Salary Cap: 2014-15 Roster-building Thread XV : Turns out we don't need wingers. Oops.

[Hottubber]

I don't think you can say that about any player outside of the best of the best.

What are you getting in return? Because I wouldn't move him for a pair of 2nds either way. But I would trade him (regardless of Maatta) if I was getting someone like Etem/Palmieri/Silfverberg/DSP/etc in return. I'd consider it if it was a 1st+.

The bottom line is having Martin gives you a better chance at winning then not having him. Having Martin over one of the above forwards and Dumoulin/Bortuzzo might only give you a slightly better chance (increased F depth vs decreased D depth). However you're helping the team long term with only a slight impact this year (depending on how said player does here).

It's a balancing act... but bottom line? I think discussing it to death is a waste of time, as I think it's highly unlikely JR moves either Martin or Scuderi (at least this season).

I really like a lot of the young guys that the ducks have, but what about a deal around Belesky + pick for Martin?

Both are UFA's, sounds like unless Belesky takes a home town discount, the ducks are going to have a hard time resigning him, and he could definitely slot into the top 6 for us. He isn't an ideal top 6, but he has proven he can play with Perry and Getz, and has 14 goals already this year

 

[Gurglesons]

Then please tell me how M & M helped us win the cup. Looking back in my memory, I don't remember one playoff game where I said "thank god we have either M & M on the roster".

9 million dollars in cap space that did nothing to help Geno or Sid. 9 million dollars for guys who brought zero physicality to the roster which is quite important during the playoffs. 9 million dollars and our defense wasn't improved at all, not even slightly.

Our issue in 2011 was Malkin and Crosby being hurt. Our issue in 2012 was not defense, it was a complete lack of discipline and a once in a lifetime playoff series. NHL teams need defense. M & M are legitimate top four defensemen and that signing was exactly what our team needed at the time. We also had really no options to trade for defensemen either at the time.

There are 30 teams in the league. How bad did the Chara signing look until 2011?

 

[Riptide]

Obviously, I'm looking at it from the standpoint that the Oilers would make Sutter the centerpiece and focal point of the trade. And quickly try to re-sign him when they first are able to. He's an Alberta boy (even if he was born on Long Island), so I would think he could stick around.

If they don't view him as such, then I'm with you it makes no sense.

Yeah, for Taylor Hall! Kidding.

Do I think Sutter would sign there? Yes (for the same reasons I don't think he'll sign here). One because they'd pay him a lot of money. They'd need him, and just traded their best player for him (in your Hall example) - that gives him a ton of leverage. Two (and I think this is just as important), because in the short term its a chance to prove to himself and the hockey world that he can play as a #2 center (which I think he can - in the Kesler lite mold). He would get the offensive linemates and opportunities that we can't give him (when healthy). Sure he might have to compete with a young kid for the spot... but he'll get the chance to compete for it. He can't get that here.

But that still doesn't mean you move Hall for him. Sutter is someone that Edmonton trades Perron (whom I think is in a similar situation in Edmonton as Sutter is here), or perhaps Eberle or Yakupov. Sutter is available for something significantly less than Hall.

For example, you don't need to spend a hundred to buy a newspaper when you have a twenty or a fifty in your wallet (not quite the same as $ all adds up to the same thing, but you should get what I'm saying). Same applies to Sutter. He won't be cheap, but Edmonton has other quality pieces (lesser quality than Hall, but still quality pieces) that we'd still be very interested in and who value wise are a lot closer to Sutter than Hall is.

 

[cheesedanish87]

I don't care about losing him for nothing. You can't let core young players get away for nothing but Martin isn't one of those. As a contender you will inevitably lose a lot of vets for nothing. That's just life as a contender. He's a top 4 D that can help us on a playoff run. That's worth more to me than a couple 2nds.

Your really not losing these players for nothing, if Martin leaves your getting 5 million in cap space to upgrade your roster, When Orpik signed with the caps the pens got 3.75 million in cap space to improve the roster, the cap space the pens get when these guys leave is more valuable then the assets they would get back in a trade.

 

[penguins2946*]

Unless, if Maatta is done for the year - and Edmonton is comfortable trading for him, they still make the deal now. What does it matter if Maatta wont be back this season to the oilers? It gives Edmonton a much better shot at finishing last

I think it benefits both teams to do the deal this season. If there is a deal to be made that is. Im still very skeptical that Hall is even on the market

I wasn't even referring to Maatta when I said the Oilers were probably going to wait. I was just saying that they would likely wait until the offseason, when more teams have the cap space to bring in Hall.

 

[CanadianPensFan1]

Have you seen our record the past couple of weeks with the amount of injuries we've had?

The Pens have the third best playoff record outside of the Kings and Hawks the last couple of years. This idea that we are suddenly the furtherest thing from a contender is completely ridiculous. The East is a complete crap shoot this year. Tampa was considered one of our main competitors and we just beat them up 4-2 with half our roster out. You keep Martin unless you get a 1st or a legitimate top 9 NHLer. Especially if Maatta is out.

SAH-WEET. They have the 3rd best playoff record. Huzzah.

Look, if your barometer for success is consecutive 1st or 2nd round exits, thats awesome.

PS. I also never said that they were the "furtherest" thing from a contender. I just said, as they stand right now, I dont think they will win it. They are improved from last season but so are some other teams. I think the Bolts, Islanders and, once healthy, the Bruins can all take out the Pens (or vice versa) .. like you said, crap shoot.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

That's about where I'm at. Martin eats minutes, but it's not clear to me those minutes can't be eaten by committee and throwing 58 out for a couple extra shifts. The next time I see Letang gassed from too much ice time will probably be the first.

iirc the 25 minute mark is where Letang starts to have problems, there was a thing online about it. So there's a line with him even if he physically looks fine and overplaying Letang probably ends in injury.

 

[Riptide]

I really like a lot of the young guys that the ducks have, but what about a deal around Belesky + pick for Martin?

Both are UFA's, sounds like unless Belesky takes a home town discount, the ducks are going to have a hard time resigning him, and he could definitely slot into the top 6 for us. He isn't an ideal top 6, but he has proven he can play with Perry and Getz, and has 14 goals already this year

Yeah him too. I'm not set in stone on anything when it comes to Martin (other than not trading him for a pair of 2nds). I'd probably rather someone with a little more potential... but wouldn't complain if we got Belesky+. But like I said... I expect to see JR move one of our young D and picks for rentals and keep Martin and Scuderi. Maybe if Maatta is around he might move Martin if he gets a great return... but I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

[Riptide]

Perhaps hedging your bets was the wrong wording. Im specifically talking about the likelyhood of them making a long cup run. If Im the GM, I look at the team as a whole and judge whether or not they have a legit chance of winning it all. If Im in that chair, I dont see it. Sure, if the moons and suns all align, any team can win. But a lot has to fall into place.

Im not saying (2) 2nd's is what I would WANT for Martin. If you can get a top 9 forward or a 1st, by all means.

I just look at it from an overall perspective .. if the chances are low of a long playoff run WITH Martin, they wont be that much lower without him. So, given that, you move him for the best return possible. If you think that the team has a legit chance at a cup run, the decision is different.

Disagree completely. Martin on his game is a top pairing D and absolutely makes an impact in our ability to go deep. There's also a difference between moving him for a reasonable return (aka a 1st+/young top 9 winger+, etc) and for the best offer of the crappy ones.

Boston got two 2nds and a conditional 3rd (if NYI trades Boynton to an eastern team) because they HAD to move him. They didn't have time to hold out and shop him, and they couldn't take ANY salary back. That wasn't a trade, that was a sale, and one they had to do. JR is in a completely different situation with Martin. He can try to sell Martin... but if he doesn't like the prices, Martin can still provide solid value to Pittsburgh over the playoffs. Which is why those saying Martin will only get two 2nds is laughable.

 

[billybudd]

iirc the 25 minute mark is where Letang starts to have problems, there was a thing online about it. So there's a line with him even if he physically looks fine and overplaying Letang probably ends in injury.

I wonder. Just linked this article in the media thread

http://triblive.com/sports/penguins/7379828-74/letang-coffey-game#axzz3MBaGtOS1

but I'm referencing it now because of a Martin quote.

“His game has evolved over the years,” Martin said. “Especially this year, I've seen it a lot, where he's making the simple plays and making it easy on himself and not putting himself in position to get hit. Which, for a guy like that, that's what opposing teams have to try to do to get him off his game.

He's suggesting that Letang used to put himself in position to get killed and doesn't now.

While Letang was in a position to get killed a lot in past years, I'd personally blame that mostly on Bylsma's strategy at forcing dumps then not setting picks on the forechecker, but, whatever the cause, Martin's not wrong that Letang isn't in dangerous situations nearly as often this year as he was formerly. His one injury so far happened when a guy literally fell on his calf at center ice. Freak thing.

 

[Gurglesons]

SAH-WEET. They have the 3rd best playoff record. Huzzah.

Look, if your barometer for success is consecutive 1st or 2nd round exits, thats awesome.

PS. I also never said that they were the "furtherest" thing from a contender. I just said, as they stand right now, I dont think they will win it. They are improved from last season but so are some other teams. I think the Bolts, Islanders and, once healthy, the Bruins can all take out the Pens (or vice versa) .. like you said, crap shoot.

So, you don't trade away what could be your second best defenseman in the playoffs for a couple second round picks. Especially when Crosby and Malkin probably have around five or six years in which they can win another cup.

We have proven that we can beat all of the Bolts, Islanders, and Bruins, and we finally have a coach who is completely ignorant and thinks he can get away without line matching because he has Crosby and Malkin. We actually have a coach that builds his team based on the strengths of Crosby, Malkin and players like Letang.

 

[CanadianPensFan1]

Disagree completely. Martin on his game is a top pairing D and absolutely makes an impact in our ability to go deep. There's also a difference between moving him for a reasonable return (aka a 1st+/young top 9 winger+, etc) and for the best offer of the crappy ones.

Boston got two 2nds and a conditional 3rd (if NYI trades Boynton to an eastern team) because they HAD to move him. They didn't have time to hold out and shop him, and they couldn't take ANY salary back. That wasn't a trade, that was a sale, and one they had to do. JR is in a completely different situation with Martin. He can try to sell Martin... but if he doesn't like the prices, Martin can still provide solid value to Pittsburgh over the playoffs. Which is why those saying Martin will only get two 2nds is laughable.

That an important distinction. He has barely been playing like a top 4 dman thus far this season (outside of a game or two). I can say this without any hyperbole but he hasnt been noticeably better than Scuds/Despres. If his play keeps up, as it has so far this season, to the end of the season and playoffs, he doesnt add much except eating minutes. He has been awful, imo. Id love to see Despres take away some of his minutes to limit his on ice time personally.

If Martin turns it around and starts playing like he CAN and HAS played, then it might be different.

But, like you said on another thread, it is pointless discussion. I dont believe that GMJR would trade him either.

 

[Riptide]

New thread is up.
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?p=94219265#post94219265