2015 Calgary Flames Development Camp - July 6-11 @ Winsport

[Tkachuk Norris]

I see so much "Western Conference Franchise Center" in Jankowski. Not just in the scrimmage but the NCAA tourney games that were on TV... Names like Getzlaf and Kopitar (and Ryan Johansen who's now out East) kept coming to mind.

I've always though Janko had the tools. Now maybe he's got the toolbox.

That said its one scrimmage... Let's not get carried too far away... Yet

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

I've always though Janko had the tools. Now maybe he's got the toolbox.

The Flames organization's comments on him have always been the other way around: "he's got the toolbox, but needs to develop physically".

The kid was 168 lbs when he was drafted.

That's Johnny territory.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

The Flames organization's comments on him have always been the other way around: "he's got the toolbox, but needs to develop physically".

The kid was 168 lbs when he was drafted.

That's Johnny territory.

I was reffering to his size, skill, skating, and hockey sense that made him a first rounder.

By toolbox, I was referring to adding strength, confidence in his ability, and being able to use his tools. He still hasn't shown he can dominate on a night to night basis. And the 'he plays on a defensive team' is garbage. Every coach wants a player to play great defence AND score consistently.

I'm glad Janko is making positive strides but I think it's a little crazy everyone is losing their heads over one prospect camp.

 

[Rangediddy]

The Flames organization's comments on him have always been the other way around: "he's got the toolbox, but needs to develop physically".

The kid was 168 lbs when he was drafted.

That's Johnny territory.

The toolbox is his body. It's where his tools go.

 

[Haatley]

I was reffering to his size, skill, skating, and hockey sense that made him a first rounder.

By toolbox, I was referring to adding strength, confidence in his ability, and being able to use his tools. He still hasn't shown he can dominate on a night to night basis. And the 'he plays on a defensive team' is garbage. Every coach wants a player to play great defence AND score consistently.

I'm glad Janko is making positive strides but I think it's a little crazy everyone is losing their heads over one prospect camp.

It isnt one prospect camp.
if I remember correctly, he was just as good if not better than monahan when he attended his only development camp. People lool at his numbers and college and jump to conclusions... I have watched him regularly since he started at Providence and have always come away impressed.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

I was reffering to his size, skill, skating, and hockey sense that made him a first rounder.

By toolbox, I was referring to adding strength, confidence in his ability, and being able to use his tools.

The toolbox is his body. It's where his tools go.

The term "All the Tools but no toolbox" almost always refers to hockey sense - the ability to put the "tools" (i.e. Vision + Skills + Athleticism) together on the ice. It's a poor descriptor of Jankowski, because the Flames have always insisted that everything else will shine once he adds the strength. Strength is a "tool" that he did not have until just recently. It's not the toolbox, which he's always had which is why he was drafted in the first round.

He still hasn't shown he can dominate on a night to night basis.

You have seen him play on a night-to-night basis? Or are you basing this on stats, which are influenced by linemates, time on ice, which zones you're starting in, power play time, and quality of play in a given conference?

And the 'he plays on a defensive team' is garbage. Every coach wants a player to play great defence AND score consistently.

Andrew Ladd on the 2010 Blackhawks was a 17 goal, 21 assist forward.
Andrew Ladd on the 2011 Thrashers was a 29 goal, 30 assist forward.

Did Andrew Ladd magically change his game between years 6 and 7 of his career?
Or did his role on his team, and the team itself change?

Frolik on the 2009 Panthers was a 21 goal, 24 assist forward
Frolik on the 2013 Blackhawks was a (prorated) 5 goal, 13 assist forward.
Frolik on the 2015 Jets was a 19 goal, 23 assist forward.

Should the Flames be looking at his performance as a Blackhawk and worry that he'll become that player again?

Giordano was a 9 goal, 18 assist in 61 games dman in 2012 under Brent Sutter.
Giordano was an 11 goal, 37 assist in 61 games dman in 2015 under Bob Hartley.

Did Giordano's offensive skill advance from age 28 to 31 to the point where he could double his assists output?

Duncan Keith in 2010 scored 69 points and won the Norris
Duncan Keith in 2015 scored 45 points, was only 7th in Norris Voting, yet won the Conn Smythe.

I can go on and on... Crosby, Seguin, Jordan Staal, Jiri Hudler, Alex Tanguay, Olli Jokinen, Dion Phaneuf...Teamates, Systems, and Utilization matter and the coach is not always "right". If you think stats are produced independent of the team a player plays on, I don't know what to say. Stats are not an indicator of individual performance.

I'm glad Janko is making positive strides but I think it's a little crazy everyone is losing their heads over one prospect camp.

I'm not overreacting just due to prospect camp though prospect camp reaffirmed my view. I said this on Flamesnation back on March 20th:

"Kid's a total stud defensively, and offensively he has the natural talent you see in guys like Getzlaf and Kopitar that can be equal parts mesmerizing and equal parts frustrating because like those players he can be too happy just feeding his teammates when he himself has a very good snap shot.

 

[Lunatik]

I don't agree with you often OKG but that was quite a good post. Especially the talk of systems impacting production. Another good example would have been Bouwmeester under Brent Sutter and then the following year under Bob Hartley.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

I've watched ~ 10 providence games the last two years. Janko was good, not dominant. Gillies on the other hand..

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

I don't agree with you often OKG

...You think Engelland is useful / not carried by Brodie, you base your opinion on Byron based on goal scoring, and think six games was an adequate sample size to send Kulak to the ECHL. You're not gonna agree with me often when your opinions are of that ilk

Especially the talk of systems impacting production. Another good example would have been Bouwmeester under Brent Sutter and then the following year under Bob Hartley.

On the topic of Sutters, there's also Drew Doughty Pre-and-post Darryl. Stats were WAY better before him, but he won two cups as the best player on the team after Sutter came on board.

 

[Lunatik]

...You think Engelland is useful / not carried by Brodie, you base your opinion on Byron based on goal scoring, and think six games was an adequate sample size to send Kulak to the ECHL. You're not gonna agree with me often when your opinions are of that ilk

Let's not derail this thread by you trying to pick an argument.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

No derailment intended, just a friendly jab.

 

[Rangediddy]

No derailment intended, just a friendly jab.

Three friendly jabs

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

Three friendly jabs

This is the prospect camp thread, no stats allowed.

 

[MonyontheMoney]

I think the Kopitar and Getzlaf comparisons are pretty unrealistic.

 

[Anglesmith]

Cheers for the self-moderation, guys.

In other news, Tyson Baillie has been invited to the Prospect Tourney in Penticton. Seems like he's impressed management here.

Da boys are hiking today, so no scrimmage.

 

[Yung Rotini]

Cheers for the self-moderation, guys.

In other news, Tyson Baillie has been invited to the Prospect Tourney in Penticton. Seems like he's impressed management here.

Da boys are hiking today, so no scrimmage.

I'm going to boo him every time he touches the puck

 

[Anglesmith]

I'm going to boo him every time he touches the puck

You cheered for Draisaitl on the Rockets, but you can't cheer for Baillie on the Flames?

 

[Yung Rotini]

You cheered for Draisaitl on the Rockets, but you can't cheer for Baillie on the Flames?

I have my reasons

See: Memorial Cup Final

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

I have my reasons

See: Memorial Cup Final

I have Telus, was unable to "see" it...

 

[Yung Rotini]

I hold grudges easily

If you screw up something big i'm going to hate you forever

 

[SmellOfVictory]

Andrew Ladd on the 2010 Blackhawks was a 17 goal, 21 assist forward.
Andrew Ladd on the 2011 Thrashers was a 29 goal, 30 assist forward.

Did Andrew Ladd magically change his game between years 6 and 7 of his career?
Or did his role on his team, and the team itself change?

Easy answer: he got 3rd line minutes and no PP time with the Hawks, then got 1st line minutes and 1st unit PP time with the Jets. His ES scoring per minute was almost the same (technically a sliver better) with the Hawks.

Frolik on the 2009 Panthers was a 21 goal, 24 assist forward
Frolik on the 2013 Blackhawks was a (prorated) 5 goal, 13 assist forward.
Frolik on the 2015 Jets was a 19 goal, 23 assist forward.

With Frolik, his ES scoring rate also remained almost constant between all teams, except when he had a SH% dip in 11/12 with the Hawks. It was the fact that he was given limited minutes (as with Ladd) on the deeper Hawks team that decreased his raw numbers.

Giordano was a 9 goal, 18 assist in 61 games dman in 2012 under Brent Sutter.
Giordano was an 11 goal, 37 assist in 61 games dman in 2015 under Bob Hartley.

Gio legitimately looks like he improved as a player over that time period, although having a better D partner (Brodie vs. JBo) probably helps him as well. That doesn't discount Hartley's system vs. Sutter's, but there are other factors at work as well.

I'm not saying that player production is independent of team, because it's definitely not, but Jankowski wasn't buried in the bottom six like Ladd or Frolik, and regardless of what system his team played, relative to his other teammates he failed to produce as much as we would expect from an "offensively gifted" player. He's only been top 3 in scoring one of his three years with Providence, and last season as a junior who was a former first round pick, I would personally expect him to have maintained his position in the top 3 of team scoring.

I know "long term project" etc, but I still have higher expectations of him than what he's shown so far, given his apparent physical and mental tools. I'll definitely say I'd be beyond impressed if he became anything beyond a bottom six player, given his results so far (not that it's impossible - I just don't think it's as likely as most people seem to).

 

[Rick M]

I see so much "Western Conference Franchise Center" in Jankowski. Not just in the scrimmage but the NCAA tourney games that were on TV... Names like Getzlaf and Kopitar (and Ryan Johansen who's now out East) kept coming to mind.

He's missing a physical dimension he'd need to compete with the Getzlafs and Kopitars.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

Jankowski wasn't buried in the bottom six like Ladd or Frolik

...But... he was.

Leaman really went Hartley-levels of wild with line combinations, but Jankowski was definitely the third line center with graduating senior Mauermann and graduating junior Acciari ahead of him. Rooney was also eating up a lot of offensive minutes at center from the fourth line.

 

[SmellOfVictory]

...But... he was.

Leaman really went Hartley-levels of wild with line combinations, but Jankowski was definitely the third line center with graduating senior Mauermann and graduating junior Acciari ahead of him. Rooney was also eating up a lot of offensive minutes at center from the fourth line.

I was more focused on the fact that he got actual PP time, but that's true.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

I was more focused on the fact that he got actual PP time, but that's true.

Tyler Seguin got his share of power play time in Boston too... but he didn't live up to the expectations of a 1st liner until he was thrust into a 1st line role in Dallas.