Frank Booth
Registered User
Blaming Chynoweth for the issues of this franchise at the AHL level is like blaming Ronald McDonald when you get a bad Big Mac.
2015-16 San Antonio Rampage (AHL) and Ft Wayne Komets (ECHL) Part II
- Thread starter tigervixxxen
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cgf
FireBednarsSuccessor
Street & Agozzino on the first line is a nice first step. Hopefully Beck proves to be another one in top 6 role, shame (though expected) that Noreau's going back to europe, but I guess we'll see if they can find some more guys of that caliber to bring in with all of the contracts coming off the books this summer.
RockLobster
King in the North
I don't believe I've seen anyone say he's solely to blame, but rather is a part of the problem, as opposed to part of the solution.
Don't forget, we also saw what he was doing for 3 years in Lake Erie. Truth be told it's definitely a combination of Organizational Philosophy (to date) and Chynoweth's coaching abilities. The hope, with this move, is that the Avs have been taking a HARD look at this side of things (development, etc.) and are moving towards making a bigger/better investment.
We'll have to see how things play out.
- Feb 24, 2012
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They did, but the team they had in games 20-60 should have been much better than it was. An AHL team with Bigras, Zadorov, Noreau, and Siemens on defense should have been a very solid team no matter who they had up front (which was also decent by AHL standards until injuries really crippled them at center).
I worry about the Gormley types for the message they are sending the kids that are still learning. Gormley was better than Gervais, but I'd rather have Gervais in the locker room than Gormley even at the expense of on-ice performance.
The Avs will need to add some vets of the Street/Bourque/Miele level... I think they should also add more of the Beck/Akeson/Chaput/Campbell/Landry level too.
One thing to remember with the AHL club, last season was the first year that any of the Sakic/Roy picks really spent any time in the AHL. It was the first year 'their' guys were exposed to the coaching down there. They obviously didn't like what they saw.
Bender
Registered User
- Sep 25, 2002
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It took me about 5 games of watching the Monsters at the start of the lockout season to figure out that this guy wasn't going to be a good coach. I could dig up the posts, it was pretty obvious to myself and a few others around here.
Was he the only reason things are as bad as they are in the AHL? Hardly. But we certainly need to get someone decent in there as a starting point.
Chynoweth had a poor coaching record throughout his junior career and in the pros. There were no indications that this guy was going to do anything other than the piss-poor record he ended up having after 4 years.
At some point, you gotta give yourself a chance. To me, everything that's wrong with the AHL club seems budget related and that really, REALLY annoys me. From the fact that they only have 1 assistant coach to guys like David Oliver taking on dual roles...to the multitude of try-out players they seem to sign every year to fill the roster....it just all seems like "we want to have a good farm team but we don't want to spend a dime beyond the minimum possible amount" in order to do so. C'mon now...that's so weak. If you're a PROFESSIONAL ORGANIZATION, it means the Avs, it means the Monsters/Rampage...hell, it even means the Rockets.
I'm super glad chynoweth is gone but nothing's going to change unless they change the way they think on what's important for the farm club. They aren't likely going to bring in a very good, up and coming young coach from the junior ranks...if they offer him a weak contract by AHL coaching standards (whatever those may be). It's the whole organizational thinking that has to change and the importance put on having the right resources in place to give our young kids a chance to be as good as they are supposed to be.
tigervixxxen
Optimism=Delusional
Obviously you haven't read any of my posts stating the same but you already know Lake Erie is better off without us, no need to stop by and gloat.
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Didn't Roy or Sakic say they wanted to focus more on development towards the end of the season?
- Dec 4, 2002
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They just tossed the bulk of their 2014 draft for 20 games of Boedker less than 2 months ago.
They are taking some steps towards doing that, some big steps away from doing that also.
Avs44
Registered User
- May 16, 2011
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Shhhh, some people are going to chew you up for this, and TV does not need to be reminded.
tigervixxxen
Optimism=Delusional
Avs44
Registered User
- May 16, 2011
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Because it seems they had already given up on them, which is inherently stupid in of itself. Not going to go into it now, but incredibly worrying less than two years removed they decided they didn't even want their own first round pick anymore, let alone Wood.
tigervixxxen
Optimism=Delusional
Completely agree. I know nobody wants to beat the horse again, it is what it is. But its going to bother me for a long, long time.
Foppa2118
Registered User
- Oct 3, 2003
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They weren't throwing away a 1st rounder though, they were trading it for a 2nd rounder.
If he's picked again in the early 2nd that's one thing, but if he slips into the 3rd or later which is possible, than 29 other scouting staffs would have advised doing the same.
Why get worked up about something that was never going to happen in Avs land. Bleackley and Wood were never going to get ELCs. And honestly the only guy that should get an ELC from the putrid 2014 draft class orchestrated by the turd known as Rick Pracey, already got his ELC in Nantel.
The whole 2014 draft was complete garbage. Bleackley was a horrendous first round pick especially considering the guys that were picked directly after him, and it just got worse from there. This draft really showed exactly why Pracey got shown the door. The guy can't evaluate talent, outside of the top few guys in each draft.
Unfortunately for this organization we threw up a big stinker in 2014. I'll honestly be shocked if any of the guys we drafted ever make an impact at the NHL level. Bleackley will be lucky to become a 4th line center, and Wood was one of the most over-rated guys around Avs land, the guy can't skate worth a damn. If you can't skate well you can't play at the NHL level, I don't care how hard you shoot the puck.
You look at the 2015 draft and it's much better now that Pracey's gone. Every single guy we drafted last year minus our 7th round pick (Olhaver) had productive years. Rantanen was great, Greer was solid once he bailed on the NCAA where he was being mis-used, Meloche was a stud, Beaudin had a huge year in the Q, Mironov was solid in an elite men's league, and Boikov had a career year numbers wise.
Now that we had a promising draft in 2015 we have to build on that this year. It's going to take some time to undo the trash that was Rick Pracey. Moving two guys from one of his failed drafts, is not really much skin off my back. It's just unfortunate we let a clown run the show, which led to picking guys like Bleackley in the first round. It would pain me much more if we were trading guys that actually had some value, but as of now both guys that were traded for a "rental" are long shots at best to even become NHLers and their presence in the AHL wouldn't have meant much.
Cousin Eddie
You Serious Clark?
- Nov 3, 2006
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I don't think Groulx is an option. If he wants to coach pro he will get an opportunity in the NHL right away. Probably as an assistant at first but I don't think we'll see him in the AHL.
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Ah, that doesn't bother me so much. That trade was beyond stupid and I said so at the time. They can chew away.
TV and I are of the same mind in this respect, I'm pretty sure. We were both duped by Sakic's/Roy's "building up the system like Tampa Bay"(sic) line of BS. And I simply don't get how Sakic especially gets no grief for that 2014 draft, and Pracey seems to get 100% of it. Sakic's the damn GM.
In any case, my original response was to point out that Sakic is doing things (like his ridiculous deadline deal) that are not positively affecting the San Antonio roster over time.
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- Feb 24, 2012
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Wood is the only player they tossed that was in the plans. They paid a fair price for Boedker and we don't know if it was for 20 games at this point (entirely possible).
Bleacks can be replaced in the system with a smart signing or two this summer.
tigervixxxen
Optimism=Delusional
Nobody wants me to get into it but the bottom line is this especially isn't true. You don't give a damn about the AHL team winning or losing so how can you say this? People can talk to me and justify by saying how worthless Bleackley is and while it's true the org might have decided that, I believe with every fiber of my being that this is not true and was not the right decision. I know what Ive seen in his game, I know the state the AHL team is in and will be in and if they could have used a player like him. I don't like what it says about their organizational and development philosophies, how they evaluate prospects. You don't decide 18 months after a draft a first round pick is worthless, period. It's extremely short sighted, it's a mistake. It goes beyond just using an asset in a trade, many people see that side of it, which is fine they can evaluate it how they want through the lense of their priorities but as someone who cares about the system and the pipeline and results at every level it's wrong. It's funny to me that so many people think getting rid of Pracey just eradicated the drafting problem, like he's the only guy who has any input. The whole scouting staff is still there, the WHL guy who probably saw Bleackley more the last few years than his own children is still there, using the same criteria he used to evaluate him on subsequent drafts. If anyone thinks the pick itself was the problem, this should be alarming to you. What's alarming to me is an organization with a depth and talent problem just so casually throws away and writes off young assets, like they've earned any sort of right to be so arrogant about it. If it's any org that needs to cultivate anything they can get their hands on its this one.
Whatever random European or AHL vet they find, I don't think so.
- Feb 24, 2012
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Ah, that doesn't bother me so much. That trade was beyond stupid and I said so at the time. They can chew away.
TV and I are of the same mind in this respect, I'm pretty sure. We were both duped by Sakic's/Roy's "building up the system like Tampa Bay"(sic) line of BS. And I simply don't get how Sakic especially gets no grief for that 2014 draft, and Pracey seems to get 100% of it. Sakic's the damn GM.
In any case, my original response was to point out that Sakic is doing things (like his ridiculous deadline deal) that are not positively affecting the San Antonio roster over time.
Pracey gets the majority of the blame (Sakic and Roy do get some) because he is responsible for the draft. That is how NHL organizations work. The Avs asked him to pick against his preference and he couldn't do that well. Sakic wasn't happy with the direction of the drafting, so he made a change. I believe this is in part to the Bleackley pick. Pracey stuck his neck out for the kid (I don't think Sakic wanted him) and Bleackley fell on his face right away and soured the relationship.
The roster the Rampage had 10 games into the season was the most talented AHL team the Avs organization has had for a long time. It just didn't work for a variety of reasons. Rantanen, Bigras, and Zadorov were the 3 most talented players the AHL club has had since Barrie. I know people want to pile on, but the evidence is there that they are building it up. It is just slower than people want.
tigervixxxen
Optimism=Delusional
That's fast tracked top end talent, that's great for the Avs but it's not great for the system. Compher is expected to be the same. In over a year since the Geertsen signing they've made one system signing (Nantel) and then deciding to basically get rid of the rest of the incoming class ready for pro and thus far have not made a single replacement signing or move. Now I know they will fill out the roster one way or another but that doesn't exactly inspire confidence that it's going to be equal much less an upgrade. We all like the 2015 draft, it will be nice when they can contribute but we aren't even to that point yet. A lot can change in a year, they could be used at next year's deadline or in these big multiple for 1 deals that people want us to make. They tried to overhaul it two years ago getting in some European signings and now looks like most won't be back, it's back a couple steps with really no incoming draft class turning pro this year. I know they say they are trying to make steps to improve and have to start somewhere but they are undoing a lot of their own work too. I'm not worried they can move through the top end guys they believe in, it's the ability to build a true systematic pipeline that leaves me concerned.
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I'm not even talking about AHL vets or Euros... players like Stephen Harper who can step right into a middle 6 AHL center role and has bottom 6 potential. Or Greg Betzold, Michael Joly, or Parker Bowles. There are options to get a couple players like that, that have similar upside. Bleacks is a better prospect than any of them, but the difference isn't all that great.
And it is a valid concern, but there have been steps in the right direction... they are just not coming as fast as people like. With the old Avs... Z, Bigras, nor Rantanen would have touched AHL ice and would have been thrown to the wolves. All 3 played a majority of their time down in the AHL. Even if Compher gets fast tracked (that is okay and deserved on his end), that doesn't mean they don't care about the AHL club... it means they care about the NHL first. Building a pipeline also means making the NHL roster better. Once the NHL roster has true depth, then the AHL roster will gain depth. The Avs are not going to believe in making the AHL roster better before the NHL roster... you can disagree with that philosophy, but that isn't how this organization is going to operate (nor 25+ other NHL organizations). Once the NHL roster has a solid top 9/top 4, then the transitions that were immediate before, 1 year now, will start becoming 2 years and then maybe 3.
Still if there is a player that is going to be a top 6/top 4 sort... they are not going to stick in the AHL long-term. That just doesn't happen most anywhere. Top end talent always gets expedited and rarely spends more than a season or two in the AHL.
I see the big praise for Tampa's system (and for good reason) and people clamoring to be like them... look at how much AHL time their players spent... Johnson - 2 seasons, Kucherov - 17 games, Palat - 2 seasons, Killorn - half season, Namestnikov - 2.5 seasons, Brown - little over 1 season, Sustr - 20 games, Paquette - 1 season. They don't hold their prospects in the AHL nearly as long as people think... mostly less than 2 seasons.
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