move fits into the same box. But we have multiple examples - especially in terms of drafting/development - of the team putting this sort of dinosaur thinking into play.

I could care less about what Gillis said or did. What we're talking about is what this organization is saying and how it lines up with their actions.

The comments on the Stewart signing (which you freaked out about at the time) line up pretty much verbatim with that draft video.

Sure there are a few - you can find examples of GMs adding "character players" or talking about "calming, veteran presence" yada yada on every team in the NHL. Even everyone's build-with-skill darling Stevie Y understood the value of bringing in a high-character depth player when he signed Boyle last summer. It isn't *only* Benning who uses these words and values these elements.

Now perhaps Benning focuses on them too much or prioritizes them too much in his drafting and trades?

So let's recap his 2014 draft and 2014/15 trades to see where he has left talent on the table to prioritize "character":

Rd 1: Jake Virtanen - You could argue he prioritized "tools" over "production" but hardly a player known for his elite character. Hell, he was called out (mildly) by Benning this spring for not being in top condition.

Rd 1: Jared McCann - Again, seems to be a case of "tools" or perhaps "style" over production. I don't get the sense the JM is a case of sterling character or undeniable will to succeed.

Rd 2: Thatcher Demko - Highly rated goalie. Seems to have prioritized "results".

Rd 3: Nikita Tryamkin - Don't know enough about the kid to say but "high character" + "Russian" aren't exactly an axiom in hockey circles.

Rd 5: Gustav Forsling - See Tryamkin.

Rd 6: Kyle Pettit - A strange pick no doubt and the first glaring instance of probably prioritizing "intangibles" over "tangibles".

Rd 7: Mackenze Stewart - See Pettit. Bringing the total up to 2 out of 6 picks.


Now let's look at trades over last year:

Linden Vey - Not a great looking trade to-date and possibly a mis-scout. However Vey had the production at both WHL and AHL levels to suggest he had some decent upside. Again, not sure "character" was an overwhelming attribute here.

Adam Clendening - Similar to Vey. AHL production and waiver wire eligibility seems to have driven this decision.

Andrey Pedan - Seems like a hard working kid but also not without his tools. Seems more like a Vey/Clendening situation where Benning felt there was an arbitrage opportunity due to the Islanders Dman depth.

Sven Baertschi - Probably the best case of Benning prioritizing "skill" over "character" or "hard work", at least if you listen to fellow luddite Brian Burke describe the reasons they cast Baertschi away.


If you want to include UFA prospects, you could argue that Ashton Sautner probably leads with "character" and "hard work" but then he was a free asset, so it's hard to say if that means anything.


Anyway, I'm not saying that Benning DOESN'T give a high degree of value to hard work and character - I think you would find most NHL types do - but I don't see an overwhelming number of Pettit and Mackenze-type decisions in Benning's 12 months here. In fact, those are largely the only ones that fit the bill. And while yes it is definitely a bad strategy to have employed on a 6th and 7th round pick, I would also counsel a little bit of perspective be applied here. I mean Gillis once drafted a 20 year old in the 2nd round, so all GM's are prone to bad bouts of thinking and strategy. Doesn't mean it is a priority or directive based on two late round selections.

 

[Drop the Sopel]

And of course not every move will fit into the same box, for any GM.

But if virtually none of the meaningful moves have this mindset at the fore, it just speaks to how little emphasis they're actually putting on character.

They're using 7th Rd picks on 'character', while willing to pay a king's ransom for guys like Kane/Lucic. That tells me all I need to know about how much value they put on these traits.

The Canucks value character, just like every other team in the NHL. But it won't get in the way of acquiring the pieces they feel will be the best NHL players. That's where the story ends.

 

[CanaFan]

When was the nebulous "Skillsets" introduced here? I'm speaking to non-production based traits, one of which is the measure of character vs production. Benning has proven to prioritize NPBT's with his most important selection. Gillis didn't do that. That's why many people aside from MS are getting worried by that video.

Bad form jumping into you and DTS's discussion but I wanted to suggest that it seems a bit ... sloppy ... to lump anything that is not production-based under "NPBT". "Character" is as different from "Skills" as the latter is from "Production". Virtanen indexed highest on tools, but was not wholly deficient in production either - his 35 ES goals were tops in the entire draft IIRC. So I disagree with trying to position Virtanen as a "Non-production" and therefore a "Character" or "Intangibles" pick. The basis for drafting Virtanen was not the same as the basis for drafting Pettit or Stewart. Totally night and day.

 

[MS]

Sure there are a few - you can find examples of GMs adding "character players" or talking about "calming, veteran presence" yada yada on every team in the NHL. Even everyone's build-with-skill darling Stevie Y understood the value of bringing in a high-character depth player when he signed Boyle last summer. It isn't *only* Benning who uses these words and values these elements.

Now perhaps Benning focuses on them too much or prioritizes them too much in his drafting and trades?

So let's recap his 2014 draft and 2014/15 trades to see where he has left talent on the table to prioritize "character":

Rd 1: Jake Virtanen - You could argue he prioritized "tools" over "production" but hardly a player known for his elite character. Hell, he was called out (mildly) by Benning this spring for not being in top condition.

Rd 1: Jared McCann - Again, seems to be a case of "tools" or perhaps "style" over production. I don't get the sense the JM is a case of sterling character or undeniable will to succeed.

Rd 2: Thatcher Demko - Highly rated goalie. Seems to have prioritized "results".

Rd 3: Nikita Tryamkin - Don't know enough about the kid to say but "high character" + "Russian" aren't exactly an axiom in hockey circles.

Rd 5: Gustav Forsling - See Tryamkin.

Rd 6: Kyle Pettit - A strange pick no doubt and the first glaring instance of probably prioritizing "intangibles" over "tangibles".

Rd 7: Mackenze Stewart - See Pettit. Bringing the total up to 2 out of 6 picks.


Now let's look at trades over last year:

Linden Vey - Not a great looking trade to-date and possibly a mis-scout. However Vey had the production at both WHL and AHL levels to suggest he had some decent upside. Again, not sure "character" was an overwhelming attribute here.

Adam Clendening - Similar to Vey. AHL production and waiver wire eligibility seems to have driven this decision.

Andrey Pedan - Seems like a hard working kid but also not without his tools. Seems more like a Vey/Clendening situation where Benning felt there was an arbitrage opportunity due to the Islanders Dman depth.

Sven Baertschi - Probably the best case of Benning prioritizing "skill" over "character" or "hard work", at least if you listen to fellow luddite Brian Burke describe the reasons they cast Baertschi away.


If you want to include UFA prospects, you could argue that Ashton Sautner probably leads with "character" and "hard work" but then he was a free asset, so it's hard to say if that means anything.


Anyway, I'm not saying that Benning DOESN'T give a high degree of value to hard work and character - I think you would find most NHL types do - but I don't see an overwhelming number of Pettit and Mackenze-type decisions in Benning's 12 months here. In fact, those are largely the only ones that fit the bill. And while yes it is definitely a bad strategy to have employed on a 6th and 7th round pick, I would also counsel a little bit of perspective be applied here. I mean Gillis once drafted a 20 year old in the 2nd round, so all GM's are prone to bad bouts of thinking and strategy. Doesn't mean it is a priority or directive based on two late round selections.

You can prioritize more than one thing.

In our drafting/development, I see priorities of :

1) raw tools - size and skating

2) hard work and character


And I don't see prioritizing of :

1) smarts and hockey sense/IQ

2) puck skills and talent

Feel free to disagree.

We'll know more by Saturday, obviously. I very much hope to be eating crow, but don't think I will be.

But if virtually none of the meaningful moves have this mindset at the fore, it just speaks to how little emphasis they're actually putting on character.

They're using 7th Rd picks on 'character', while willing to pay a king's ransom for guys like Kane/Lucic. That tells me all I need to know about how much value they put on these traits.

The Canucks value character, just like every other team in the NHL. But it won't get in the way of acquiring the pieces they feel will be the best NHL players. That's where the story ends.

See comment above. And again, drafting and pro scouting are different entities.

 

[arsmaster*]

So Lack went from 'most likeable character on the team' to 'flaky twitter guy' now? When the hell did this happen? Lack is more known for his character than anything else - Miller is the complete opposite, and has been seen as a brooding, selfish, unlikable goalie most of his career. Sorry, this example doesn't fly.

So now you have 1 example in McKenzie Stewart, with what, 20 personnel moves made by Benning since he was hired? Yeah, I'm sure you can see why this seems more than a little bit ridiculous at this point...

In your opinion, was it dinosaur talk of Gillis to repeat 'character, intelligence and integrity' over and overt again in his first year in Vancouver? The answer to this question will tell you all you need to know on this topic.

Ask rune74 about the twitter flake stuff. It's in nearly every one of his posts on the goaltending situation.

----

Intelligence is a lot different than "tries real hard".

 

[topheavyhookjaw]

You can prioritize more than one thing.

In our drafting/development, I see priorities of :

1) raw tools - size and skating

2) hard work and character


And I don't see prioritizing of :

1) smarts and hockey sense/IQ

2) puck skills and talent

Feel free to disagree.

We'll know more by Saturday, obviously. I very much hope to be eating crow, but don't think I will be.




See comment above. And again, drafting and pro scouting are different entities.

The only moves that stick out as emphasizing that are Baertschi and Forsling (and I think even the Clendenning trade following, who is certainly on the skills/puck movement side not the physical/character/grit/size side).

Not that I love the Vey trade, but he's clearly a puck skill/IQ guy (albeit not an elite one) but he's not a toolsy big project.

But lots of the moves seem to be for what I'd call toolsy players who have the tools but maybe not the toolbox. McCann looks like he paid off that way, Virtanen who knows, Pedan maybe, Tryamkin no.

 

[arsmaster*]

Dorsett is a prime example of this thinking. His example is supposed to help being everyone to his level.

@canafan

Benning didn't call out virtanen. He called out ALL junior players.

Also, listen to him explain I Gillman why he likes McCann. "Honest player". "Meat and potatoes". That speaks to valuing "character" over "the non meaty euro's" (Goldobin, scherbak, and Pastrnak).

 

[arsmaster*]

Also MS. I believe benning is on record saying he would have selected dal colle over virtanen. It was asked last draft iirc.

 

[arsmaster*]

It seems like this gets listed every other page and yet we still have like 2 or 3 posters saying stupid **** like, why would you say Sbisa sucks.

Then the very next post would say something like "can we stop talking about sbisa".

 

[701]

Dorsett is a prime example of this thinking. His example is supposed to help being everyone to his level.

@canafan

Benning didn't call out virtanen. He called out ALL junior players.

Also, listen to him explain I Gillman why he likes McCann. "Honest player". "Meat and potatoes". That speaks to valuing "character" over "the non meaty euro's" (Goldobin, scherbak, and Pastrnak).

To be fair, Benning's biggest point about McCann in that clip seemed to be about tools: "He can really
rip the puck."

 

[banme*]

Hey guys what's going on in the 2015 nhl draft thre-

>SBISAAAAAAA

God damnit.

 

[McHortton]

Can't someone just get a really really good photoshop/editing person to make that picture of the Canucks draft list visible... Really want to know.