Salary Cap: 2014-15 Roster-building Thread XV : Turns out we don't need wingers. Oops.

[Captain Hook]

Sure but the reality is a couple of seconds is better than losing him for nothing. He wont re-sign here. His agent can play whatever lip service he wants but its not going to happen. He is going to be in for a big pay day and the Pens cant afford to pay him the likely $6.5+ that he is going to want/get.

I don't care about losing him for nothing. You can't let core young players get away for nothing but Martin isn't one of those. As a contender you will inevitably lose a lot of vets for nothing. That's just life as a contender. He's a top 4 D that can help us on a playoff run. That's worth more to me than a couple 2nds.

 

[Coastal Kev]

Your turning point for Shero / Bylsma was Shero bringing in the highest touted UFA defensemen onto a team that had just been knocked out of the playoffs because of their glaring lack of defensemen?

You can't even spell Michalek, did you just start watching the Pens a year or two ago?

Please define "highest touted UFA defensemen". And FYI, I have been proven correct. Martin was letdown for 75% of his time here and Michalek ( I refused to look up spelling for a player of his caliber) was traded for a bag of peanuts.

Lastly, your critique of my knowledge is a badge of honor for myself since I never agree with any of your posts.

 

[Riptide]

Sure but the reality is a couple of seconds is better than losing him for nothing. He wont re-sign here. His agent can play whatever lip service he wants but its not going to happen. He is going to be in for a big pay day and the Pens cant afford to pay him the likely $6.5+ that he is going to want/get.

FULL STOP

You can't trade him simply because you can get a pair of 2nds and he won't sign a new deal. You MUST look at it a heck of a lot deeper than that. You MUST look at what he brings to the table today (on a bad day, he's still a top 4D, on a good day he's a top pairing D), and whether you have what it takes (internally or externally) to replace what you're losing when it comes to him (internally... questionable). Or if what you're getting in exchange for him (ideally a young top 9F) combined with your internal options makes you better - or is at least enough of a wash short term and beneficial long term to make sense.

If all we could get was a pair of 2nds I don't think I would trade him. A 1st+, maybe, a young top 9F, yes. But definitely not for a pair of 2nds.

If we were a team like Florida or even a bubble team, then maybe I'd agree with this line of thought... but we're not. This is a team that's (rightly or wrongly) expected to contend. And while I think we have some holes to fill, you don't just sell off vets who play meaningful minutes simply because you can get some picks - especially as they wouldn't be very good ones (late 2nd round).

 

[CanadianPensFan1]

I don't care about losing him for nothing. You can't let core young players get away for nothing but Martin isn't one of those. As a contender you will inevitably lose a lot of vets for nothing. That's just life as a contender. He's a top 4 D that can help us on a playoff run. That's worth more to me than a couple 2nds.

You may not care but its poor asset management.

There was VERY little chance we were gonna win the cup last year and we lost Orpik for nothing (to be fair, not sure how much we would have gotten for him anyway) and Nisky (for whom we could have gotten a good return for, without a doubt).

Unless the Pens sign a couple of wingers, they isnt much chance they are gonna win the cup this year anyway. So why keep Martin and lose him for nothing. Sure, you never know if you are going to win or lose but you hedge your bets on a likely outcome.

If the Pens trade for a couple of wingers, then absolutely, hang on to Martin for the cup run. But otherwise, I just dont see the point.

 

[Riptide]

I am probably guilty of undervaluing Martin with the Pens. I just think we have too many PMD's on our blueline. Ideally, I would have a PMD pair with a physical Dman. My belief is that Martin would hold more value for a team that lacks his skillset with their D corps and could bring back something of value in a trade.

Again, I am biased with Martin. I never understood why Shero was so excited to bring him and Michalek 4 years ago. That was the turning point for me with Shero/Bylsma. Ever since, I have disliked Martin while acknowledging he was pretty good last season.

Agree completely. A top 4 of Martin, Maatta, Letang and Ehrhoff is way too similar (avg sized non physical players). I think it could win... but ideally it would be changed up. I also think Martin would bring back a decent return in the form of a young top 9 forward with potential - IF it's the right team making the trade. Otherwise I could see a 1st+.

Initially I liked the Michalek signing, and hated the Martin signing - however Martin's 1st year here won me over. I was expecting more from Michalek. Wasn't mad when we moved him... but was far from happy at the return (more D... really?!).

 

[Gurglesons]

Please define "highest touted UFA defensemen". And FYI, I have been proven correct. Martin was letdown for 75% of his time here and Michalek ( I refused to look up spelling for a player of his caliber) was traded for a bag of peanuts.

Lastly, your critique of my knowledge is a badge of honor for myself since I never agree with any of your posts.

Martin and Michalek were both offered more money from other teams. We lost in 2010 because our defense got completely exploited by the Habs. If you don't understand why we signed M&M, you haven't been watching the Pens for awhile and anyone blaming either deal as a black mark on Shero's record is just being ridiculous.

The main issue was the fact we moved Michalek for cap room two years later and got nothing in return for him, not even one of the UFAs we wanted.

 

[IcedCapp]

Let's assume that Maatta is out for the year and that the Pens are able to acquire one top-6 winger, but only depth players after that

Do you believe Paul Martin is the difference between winning a cup and not?

 

[CanadianPensFan1]

FULL STOP

You can't trade him simply because you can get a pair of 2nds and he won't sign a new deal. You MUST look at it a heck of a lot deeper than that. You MUST look at what he brings to the table today (on a bad day, he's still a top 4D, on a good day he's a top pairing D), and whether you have what it takes (internally or externally) to replace what you're losing when it comes to him (internally... questionable). Or if what you're getting in exchange for him (ideally a young top 9F) combined with your internal options makes you better - or is at least enough of a wash short term and beneficial long term to make sense.

If all we could get was a pair of 2nds I don't think I would trade him. A 1st+, maybe, a young top 9F, yes. But definitely not for a pair of 2nds.

If we were a team like Florida or even a bubble team, then maybe I'd agree with this line of thought... but we're not. This is a team that's (rightly or wrongly) expected to contend. And while I think we have some holes to fill, you don't just sell off vets who play meaningful minutes simply because you can get some picks - especially as they wouldn't be very good ones (late 2nd round).

Sure, expected to contend. But they arent going to as constructed today.

If we were right approaching the trade deadline and no prospects for any forward upgrades were on the horizon, Id definitely move him. I dont see the Pens coming out of the east as they are. we've seen it time and time again that they will roll through the regular season and peter out.

Again, if they shore up the winger situation, then absoltuely hang on to Martin for the long cup run.

I might be jaded by the last few years of playoff suck outs. I wont deny that.

 

[Gurglesons]

Let's assume that Maatta is out for the year and that the Pens are able to acquire one top-6 winger, but only depth players after that

Do you believe Paul Martin is the difference between winning a cup and not?

GMs don't like to look like idiots. Peter Chiarelli looks like a moron moving Boychuk. An NHL GM isn't going to move out a legit top four defenseman when he is missing one and has an injury ridden one in the top four as well. It might look stupid from the perspective of a fan, but I severely doubt if Maatta is out the year they are trading Martin. It may be what we want in terms of a future roster, but I highly doubt JR does it if we are missing a top four d-man all year.

 

[pensfan71]

I want Kozun.

Nvm....forgot how small he was

 

[CanadianPensFan1]

GMs don't like to look like idiots. Peter Chiarelli looks like a moron moving Boychuk. An NHL GM isn't going to move out a legit top four defenseman when he is missing one and has an injury ridden one in the top four as well. It might look stupid from the perspective of a fan, but I severely doubt if Maatta is out the year they are trading Martin. It may be what we want in terms of a future roster, but I highly doubt JR does it if we are missing a top four d-man all year.

This I agree with.

My posts about Martin were assuming Maatta is playing in the playoffs. If he isnt, then its a different story.

 

[Riptide]

You may not care but its poor asset management.

There was VERY little chance we were gonna win the cup last year and we lost Orpik for nothing (to be fair, not sure how much we would have gotten for him anyway) and Nisky (for whom we could have gotten a good return for, without a doubt).

Unless the Pens sign a couple of wingers, they isnt much chance they are gonna win the cup this year anyway. So why keep Martin and lose him for nothing. Sure, you never know if you are going to win or lose but you hedge your bets on a likely outcome.

If the Pens trade for a couple of wingers, then absolutely, hang on to Martin for the cup run. But otherwise, I just dont see the point.

Hedging your bets is getting someone like Etem who can help (to an extent) immediately and has the potential to be better in future seasons, or getting a player back in return and a pick. A pair of 2nd's (likely in 15/16 drafts) who might help in 4-6 years isn't hedging your bets.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Though it would be interesting for Edmonton to end up with both McDavid and Eichel. Not often you'd get to see the same team ruin 2 "can't miss" prospects from the same class.

Nice one.

Why would they? Sutter has 1 yr left before he's a pending FA. Kunitz is 35 years old. Jarry is at least 3 years away from the NHL and is still in juniors! There's no 1st round pick or highly touted prospect or anyone signed to any real term. That deal would be a disaster for Edmonton.

I think the world of Jarry... but goalies are VERY hard to project (simply look at all the good ones drafted outside of the first 2 rounds). I like Sutter... but while Edmonton might do a deal around Perron for him (I won't get into who's adding), he can't be the center piece in a Hall deal... especially not when the other core piece is Kunitz. That makes ZERO sense for Edmonton. If you're moving an asset like Hall who's signed with term left, there needs to be some sort of certainty coming back. Go look at the Nash trade. It won't be a direct comparable, but at least it'll be close. 2 guys in their mid 20's (Dubinsky, Anisimov) a 1st and a highly touted D prospect (Erixon). That's a far cry from what you offered.

Obviously, I'm looking at it from the standpoint that the Oilers would make Sutter the centerpiece and focal point of the trade. And quickly try to re-sign him when they first are able to. He's an Alberta boy (even if he was born on Long Island), so I would think he could stick around.

If they don't view him as such, then I'm with you it makes no sense.

Which means we can get more in return for him when we trade him.

Yeah, for Taylor Hall! Kidding.

GMs don't like to look like idiots. Peter Chiarelli looks like a moron moving Boychuk. An NHL GM isn't going to move out a legit top four defenseman when he is missing one and has an injury ridden one in the top four as well. It might look stupid from the perspective of a fan, but I severely doubt if Maatta is out the year they are trading Martin. It may be what we want in terms of a future roster, but I highly doubt JR does it if we are missing a top four d-man all year.

Why does Peter Chiarelli look like an idiot? He regularly sits out two defensemen every night and has plenty of depth on D. His team can't score. Had he dealt away a forward, he would have looked like an idiot.

He did what he had to do.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Let's assume that Maatta is out for the year and that the Pens are able to acquire one top-6 winger, but only depth players after that

Do you believe Paul Martin is the difference between winning a cup and not?

I'm not going to say he categorically wouldn't be the difference. But the forward situation is horrible and at some point you bite the bullet and really try to do something about it. There's a lot to be said for making it right by Sid and Geno.

Hello, Winnipeg, Dallas, Anaheim and Colorado.

 

[Coastal Kev]

Martin and Michalek were both offered more money from other teams. We lost in 2010 because our defense got completely exploited by the Habs. If you don't understand why we signed M&M, you haven't been watching the Pens for awhile and anyone blaming either deal as a black mark on Shero's record is just being ridiculous.

The main issue was the fact we moved Michalek for cap room two years later and got nothing in return for him, not even one of the UFAs we wanted.

I did a brief scan of some guys Shero could have signed instead of M & M

Sobotka - Imagine him on Geno's line even today
Gonchar - Would have kept him over M or M
Kumelin - See Sobtka
Konopka or Ivanans for fun


Among a list of about 25 other players that I would have took over M & M

 

[Shwag33]

Let's assume that Maatta is out for the year and that the Pens are able to acquire one top-6 winger, but only depth players after that

Do you believe Paul Martin is the difference between winning a cup and not?

I could probably say that about any player save from crosby and malkin.


The answer to that question is potentially and always will be.

 

[Gurglesons]

I did a brief scan of some guys Shero could have signed instead of M & M

Sobotka - Imagine him on Geno's line even today
Gonchar - Would have kept him over M or M
Kumelin - See Sobtka
Konopka or Ivanans for fun


Among a list of about 25 other players that I would have took over M & M

Sobotka went back to the K and also was a trade, so we couldn't have signed him

Kumelin was in the second year of an RFA deal in 2010.

Gonchar would've been a ridiculously stupid signing given the fact that his play completely fell apart and we needed a legitimate number two defenseman.

We had center depth of Crosby, Malkin, Staal, why would we sell Konopka?

Thanks for proving you are completely off base yet again.

http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/34292-NHL-Free-Agent-Day-1-Tracker-2010.html

Here is a list you can check out okay. Oh, and before you say we should've signed Hamhuis. We traded for his rights and he signed with Vancouver anyway if you don't remember.

 

[penguins2946*]

It's too bad that the Hall trade, if it happens, won't happen until the offseason. Sutter would only have 1 year left on his deal, which really hurts his value (unless its a sign and trade). The package would probably be based around Sutter and Maatta for Hall, and unless Sutter is signed long term, I don't think that would interest them too much. I'm still all in on the Sutter for Perron deal though, it makes so much sense.

 

[Riptide]

Let's assume that Maatta is out for the year and that the Pens are able to acquire one top-6 winger, but only depth players after that

Do you believe Paul Martin is the difference between winning a cup and not?

I don't think you can say that about any player outside of the best of the best.

What are you getting in return? Because I wouldn't move him for a pair of 2nds either way. But I would trade him (regardless of Maatta) if I was getting someone like Etem/Palmieri/Silfverberg/DSP/etc in return. I'd consider it if it was a 1st+.

The bottom line is having Martin gives you a better chance at winning then not having him. Having Martin over one of the above forwards and Dumoulin/Bortuzzo might only give you a slightly better chance (increased F depth vs decreased D depth). However you're helping the team long term with only a slight impact this year (depending on how said player does here).

It's a balancing act... but bottom line? I think discussing it to death is a waste of time, as I think it's highly unlikely JR moves either Martin or Scuderi (at least this season).

 

[CanadianPensFan1]

Hedging your bets is getting someone like Etem who can help (to an extent) immediately and has the potential to be better in future seasons, or getting a player back in return and a pick. A pair of 2nd's (likely in 15/16 drafts) who might help in 4-6 years isn't hedging your bets.

Perhaps hedging your bets was the wrong wording. Im specifically talking about the likelyhood of them making a long cup run. If Im the GM, I look at the team as a whole and judge whether or not they have a legit chance of winning it all. If Im in that chair, I dont see it. Sure, if the moons and suns all align, any team can win. But a lot has to fall into place.

Im not saying (2) 2nd's is what I would WANT for Martin. If you can get a top 9 forward or a 1st, by all means.

I just look at it from an overall perspective .. if the chances are low of a long playoff run WITH Martin, they wont be that much lower without him. So, given that, you move him for the best return possible. If you think that the team has a legit chance at a cup run, the decision is different.

 

[Hottubber]

It's too bad that the Hall trade, if it happens, won't happen until the offseason. Sutter would only have 1 year left on his deal, which really hurts his value (unless its a sign and trade). The package would probably be based around Sutter and Maatta for Hall, and unless Sutter is signed long term, I don't think that would interest them too much. I'm still all in on the Sutter for Perron deal though, it makes so much sense.

Unless, if Maatta is done for the year - and Edmonton is comfortable trading for him, they still make the deal now. What does it matter if Maatta wont be back this season to the oilers? It gives Edmonton a much better shot at finishing last

I think it benefits both teams to do the deal this season. If there is a deal to be made that is. Im still very skeptical that Hall is even on the market

 

[Coastal Kev]

Sobotka went back to the K and also was a trade, so we couldn't have signed him

Kumelin was in the second year of an RFA deal in 2010.

Gonchar would've been a ridiculously stupid signing given the fact that his play completely fell apart and we needed a legitimate number two defenseman.

We had center depth of Crosby, Malkin, Staal, why would we sell Konopka?

Thanks for proving you are completely off base yet again.

http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/34292-NHL-Free-Agent-Day-1-Tracker-2010.html

Here is a list you can check out okay. Oh, and before you say we should've signed Hamhuis. We traded for his rights and he signed with Vancouver anyway if you don't remember.

Then please tell me how M & M helped us win the cup. Looking back in my memory, I don't remember one playoff game where I said "thank god we have either M & M on the roster".

9 million dollars in cap space that did nothing to help Geno or Sid. 9 million dollars for guys who brought zero physicality to the roster which is quite important during the playoffs. 9 million dollars and our defense wasn't improved at all, not even slightly.

 

[billybudd]

Let's assume that Maatta is out for the year and that the Pens are able to acquire one top-6 winger, but only depth players after that

Do you believe Paul Martin is the difference between winning a cup and not?

That's about where I'm at. Martin eats minutes, but it's not clear to me those minutes can't be eaten by committee and throwing 58 out for a couple extra shifts. The next time I see Letang gassed from too much ice time will probably be the first.

 

[Gurglesons]

I just look at it from an overall perspective .. if the chances are low of a long playoff run WITH Martin, they wont be that much lower without him. So, given that, you move him for the best return possible. If you think that the team has a legit chance at a cup run, the decision is different.

Have you seen our record the past couple of weeks with the amount of injuries we've had?

The Pens have the third best playoff record outside of the Kings and Hawks the last couple of years. This idea that we are suddenly the furtherest thing from a contender is completely ridiculous. The East is a complete crap shoot this year. Tampa was considered one of our main competitors and we just beat them up 4-2 with half our roster out. You keep Martin unless you get a 1st or a legitimate top 9 NHLer. Especially if Maatta is out.

 

[CanadianPensFan1]

The bottom line is having Martin gives you a better chance at winning then not having him.

I think this is the point that we are passing each other on.

In a bubble, yes, Martin gives you a better chance of winning. But the team doesn't operate in a bubble. There are more factors involved.

Again, my biggest evaluator is "can the team win the cup as they are right now?" That's my biggest factor in making this trade or not.

If the answer is yes, you definitely keep Martin. A cup in your pocket is way better than almost ANY return.

But if the answer is no, then why wouldnt you move him? You arent likely to win anyway....