2015-2016 Minnesota Wild Discussion IV

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BagHead

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You have brought up how the window is open for a long time. Where are the forwards in all of this? What about goaltending? Considering there is nothing in Iowa right now to make the jump? Dubnyk is what? 33 years old? We've been down this road before with goaltenders above 30 who start having issues mid contract. Backstrom, Fernandez, Harding...


You are overvaluing talent like crazy. Where do you see Granlund, Zucker, Nino and Coyle as being at worst 2nd line players? Outside of Coyle none of them have done anything this year to warrant that type of assessment.


No it is not. And if you think those questions are based on the last 5 weeks I don't know what team you've been watching the last 5 years...but it isn't the same one I've been watching. He is under the microscope because he has now fired two head coaches he hand-picked. His prospects are doing absolutely squat that he has drafted short of Haula and the argument for Brodin can be made. He's squandered the draft picks for aging veterans who do nothing on the team. And frankly, it is time he got that microscope treatment. And because this post isn't long enough :biglaugh:


100% want to see them in the playoffs this year.

I agree with you on most points, especially the bolded one, but there are a few things I just can't get behind. Because your post was as long as it was, I decided to just keep the parts I mean to address.

Dubnyk is not 33 years old, he is 29. That may only be 4 years of difference, but his remaining contract is 5 years, so there's a big difference between it ending when he's 35 and it ending when he's 39.

I'm also not sure I disagree with his assessment of our talent.
Granlund is a center who puts up about 40 points per year, which is 2nd line center territory. The problem with him is that we are trying to force him to be a 1st line center, and he just isn't one.
Zucker is a 20-30 goal scorer (or at least was last year, and looks like he should be pretty regularly), which is a great fit for most 2nd lines.
Nino certainly, like Zucker, looks like he's regressed lately. But the whole team has. He has shown that he has 25 goals per season in him, and I don't think he's quite hit his ceiling yet. So, big body, can score 20+ per season, fast and hits. Yeah, that's a 2nd liner.
And Coyle... well, he looks like he's finally turning into a man out there, instead of the boy who defers, and is definitely a 2nd line talent.

I agree that Fletcher should be under the microscope, because it's his (often heartless) team that he's built, and some of his prospects haven't lived up to expectations, though thinking Granlund was a surefire 1st line center drafted at 9th overall was a bit optimistic in hindsight. Still, I'm not sure I agree with the two prospects you listed as living up to expectations.
First of all, Haula was from his first draft that was widely known to have been a Tommy Thompson draft, not a Chuck Fletcher draft. So while Haula has exceeded expectations for a 7th rounder, he isn't Fletcher's success to claim.
Brodin has not lived up to expectations. Everyone knew he'd be a very good defenseman defensively, but he was expected to have at least some offense in his game. If he didn't have offensive upside, he wouldn't have gone in the top 10.
Beyond that, I would say that Dumba is coming along nicely. Brent Burns looked like a boy lost defensively in his first couple of NHL seasons, too, but is at least now responsible enough that he gets 1st pairing ice time. Dumba has that same type of potential, and is getting better.
As for the rest of them, we've already talked about the young guys currently on the team, and most of the rest are late round talents (like Graovac and perhaps Kaprizov) and recent picks whom we don't know where they'll end up when they're done developing.

Like I said, I agree with most of your points, but these were some I wanted to get off my chest that I didn't. Thanks for your post, whether I agree with all of it or not.
 

Soldier13Fox

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For f***s sake...the Vanek hate and scapegoating here is ridiculous....dead weight, buy-out candidate, yada yada...
He leads this group of offensive wizards in P/60 in 5 vs 5 situations AND in 5 vs 4 situations.
That is playing good chunks of time playing with Haula, Fontaine, Stoll and the like...
Source: http://www.behindthenet.ca/

Agreed . . . like it was said countless times by countless people . . . everyone knew what we were getting in Vanek. You're not going to see a ferocious backcheck, you may see some terrible penalties, you may not agree with all of the plays he tries to force . . . but that's his game. I, for one, have come around and like him on the team. That's not to say he's not frustrating as **** to watch sometimes.
 

Saga of the Elk

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Zucker is a 20-30 goal scorer (or at least was last year, and looks like he should be pretty regularly), which is a great fit for most 2nd lines.

He had 21 goals last season shooting almost 17%. He is a third-liner on most teams.
 

BigT2002

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That's good drafting to be honest. If there is a problem I'd say it's more with developing.

It isn't bad drafting. But keep in mind that goes back since the dawn of the franchise and what remains on this team as well. So for 16 years of existence, only 2 players remain from DR's regime as GM (Koivu and Scandella). The rest were picked by Fletcher and many remain to pan out in the way we, as fans, are hoping. Remember, there are 7 rounds of drafting. That means Fletcher in 5 years had 35 picks. How many were traded away already?

And it still doesn't hit the issue: the core of this team was not picked by this team. They were acquired through various means in order to piece together a team.
 

BigT2002

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I agree with you on most points, especially the bolded one, but there are a few things I just can't get behind. Because your post was as long as it was, I decided to just keep the parts I mean to address.

Dubnyk is not 33 years old, he is 29. That may only be 4 years of difference, but his remaining contract is 5 years, so there's a big difference between it ending when he's 35 and it ending when he's 39.

I'm also not sure I disagree with his assessment of our talent.
Granlund is a center who puts up about 40 points per year, which is 2nd line center territory. The problem with him is that we are trying to force him to be a 1st line center, and he just isn't one.
Zucker is a 20-30 goal scorer (or at least was last year, and looks like he should be pretty regularly), which is a great fit for most 2nd lines.
Nino certainly, like Zucker, looks like he's regressed lately. But the whole team has. He has shown that he has 25 goals per season in him, and I don't think he's quite hit his ceiling yet. So, big body, can score 20+ per season, fast and hits. Yeah, that's a 2nd liner.
And Coyle... well, he looks like he's finally turning into a man out there, instead of the boy who defers, and is definitely a 2nd line talent.

I agree that Fletcher should be under the microscope, because it's his (often heartless) team that he's built, and some of his prospects haven't lived up to expectations, though thinking Granlund was a surefire 1st line center drafted at 9th overall was a bit optimistic in hindsight. Still, I'm not sure I agree with the two prospects you listed as living up to expectations.
First of all, Haula was from his first draft that was widely known to have been a Tommy Thompson draft, not a Chuck Fletcher draft. So while Haula has exceeded expectations for a 7th rounder, he isn't Fletcher's success to claim.
Brodin has not lived up to expectations. Everyone knew he'd be a very good defenseman defensively, but he was expected to have at least some offense in his game. If he didn't have offensive upside, he wouldn't have gone in the top 10.
Beyond that, I would say that Dumba is coming along nicely. Brent Burns looked like a boy lost defensively in his first couple of NHL seasons, too, but is at least now responsible enough that he gets 1st pairing ice time. Dumba has that same type of potential, and is getting better.
As for the rest of them, we've already talked about the young guys currently on the team, and most of the rest are late round talents (like Graovac and perhaps Kaprizov) and recent picks whom we don't know where they'll end up when they're done developing.

Like I said, I agree with most of your points, but these were some I wanted to get off my chest that I didn't. Thanks for your post, whether I agree with all of it or not.

I know many of us have different ways of assessing the talent pool and most of us won't back away from that. But that is what makes it fun to talk about it and get others viewpoints on the matter as well. I don't think anyone on here has been overly pessimistic that the team is in shambles and you should trade away everything short of Coyle, Spurgeon and Scandella basically. However, something does need to change. We hold out hope that players like Graovac or Eriksson Ek or Tuch are going to come in here and right the ship....and it is just hard for me to accept that knowing the track record.

Hell if anything, I should be ANTI tanking :laugh:
 

Saga of the Elk

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It isn't bad drafting. But keep in mind that goes back since the dawn of the franchise and what remains on this team as well. So for 16 years of existence, only 2 players remain from DR's regime as GM (Koivu and Scandella). The rest were picked by Fletcher and many remain to pan out in the way we, as fans, are hoping. Remember, there are 7 rounds of drafting. That means Fletcher in 5 years had 35 picks. How many were traded away already?

And it still doesn't hit the issue: the core of this team was not picked by this team. They were acquired through various means in order to piece together a team.

Backstrom is still on the team as well.
 

BagHead

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He had 21 goals last season shooting almost 17%. He is a third-liner on most teams.

Mmmm, yeah alright, fair enough. I'd forgotten that his shooting percentage was unsustainabley high. Still, with his shot and speed, I think his shooting percentage should be relatively high compared to other plays, just not THAT high. I still think he's got 30 goal season potential in him, and that's a level I'd be disappointed if he doesn't reach. Keep in mind, this is only his second full season in the NHL, though he has had some particularly tall cups of coffee before last season.

Even still, I'd say he's a 2nd - 3rd line tweener at this current moment.
 

gwh

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He had 21 goals last season shooting almost 17%. He is a third-liner on most teams.

Que?

21 goals would have been

5th in Blues.
3rd in Dallas
3rd in Islanders
4th in Flames.

(Just some random teams.)

20 goals = top6
 

Saga of the Elk

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Normalize the shooting % and the games played, and you still come up with ~25 goals last year.

I guess you could do that for most players, but the games are played. Zucker seems to get hurt a lot and plays a style where that is a risk. I don't think he's likely to shoot 16-17% throughout his career. He generates shots at a decent rate, but I don't see him as a 25 goal guy at all. I tend to think he's more a drag on Koivu and Nino but he's positive corsi (unlike Coyle).

Mostly curious as to what his contract will be. He has a higher ppg average than Nino (of course his Islanders lost season might be disregarded), but I would hope to sign Zucker for less. He's not out of place on the second-line but I think a team that aspires for greatness would have him on the third.
 

Nharris31

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He had 21 goals last season shooting almost 17%. He is a third-liner on most teams.

Jason Zucker is 11th in the league in even strength scoring since 2014.

@SteveBurcth So - on the topic of Minnesota - as brought up by @travisyost and @DimFilipovic - Zucker is 2nd on the team in 5v5 G60, and Vanek is 4th...
@SteveBurtch also Zucker leads the team in personal scoring chances on the year - I don't see how benching him makes much sense... or helps them score.


@DTMAboutHeart https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CbWitSgWIAA-AIg.png Their are lots of third liners on that List :sarcasm:
 

Saga of the Elk

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Jason Zucker is 11th in the league in even strength scoring since 2014.

@SteveBurcth So - on the topic of Minnesota - as brought up by @travisyost and @DimFilipovic - Zucker is 2nd on the team in 5v5 G60, and Vanek is 4th...
@SteveBurtch also Zucker leads the team in personal scoring chances on the year - I don't see how benching him makes much sense... or helps them score.


@DTMAboutHeart https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CbWitSgWIAA-AIg.png Their are lots of third liners on that List :sarcasm:

That is interesting...I wouldn't say he's at the same level as most of that list, would you? I'm asking in terms of comparisons: do you think Zucker should make more than Coyle? He's an RFA, but do you think his agent brings that list in to CF and compares him to Max Pacioretty?
 

Nharris31

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That is interesting...I wouldn't say he's at the same level as most of that list, would you? I'm asking in terms of comparisons: do you think Zucker should make more than Coyle? He's an RFA, but do you think his agent brings that list in to CF and compares him to Max Pacioretty?

I don't know what his agent will do. If he is smart he probably will bring up his possession stats. Also one has better track record at scoring goals than other and it's not Coyle. If anything the wild will probably luck out and end up paying him less and he will rebound next year.
 

DANOZ28

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im sure we all cherrypick stats to prove our points , im just happy when people add stats instead of just (biased) opinions. i wish we had 3 zuckers on this team and im hoping someday we add yakupov who is the closest player to zucker i see. match made in heaven imo.
 

SomethingGeneric

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http://m.startribune.com/wild-sets-sights-on-lightning-s-drouin/365084391/

Found this article from a month ago about. What would be people's feelings on trading Dumba for Droiun? Personally, I would pull the trigger.

I really don't want to trade Dumba. Look at how long it took Scandella to develop. Defense always peaks later, so the flashes of brilliance we see from Dumba is a long way from what he could be in a few years once he has gained more experience and playing time. His ceiling is so high I don't see why we wouldn't at least see what he can do before we make a decision. Worse case scenario he doesn't develop fully and he is still a useful 3rd pairing player who can play top 4 in a pinch but should not be there regularly. If we are looking to trade for Drouin I would like to see them try to land him with someone like Olofsson or Belpedio. It would require an add on but probably not much more than a second and/or a roster player (imo Haula + second or someone like zucker would probably make Tampa pull the trigger). Haula would fill a need if Stamkos were to leave and a second is pretty valuable. And for some reason I like to think Zucker would fit in well in Tampa.
 

Digitalbooya

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I really don't want to trade Dumba. Look at how long it took Scandella to develop. Defense always peaks later, so the flashes of brilliance we see from Dumba is a long way from what he could be in a few years once he has gained more experience and playing time. His ceiling is so high I don't see why we wouldn't at least see what he can do before we make a decision. Worse case scenario he doesn't develop fully and he is still a useful 3rd pairing player who can play top 4 in a pinch but should not be there regularly. If we are looking to trade for Drouin I would like to see them try to land him with someone like Olofsson or Belpedio. It would require an add on but probably not much more than a second and/or a roster player (imo Haula + second or someone like zucker would probably make Tampa pull the trigger). Haula would fill a need if Stamkos were to leave and a second is pretty valuable. And for some reason I like to think Zucker would fit in well in Tampa.

:(

I'm not sure we should really go after Drouin. He's not better than Parise or Zucker or Nino. Only way I see us acquiring him is using prospects and he needs to go to the AHL and work on playing C or RW.
 
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