Salary Cap: 2014-15 Roster-building Thread XIV : So you think you know better than Dejan

[Michael8771*]

Yes, lets worry about catering to Sutter and the 3rd line when Nick Spaling, Blake Comeau, and Steve Downie are getting scoring line minutes.

Yes, we really need to know what Sutter could do with better wingers when both of our top centres can be triple teamed because half of their line can't do anything on their own.


What's the obsession with Sutter? Numbers say he's an average scoring centre who can play decent defense... that's not uncommon. If there's a chance to get a Top 6 talent for him, by all mean do it before they get a chance to rethink it. Sutter can be replaced, nothing he does is so uncommon that it's impossible to find.

I might ask you the same thing. Why is he the only viable asset we can trade? Why can't we trade other assets. If he's an ''average'' player why would he command much in return? Seems to me if he's a run of the mill third liner we'd be better off trading other assets.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Similar to the drop off from Staal --> Sutter, the drop off from Sutter -> Goc isn't as big as you think.

Also, Sutter is going to want $4-5M+ next summer. Non-starter. Gotta have some foresight into the future when trading players, which is something Shero NEVER did.

Sutter's signed through 2016, dude. Don't misrepresent it. We still have a season and a half to decide to keep him or not. Either way, it makes little difference on the return to move him this trade deadline or this off-season.

If a huge blockbuster deal comes through, sure, trade the sum*****. But don't act like Sutter's walking in June. That's pretty intellectually dishonest.

 

[Winger for Hire]

I might ask you the same thing. Why is he the only viable asset we can trade?

He's not the only asset they have to trade, but he's apparently the most valuable. We do have a glut on the blueline, but no one seems to be paying top dollar for defenders like Martin. Our prospects aren't enough to pull in Top 6 talent without either giving up 2 good ones or sending them out with high picks. So what's left? Mr Sutter. A centre who, despite numbers showing an average #3C, is thought to be a coveted piece for teams looking for a 1/2 centre.

So it's only logical too take a good long look at what he actually brings to the team and compare it to what he can fetch for the team. And right now what he can fetch is far outweighing what he is bringing.

By all means, lets keep tossing out Dumo, Spaling+ for Kane and a 4th or Scuds, Harrington and a 2nd for JVR.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yes, lets worry about catering to Sutter and the 3rd line when Nick Spaling, Blake Comeau, and Steve Downie are getting scoring line minutes.

Yes, we really need to know what Sutter could do with better wingers when both of our top centres can be triple teamed because half of their line can't do anything on their own.

Give Sid and Geno one winger to fight over and give the one who loses out gets tweeners, scraps and borderline AHLers, but lets get Sutter better toys.

What's the obsession with Sutter? Numbers say he's an average scoring centre who can play decent defense... that's not uncommon. If there's a chance to get a Top 6 talent for him, by all mean do it before they get a chance to rethink it. Sutter can be replaced, nothing he does is so uncommon that it's impossible to find.

The fact that every team outside of Chicago that has won the cup since 2009 has been strong down the center. Not to mention the reason Chicago didn't need to have center depth was because they had insane wing depth which basically no team in the league can rival.

If the Pens want to win we need a balanced attack, selling off Sutter gives us nobody to play against super aggressive teams other than Crosby. We aren't putting a line of Spaling - Goc - Downie against a line like Nelson - Tavares - Okposo or Pacioretty - Galchenyuk - Gallagher. They'll get eaten alive.

 

[cheesedanish87]

He was fantastic in those POs. Fantastic. That said, he´s still very solid this season and that´s with his linemates changing basically every 2 games.

I don´t think that Sutter will be traded this season and I´m fine with that. Guy is a warrior, a leader. He´s competitive. I´m pretty sure he will give his all this POs as well.

I´m not saying that I wouldn´t trade him if the deal is right but I don´t understand why there is this much talk about him in this thread. That should be our planB/planC, not a primary focus.

And as for Goc.. Guy has NO FINISH. NONE. He´s basically Manny Malhotra(who´s not some trash btw) now in this stage of his career. A defensive dog, Pker, faceoff guy. His finish is gone, though. He´s had some breakaways (in the POs too), he´s had some looks with 3rd liners, had some chances... but his shot is incredibly weak. He´s also not creative. Solid 4th line centre, but really nothing more.

Pens have AHL forwards in there lineup and the baby pens have NHL def playing in the AHL, why in the world should the pens trade one of there better forwards in Sutter(IMO the pens 4th best forward) for another forward while they have NHL def playing in the AHL.

It makes no sense at all to me to trade forwards for forwards when your a team with very few forwards and **** load of defense man.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Also, I like that nobody's been trading yet, really, (and JR already traded a nothing prospect for a decent 4th liner) and people still think that there's no possibility a blueliner gets moved. Ever.

Patience is a virtue, I guess.

 

[Michael8771*]

He's not the only asset they have to trade, but he's apparently the most valuable. We do have a glut on the blueline, but no one seems to be paying top dollar for defenders like Martin. Our prospects aren't enough to pull in Top 6 talent without either giving up 2 good ones or sending them out with high picks. So what's left? Mr Sutter. A centre who, despite numbers showing an average #3C, is thought to be a coveted piece for teams looking for a 1/2 centre.

So it's only logical too take a good long look at what he actually brings to the team and compare it to what he can fetch for the team. And right now what he can fetch is far outweighing what he is bringing.

By all means, lets keep tossing out Dumo, Spaling+ for Kane and a 4th or Scuds, Harrington and a 2nd for JVR.

Michael talked about Spaling for cap reasons, but he also discussed, Despres, possibly Pouliot and a number one pick. Those Seem like pretty good assets, certainly (except Spaling) far better than an ''average'' 3c. Why not try to deal them Instead?

 

[cheesedanish87]

He's not the only asset they have to trade, but he's apparently the most valuable. We do have a glut on the blueline, but no one seems to be paying top dollar for defenders like Martin. Our prospects aren't enough to pull in Top 6 talent without either giving up 2 good ones or sending them out with high picks. So what's left? Mr Sutter. A centre who, despite numbers showing an average #3C, is thought to be a coveted piece for teams looking for a 1/2 centre.

So it's only logical too take a good long look at what he actually brings to the team and compare it to what he can fetch for the team. And right now what he can fetch is far outweighing what he is bringing.

By all means, lets keep tossing out Dumo, Spaling+ for Kane and a 4th or Scuds, Harrington and a 2nd for JVR.

PMD and top centers are by far the positions that are in demand, teams are always looking for def.

I'd love to know why you think Sutter is in such high demand, i follow this stuff pretty good, i haven't heard of one team that is looking for 3rd line centers.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Trading always depends on the offer. So, if someone won't part with a great permanent top 6 solution without Sutter, you obviously trade him, without a thought. But man, some of these trade Sutter offers are not good and a lot of them seem to be based on the flawed idea that he walks in June 2015 if we don't resign him.

I just don't really know how to process those competing notions.

I mean, as much as I don't want to trade Letang during the season, he's also a potentially huge asset to move. There's tons of options on the roster, if/when trading opens up. Which it hasn't yet.

 

[Michael8771*]

Pens have AHL forwards in there lineup and the baby pens have NHL def playing in the AHL, why in the world should the pens trade one of there better forwards in Sutter(IMO the pens 4th best forward) for another forward while they have NHL def playing in the AHL.

It makes no sense at all to me to trade forwards for forwards when your a team with very few forwards and **** load of defense man.

Exactly, it makes little sense.

I'm guessin the disconnect here is posters value Sutters abilities very differently. But if the posters who want to trade him don't value him much, why would they expect much return in a trade? The premise and logic are very flawed here.

 

[Winger for Hire]

I'm not scared he walks at the end of the contract... I'm afraid he gets $4mil+ from the Pens.

He's a .37 PPG player with no signs of upping that anytime soon without moving up to a scoring role full-time... which isn't going to happen on the Pens.

 

[HandshakeLine]

i'm not scared he walks at the end of the contract... i'm afraid he gets $4mil+ from the pens.

he's a .37 ppg player with no signs of upping that anytime soon without moving up to a scoring role full-time... Which isn't going to happen on the pens.

In 2016-2017.

So, again, why are you worried about that NOW? They can't even open negotiations until Jan. 1, 2016.

 

[mpp9]

We can move Sutter in the summer if he wants too much money. Hopefully he has a monster playoffs for us and he earns a healthy raise. There's no reason to move him now on that basis.

 

[Michael8771*]

RIGHT! We can trade him in the off season if need be, provided we have another LEGIT option there. But as it stands now, no.

 

[Winger for Hire]

In 2016-2017.

So, again, why are you worried about that NOW? They can't even open negotiations until Jan. 1, 2016.

Mainly because of the rumors of Perron for Sutter. I'd jump all over that, personally.

And I also don't see the 3rd line being a viable focal point for building this team right now with such gaping holes in the 2 lines above it.

And there's also the fact I'm a bit of a weirdo. I do a lot of things I look back on and think, "Oh my, I thought that was a good idea/important/etc.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Perron for Sutter is more of a reason than "he might maybe potentially sorta hopefully in principle want more money two years from now," I'll give you that.

 

[cheesedanish87]

Exactly, it makes little sense.

I'm guessin the disconnect here is posters value Sutters abilities very differently. But if the posters who want to trade him don't value him much, why would they expect much return in a trade? The premise and logic are very flawed here.

Good point.

I'm high on Sutter, i think he could be a 2nd line center, but i don't think that's how hes valued in the league, i think hes looked at as a 3rd line center.

Very few teams need 3rd line centers, and there not going to give up anything of
major value for a 3rd line center.

Maybe its just me, but there are so many reasons trading Sutter doesn't make sense, i don't think many teams would give up much for him and i don't think its good for the pens to trade him.

 

[Michael8771*]

Mainly because of the rumors of Perron for Sutter. I'd jump all over that, personally.

And I also don't see the 3rd line being a viable focal point for building this team right now with such gaping holes in the 2 lines above it.

And there's also the fact I'm a bit of a weirdo. I do a lot of things I look back on and think, "Oh my, I thought that was a good idea/important/etc.[/B]

Better you than I, but that makes some degree of sense.

 

[Michael8771*]

Good point.

I'm high on Sutter, i think he could be a 2nd line center, but i don't think that's how hes valued in the league, i think hes looked at as a 3rd line center.

Very few teams need 3rd line centers, and there not going to give up anything of
major value for a 3rd line center.

Maybe its just me, but there are so many reasons trading Sutter doesn't make sense, i don't think many teams would give up much for him and i don't think its good for the pens to trade him.

Well, of course it's a good point, I made it, so no surprises there.

And we agree yet again. In bold is spot on.

 

[Will Hunting]

With the cap going up (could be 75M easily in 2016), there would be absolutely ZERO problem with giving Sutter something like 4.5M x 4 years extension that time. He´s far from gone. Sure, there are teams where he can operate as a 2C (Oilers), but I doubt that he would want to go to the hell like that. I think he´s pretty satisfied to be here instead of being a 2C in Carolina, too.

 

[Winger for Hire]

Better you than I, but that makes some degree of sense.

We're all weirdos in some way, my friend.

Perron for Sutter is more of a reason than "he might maybe potentially sorta hopefully in principle want more money two years from now," I'll give you that.

Yeah. The whole getting more money on his next contract is more of Reason 4, not on of my main reasons. But you have to think with the way contracts increase, contract to contract, in sports, unless Sutter bombs the rest of this year and next, he's getting a nice raise. Even if he maintains his level of play he'll get a raise, so it's not something to bit your nails or lose sleep over, but I think it's something to keep in the back of your mind and consider when thinking about him.

I don't just want to trade him to trade him. I want a nice hockey trade involving him.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I'm sure Sutter has value around the league. In the same way we get all hot and bothered over young wingers that may or may not be held back on certain teams because of their depth at that position... except moreso because centers are more valuable.

Good Ol' Canadian Boys Network GMs largely living in the past (which is many of them) get silly over big, rangey young centers with flashes of offensive acumen and built-in defensive awareness. Major bonus points for a bloodlines last name such as "Sutter." They feel like they can rescue them and nurture them into the next Bozak, or whatever.

So yes. Sutter is probably the most valuable piece the Penguins have that is semi-realistic to move. In the same way JR fell all over himself to give the Penguins great value for Staal even if he didn't really have to. Though I don't personally think the Penguins have any interest in trading him. So worry not, 3rd line fetishists.

With the cap going up (could be 75M easily in 2016), there would be absolutely ZERO problem with giving Sutter something like 4.5M x 4 years extension that time. He´s far from gone. Sure, there are teams where he can operate as a 2C (Oilers), but I doubt that he would want to go to the hell like that. I think he´s pretty satisfied to be here instead of being a 2C in Carolina, too.

It sure would be nice to use newly available cap money on something that is a massive, glaring problem and has been for quite a while, for a change. As opposed to trying to pull a Staal-over.

 

[Michael8771*]

We're all weirdos in some way, my friend.

Not I, that may be true for the majority of people, but I'm far to logical, lucid and sensible to be lumped in with that sort of label.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I'm personally agnostic on Sutter without knowing what the trade coming back would be. If it's a good offer, I'd do it. I just don't see it as pressing like trading, say, one of Martin or Erhoff (preferably the former), and think we'd probably be better off getting rid of some of the surplus blueliners in the organization before getting rid of forwards who have been playing relatively well.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Not I, that may be true for the majority of people, but I'm far to logical and sensible to be lumped in with that sort of label.

Says the dude on the internet.