2014 Free Agency drags on ...

[dimi78]

Yep.

As is making sure we don't unnecessarily overwhelm our developing and highly talented youngsters.

RIelly and Gardiner have ONLY a combined 240 NHL games experience. Does letting them take over the defense really sound like that smart of an idea?

You don't trade a player because he MIGHT become expendable, you trade him when he is. LA didn't trade Jack Johnson until Slava Voynov proved he could run a PP unit. Richards/Carter weren't traded UNTIL Giroux made it obvious he was ready for more time.

Trading Phaneuf before the Gardiner/Rielly are truly ready is a great way to continue prolonging the rebuild. I honestly can't believe we are even having this discussion. You'd think Leaf fans would have learned by now and might look at the absolute awful time the Oilers keep having by throwing high end draft players into the thick of things before they are ready.

I'm not of the proponent to sell off Phanuef at all, anybody who thinks the Leafs are a better team without him as appose to with him really don't know what they're talking about but this assertion that if Dion were to be traded would hinder the two young guys on D I don't believe for 1 second.

You know what hinders these 2 young guys from being there best? Carlyle micromanaged bench, rope & dope spend 70% of the game in the defensive zone, shackles on PMD hockey. That's not an environment for any D men to be successful let alone 2 kids

You should be more concerned with Carlyle still being the head coach about the growth and development of these 2 than if the Leafs were to trade Phanuef or not.

Giving TOI to youngsters, staying patient with them and believing in them is really the only way to develop young guys because it's experience with the opportunity to learn from said experience is how young guys learn. The way you insulate them is by being a competitive team that gives as much as it takes. You know playing 200 feet hockey and not spending 70% of the game in the defensive zone in survival mode.

 

[Teeder9]

I'm not of the proponent to sell off Phanuef at all, anybody who thinks the Leafs are a better team without him as appose to with him really don't know what they're talking about but this assertion that if Dion were to be traded would hinder the two young guys on D I don't believe for 1 second.

You know what hinders these 2 young guys from being there best? Carlyle micromanaged bench, rope & dope spend 70% of the game in the defensive zone, shackles on PMD hockey. That's not an environment for any D men to be successful let alone 2 kids

You should be more concerned with Carlyle still being the head coach about the growth and development of these 2 than if the Leafs were to trade Phanuef or not.

Giving TOI to youngsters, staying patient with them and believing in them is really the only way to develop young guys because it's experience with the opportunity to learn from said experience is how young guys learn. The way you insulate them is by being a competitive team that gives as much as it takes. You know playing 200 feet hockey and not spending 70% of the game in the defensive zone in survival mode.

I agree with your first statement. We wouldn't be better without Phaneuf. I don't agree with your second. Wookie is right to say that leaving this team to Gardiner and Rielly is not a smart move. It might work out and no one can truly say it wouldn't. But it's a chance you really don't want to take because it isn't worth it to try. Absolutely nothing would be gained.

 

[Faltorvo]

Just a quick question...

I was poking around the Leafs upcoming TV Schedule; http://www.nhl.com/ice/schedulebyseason.htm?team=TOR

and under networks, I'm seeing a lot of 'TVA Network'...what is that? I'm also seeing a lot of blank spaces, will those be broadcast at all? Or maybe it means it's undecided? It seems to me a good half of the season will either not be broadcast or on a channel I don't think I have...

maybe all those games will be slotted onto leafs tv, I don't see a single listing yet you that channel

 

[Ricky Bobby]

I don't really disagree with what you are saying and I have already stated that those who think a big return for Dion is what we will get, will likely be disappointed.

You seem to be forgetting I said Gardiner/Rielly, not just Rielly. Your whole focus is on Rielly. I would expect Gardiner to take a bigger role than Rielly should at this point. Gardiner at his age and experience, should be ready to show if he has it or not, like Voynov etc. I was more thinking Rielly as second pair duites and PP time.
Yes Doughty was a 2nd overall and I agree Doughty is an elite D, but draft position has little to do with it.

The other examples...Rielly 5th, Hamilton 9th, Subban 43rd, Voynov 32nd, Mcdonaugh 12th and Staal 12th. Rielly is a higher draft pick than everyone else.

The other part is with the type of trades I would want for Dion, is about getting more quality prospects and opening up cap room. We could add a McBain, Murray etc cheap if needed to play third pair with Franson with the new cap space. If Rielly looks overwhelmed as a second pair this season, move him down and move Franson/McBain back up to 2nd pair. There are options.

Gardiner was already averaging 21 minutes a night last season so I'm not sure how many more minutes you can expect to get out of him.

In the case of Doughty draft position does mean something because he lived up or even exceeded it. The guy was touted as a potential next great Dman and has shown from Day 1 after being drafted that he could via for the Norris trophy for the next two decades.

Riely hasn't shown anywhere near what Doughty has and is more in the category of other players you mentioned who the trend seems to be making an impact at closer to 22 then 20.

Even if Gardiner developed into a 25 minute a night Dman this season he would need a running mate as a top pairing option which Rielly isn't ready for at this point.

I'm not adamantly opposed to trading Phaneuf but I also don't see why we would trade him now of all times. Very few teams could fit him into their budgets which means less trading partners which would mean less of a bidding war.

If you trade Phaneuf now where the heck do we need the cap dollars for this season?

The discussion of trading Phaneuf shouldn't happen till the deadline if it doesn't look like we'll be a playoff team or next draft when plenty of teams can bid on him.

 

[RLF]

Gardiner was already averaging 21 minutes a night last season so I'm not sure how many more minutes you can expect to get out of him.

In the case of Doughty draft position does mean something because he lived up or even exceeded it. The guy was touted as a potential next great Dman and has shown from Day 1 after being drafted that he could via for the Norris trophy for the next two decades.

Riely hasn't shown anywhere near what Doughty has and is more in the category of other players you mentioned who the trend seems to be making an impact at closer to 22 then 20.

Even if Gardiner developed into a 25 minute a night Dman this season he would need a running mate as a top pairing option which Rielly isn't ready for at this point.

I'm not adamantly opposed to trading Phaneuf but I also don't see why we would trade him now of all times. Very few teams could fit him into their budgets which means less trading partners which would mean less of a bidding war.

If you trade Phaneuf now where the heck do we need the cap dollars for this season?

The discussion of trading Phaneuf shouldn't happen till the deadline if it doesn't look like we'll be a playoff team or next draft when plenty of teams can bid on him.

I don't think we see things that differently. If the minutes are spread out more between pairings, Gardiner would not have to do many more minutes, but the minutes would be tougher minutes. Same with Rielly. I don't see how Doughty's draft position only matters because he lived up to expectations. What if he didn't? Then it doesn't matter? Plus, the others exceeded theirs in most cases...why can't Rielly? It has been speculated that Rielly may exceed both Murray and Reinhart selected before him.
I'm not saying we HAVE to trade Dion. What I said was that management has to make a decision on if the are going with the youth and if Dion fits in as a partner with one of them. If not, it is better to move Dion while his value is still good. The one thing everyone on the "don't move Dion now" side keeps ignoring is the value aspect. I will say this again. The Leafs have missed the playoffs every year but one Dion has been here. His playoffs were bad, last season he was bad during the playoff run, and the same during the previous playoff run that we folded in.
Mostly because I think Dion tries to do too much, which he isn't capable of doing. If we wait til the trade deadline because we are out of a playoff position again, or off-season where we missed the playoffs again. If Dion was not good...what will the value be for a 30 year old d-man with 6 years left at $7mil a season be? Not as much as today, that is for sure. For $7mil, teams are looking for a steadying vet force on the blueline who excels under pressure...not a guy who has a history of folding under pressure. He may become almost immovable unless we keep a portion of contract or take on a contract we don't want. That's a risk many seem ok with taking. Not sure I am.
I honestly don't think we will ruin Gardiner and Rielly if Dion is gone and we pair them with solid vets until they are ready to lead the pairing themselves. Just for example,( not saying it would or should happen), you could get Larsson, Salvador and Matteau from NJ for Dion. Short term pain for long term gain...(possibly), but no one knows if we would be ok without Dion because his biggest asset is he is sooo durable. I do know he is one of oldest players and we have had little success with him, not saying his fault, but maybe time for a change.

 

[Lifeisnice]

Just because of boredom, I will raise an idea I've liked all summer.

To Toronto:
Paul Martin

To Pitt
Lupul
Mid level Forward prospect (Leivo, Ashton, etc...)

According to the trade board, Pitt is looking to move Martin because he has value and they want to open up room for younger guys. This trade proposal was offered by a Pitt fan on the main trade board.

I think this would be a great trade for the leafs. Leafs pick up a great top 4 DFD with good speed and positioning in Martin. While we have good defensive prospects (Gardiner, Reilly, Percy, Finn, Valiev) we don't have a type of guy like Martin at his pedigree. Paired with Phaneuf, we would have one of the top shutdown pairings in the league.
Cap is pretty much a wash Martin - 5m; Lupul - 5.25m. Both guys have fought injuries last year

Martin - Phaneuf
Gardiner - Robidas
Reilly - Polak

Franson gets dealt for whatever, as we run with our new core.

Cons: Martin is 33, and will need a new contract starting next season. I believe we could resign him during the season for somewhere between 4-6m

The loss of lupul will make some posters freak out, but the leafs weakness is the Defense. Bernier gives us a reliable option in net, and I have never seen the leafs with so much forward depth. Guys like Holland and Frattin look to be starting the season in the minors or the press box, not to mention any Marlies that could jump such as Bodie, Leivo, Ashton, Carrick etc...

JVR - Bozac - Kessel
Booth - Kadri - Santorelli
Komorov - Kontiola - Clarkson
Winnik - Holland - Frattin
Bodie

 

[PugFugly]

maybe all those games will be slotted onto leafs tv, I don't see a single listing yet you that channel

I noticed the same thing. TVA is a French channel in Quebec.

My guess is that those are only the national broadcasts. I noticed TSN also wasn't listed but they still have the rights to some Leaf games.

 

[notdoneyet]

I think the whole reason we didnt sign another
dman for Dion is Nonihan really believe that
Granberg is ready for full time duty. I truly believe
we are all going to be very surprised by his skill
level and he will make Franson expendable very quickly.

 

[Lifeisnice]

I think the whole reason we didnt sign another
dman for Dion is Nonihan really believe that
Granberg is ready for full time duty. I truly believe
we are all going to be very surprised by his skill
level and he will make Franson expendable very quickly.

Then why sign Franson at all? And unless Granberg will do it, I still don't see how it affects Dion's pairing.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

I don't think we see things that differently. If the minutes are spread out more between pairings, Gardiner would not have to do many more minutes, but the minutes would be tougher minutes. Same with Rielly. I don't see how Doughty's draft position only matters because he lived up to expectations. What if he didn't? Then it doesn't matter? Plus, the others exceeded theirs in most cases...why can't Rielly? It has been speculated that Rielly may exceed both Murray and Reinhart selected before him.
I'm not saying we HAVE to trade Dion. What I said was that management has to make a decision on if the are going with the youth and if Dion fits in as a partner with one of them. If not, it is better to move Dion while his value is still good. The one thing everyone on the "don't move Dion now" side keeps ignoring is the value aspect. I will say this again. The Leafs have missed the playoffs every year but one Dion has been here. His playoffs were bad, last season he was bad during the playoff run, and the same during the previous playoff run that we folded in.
Mostly because I think Dion tries to do too much, which he isn't capable of doing. If we wait til the trade deadline because we are out of a playoff position again, or off-season where we missed the playoffs again. If Dion was not good...what will the value be for a 30 year old d-man with 6 years left at $7mil a season be? Not as much as today, that is for sure. For $7mil, teams are looking for a steadying vet force on the blueline who excels under pressure...not a guy who has a history of folding under pressure. He may become almost immovable unless we keep a portion of contract or take on a contract we don't want. That's a risk many seem ok with taking. Not sure I am.
I honestly don't think we will ruin Gardiner and Rielly if Dion is gone and we pair them with solid vets until they are ready to lead the pairing themselves. Just for example,( not saying it would or should happen), you could get Larsson, Salvador and Matteau from NJ for Dion. Short term pain for long term gain...(possibly), but no one knows if we would be ok without Dion because his biggest asset is he is sooo durable. I do know he is one of oldest players and we have had little success with him, not saying his fault, but maybe time for a change.

What we're arguing over is the timing of a potential Phaneuf deal.

The time to trade Dion is not now. That opportunity has already passed this off-season which is the point your missing. Teams have already made their off-season moves so you won't get top value for Phaneuf now!

Almost half the league is within a few million of the cap limit so we'd have to take on a salary dump from one of those teams which would suck. Most of the rest of the teams that could afford him without sending major salary either have an internal budget OR wouldn't want to dedicate cap room to him OR he doesn't fit their rebuilding phase. So out of the few teams that could afford him with us potentially getting a good return, some of those teams might be on his NTC list.

The cap is already due to rise next season which will his make contract more digestible to teams. The # 1 time teams overpay in a trade is at the deadline. We also don't hve anywhere else good to spend extra cap dollars this off-season.

Dion is a 3 time all-star and the only top pairing Dman on what has been a terrible team for the majority of his time in Toronto. Do you really think other GMs are going to say Oh No Dion didn't lead his team to the promised land in the 14-15 season on a team with no legitimate # 1 center, so-so depth and no other top pairing quality Dman?

Beauchemin + Kaberle also played on some terrible contract teams and it sure didn't hurt their trade values. Burns + JayBo also played on some bad teams and it sure didn't hurt their ability to get traded.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

Then why sign Franson at all? And unless Granberg will do it, I still don't see how it affects Dion's pairing.

Because injuries happen and sometimes players regress.

It also could have do with timing of getting max value for a player.

The team might have faith in Granberg but we wouldn't have got much value for Franson this off-season when teams could have just signed a UFA instead.

Once injuries start kicking in around the league, Nonis might hope a team gets desperate and overpays for Franson who most teams will be able to fit in under the cap because the Leafs would be able to retain up to half his salary on his 1-year deal.

 

[Leaf Rocket]

*inserts chuckwoods sign*

 

[Lifeisnice]

*inserts chuckwoods sign*

Lenny's expression there is amazing

 

[Stephen]

I wonder if a Ryan Johansen for James van Riemsdyk principle trade would be possible.

They are both coming off of similar breakout years. JVR is signed dirt cheap for a very long time, is really getting better by leaps and bounds every year in Toronto. Johansen is a few years younger and more importantly plays center, but is looking for big money right away.

 

[FifthLine]

I wonder if a Ryan Johansen for James van Riemsdyk principle trade would be possible.

They are both coming off of similar breakout years. JVR is signed dirt cheap for a very long time, is really getting better by leaps and bounds every year in Toronto. Johansen is a few years younger and more importantly plays center, but is looking for big money right away.

Probably a long shot, but you never know. Would be a great trade for us, especially with all the winger depth we have now.

 

[Swervin81]

Any interest in Kevin Hayes?

 

[Lifeisnice]

Any interest in Kevin Hayes?

Not really, I think we are pretty stocked on wingers

 

[one77]

Kadri + 1st 2015 + Franson + Reimer for Johansen?


---------


JVR - Johansen - Kessel (A)
Lupul (A) - Bozak - Nylander
Komarov - Kontiola - Clarkson
Winnik - Santorelli - Holland
-Booth/Frattin/Ashton

Gardiner - Phaneuf (C)
Rielly - Robidas
Granberg - Polak
Percy

Bernier
X

 

[The Thin White Duke]

Not really, I think we are pretty stocked on wingers

Are we? We have no legitimate #2RW, our #2LW can be counted on for half a season maybe, the rest are bargain bin grinders. Santorelli might be good enough for 2nd line wing if he's recovered from his injury.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Any interest in Kevin Hayes?

Yes ... Would be a good add to the prospect pool

 

[Beleafer4]

Any interest in Kevin Hayes?

Another asset is always welcome.

I think the real question is if Kevin Hayes has any interest in us.

 

[Lifeisnice]

Kadri + 1st 2015 + Franson + Reimer for Johansen?


---------


JVR - Johansen - Kessel (A)
Lupul (A) - Bozak - Nylander
Komarov - Kontiola - Clarkson
Winnik - Santorelli - Holland
-Booth/Frattin/Ashton

Gardiner - Phaneuf (C)
Rielly - Robidas
Granberg - Polak
Percy

Bernier
X

Not enough for Columbus to move him. They will demand the conversation start with Reilly or Nylander. We should also be trying to hold on to our 2015 first rounder

 

[VanW27]

JVR and Kadri might be enough to get CBJ to let go of Johansen if there's a rift between him and the team. The question then becomes do the Leafs believe Johansen is the player from last year with room to improve or was it an anomaly?

 

[Jacob8hockey*]

JVR and Kadri might be enough to get CBJ to let go of Johansen if there's a rift between him and the team. The question then becomes do the Leafs believe Johansen is the player from last year with room to improve or was it an anomaly?

JVR + Kadri is too much even though we get a surefire #1C. I have no doubts he is the real thing.

I'd have no problems with JVR/Kadri +. I would be concerned about JVR + Kadri. Since this would only be an offseason deal I'd say no. If he signs longterm to a contract and CBJ doesn't like it and wants to move him mid season and one of Kadri/JVR is struggling then I would strongly consider it but I would want another piece coming back.

This Johansen situation could be one of our only chances at getting a #1 C in a while without tanking. The Leafs should be very serious about this and try to get something done.

 

[Stephen]

I don't think the difference between Johansen and JVR is Kadri. If it's those two going back, we'd have to get something good back as a throw in as well.