Salary Cap: 2014-15 Roster-building Thread IX : How to replace Duper... ?

[Hottubber]

If you trade Martin that means Scuderi and Borts is your bottom pair, or it means one of those guys is in your top 4, both those scenarios would be bad.

What about Despres?

 

[attaamillo]

What about Despres?

And Harrington?

Yea hes not proven but you cant discount him as a surprise option yet.

 

[drpepper]

What about Despres?

That's what the either or meant.

Top 4 definitely has Ehrhoff, Letang and Maatta.

Then one of Bortuzzo, Scuderi or Despres is in the top 4. If Despres is in the top 4, then the bottom pairing is Scuderi-Bortuzzo which was horrendous tonight to the point that HCMJ separated them. If Despres is not in the top 4, then one of Bortuzzo or Scuderi is in the top 4 and that's not very good either.

EDIT: The Pens shouldn't be relying on a rookie defenseman who barring injury will go into the play-offs with very little NHL experience. He has already not played for a fourth of the season.

This is one of the reasons why I doubt the Pens are actively shopping Martin.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Fair enough. Even though hes only 18 and at least a full season away from the NHL...Ritchie would be the perfect young winger for this team.

And I love Cogliano, think his speed would play well next to Sid. But otherwise were back to looking at Martin for DSP or Silvferberg kinda deals.

I'd still be down for that. If JR could flip Dumoulin for someone like Ritchie and then Martin for a young winger from Anaheim I'd consider that a success. Ritchie, Anaheim winger, Kapanen, Sundqvist and 2015 1st round winger (maybe Megna and other WBS guys developing for us) would be pretty nice, maybe someone in free agency. Now if only Dallas and Anaheim would cooperate.

 

[Hottubber]

That's what the either or meant.

Top 4 definitely has Ehrhoff, Letang and Maatta.

Then one of Bortuzzo, Scuderi or Despres is in the top 4. If Despres is in the top 4, then the bottom pairing is Scuderi-Bortuzzo which was horrendous tonight to the point that HCMJ separated them. If Despres is not in the top 4, then one of Bortuzzo or Scuderi is in the top 4 and that's not very good either.

EDIT: The Pens shouldn't be relying on a rookie defenseman who barring injury will go into the play-offs with very little NHL experience. He has already not played for a fourth of the season.

How many games have Bort and Scuds played together tho? I'm not saying it's ideal, but having those 2 as your bottom pairing isn't terrible. Give them some PK mins and limit their even strength time. Id be nice to see Harrington or Dumo in there right now but that probably isn't happening anytime soon

 

[Michael8771*]

Vrbata & Kulemin got multi year deals, Ehrhoff didn't.. Maybe Ehrhoff is redundant currently, but when the ideal winger didn't come our way JR opted to spend the cap room on the D.

Ehrhoff has not been good but it was still a no brainer signing.

And Vrbata would really help now where as Ehrhoff really does not. Not to any meaningful level. And to be clear I said this back then also. Ehrhoff was a luxury and not a necessity, that in and of itself IMO anyhow made it a bad move. Poor asset management.

 

[cheesedanish87]

How many games have Bort and Scuds played together tho? I'm not saying it's ideal, but having those 2 as your bottom pairing isn't terrible. Give them some PK mins and limit their even strength time. Id be nice to see Harrington or Dumo in there right now but that probably isn't happening anytime soon

Its a fair point that you shouldn't judge them on one game, but IMO i don't think Scuderi and Borts would work, especially if they play a team with speed in the playoffs like the NYR or Isles.

 

[drpepper]

How many games have Bort and Scuds played together tho? I'm not saying it's ideal, but having those 2 as your bottom pairing isn't terrible. Give them some PK mins and limit their even strength time. Id be nice to see Harrington or Dumo in there right now but that probably isn't happening anytime soon

They have played together around 205 min 5v5 over the past two years with tonight being the most they've played together under HCMJ.

They haven't ever looked good together because neither one of them is particularly fast, neither one of them moves the puck particularly well, Bortuzzo makes some poor decisions with pinching and standing people up at the blueline, Scuderi errs on too much space to the opposing player, and Bortuzzo isn't fast enough or good enough to cover both his and Scuderi's short-comings.

 

[gordie]

And Vrbata would really help now where as Ehrhoff really does not. Not to any meaningful level. And to be clear I said this back then also. Ehrhoff was a luxury and not a necessity, that in and of itself IMO anyhow made it a bad move. Poor asset management.

If they move Martin and it is possible Ehrhoff picks up his game in Martin's absence. When you have too many of the same type of player it is always possible someone's abilities are being held back and it forces them to take up the challenge.

 

[Michael8771*]

They have played together around 205 min 5v5 over the past two years with tonight being the most they've played together under HCMJ.

They haven't ever looked good together because neither one of them is particularly fast, neither one of them moves the puck particularly well and Bortuzzo isn't fast enough or good enough to cover both his and Scuderi's short-comings.

Yep, throughout the game their lack of foot speed was quite noticeable. They looked at times like they were playing in quicksand.

 

[drpepper]

If they move Martin and it is possible Ehrhoff picks up his game in Martin's absence. When you have too many of the same type of player it is always possible someone's abilities are being held back and it forces them to take up the challenge.

I think that is inherently risky and unreliable. What happens when Ehrhoff continues to play the same way (as most likely happens)?

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Scuds is a hard guy to move. The other two I would rather have than Kulemin...but that's just me!

the isles would have traded for Scuds before they got those 2 guys, IMO.

I take Kule over both Martin and Duper, plus whatever we got for the.

 

[attaamillo]

I'd still be down for that. If JR could flip Dumoulin for someone like Ritchie and then Martin for a young winger from Anaheim I'd consider that a success. Ritchie, Anaheim winger, Kapanen, Sundqvist and 2015 1st round winger (maybe Megna and other WBS guys developing for us) would be pretty nice, maybe someone in free agency. Now if only Dallas and Anaheim would cooperate.

I was actually talking about Nick Ritchie. He has the higher power forward upside. But his brother Brett is more NHL ready and would be easier to get. So yea, I agree, I'd be happy with those moves.

 

[gordie]

I think that is inherently risky and unreliable. What happens when Ehrhoff continues to play the same way (as most likely happens)?

Ehrhoff played 25 minutes for example tonight. This team is struck with him for this season no matter what because of his no movement clause, so you take your chances and hope for the best. Martin is going to go the UFA route this summer, so he is the obvious one to be moved and just hope Harrington is really ready to take the next step.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

I was actually talking about Nick Ritchie. He has the higher power forward upside. But his brother Brett is more NHL ready and would be easier to get. So yea, I agree, I'd be happy with those moves.

My bad.

Sleep might be a good idea.

 

[Riptide]

Ehrhoff has not been good but it was still a no brainer signing.

Really? Because I've liked what I've seen from most of the games I've watched - especially lately.

 

[Riptide]

I'd be ok with that deal without KK involved. Honestly, I still think Pouliot has more value than Hertl. Not even that big on Hertl. But its the Kunitz for Marleau aspect that would make it worth it.

What about Pouliot and Martin for Cogliano and N. Ritchie?

Hertl's proven to be a good NHL player who can score... despite Pouliot's very high upside... he's not worth more than Hertl.

And I love Cogliano, think his speed would play well next to Sid. But otherwise were back to looking at Martin for DSP or Silvferberg kinda deals.

Why bother with Cogliano and Ritchie? Just go with Martin for Palmieri/Etem/etc. Gives us a young player with upside who can help immediately. DSP/Silvferber/etc are fine. Get one of those, and a tweener (one of the usual suspects we've talked about to death), and we're good for the short term - and got younger.

 

[Saints11]

Whereas Scuderi and Bortuzzo were a disaster tonight, I thought Ehrhoff played very well. He was under control and moved the puck quickly out of the zone. I think his play has consistently improved since the beginning of the year. I think that if the Pens move Martin, then Harrington comes up and is inserted into the lineup, especially against speed teams who give Scuderi and Bortuzzo fits. If Martin goes then you might see pairings of Letang and Maatta; Ehrhoff and Despres; Scuderi/Bortuzzo/Harrington. Or it might be Letang and Ehrhoff, Maatta and Harrington (due to the fact they have history together), and Scuderi and Despres. Time has come to let these young D-men th step up.

 

[drpepper]

Ehrhoff played 25 minutes for example tonight. This team is struck with him for this season no matter what because of his no movement clause, so you take your chances and hope for the best. Martin is going to go the UFA route this summer, so he is the obvious one to be moved and just hope Harrington is really ready to take the next step.

What does Ehrhoff's playing time in an OT game have to do with how well he's played? He's still being played less TOI/G than Martin and Letang. He plays slightly more ES but less on the PK (than Martin and Letang) and less on the PP (than Letang).


I wonder whether the Pens (or most sports organization which tend towards conservatism in decision making) will take those kinds of risks.

I can imagine if they move Martin another veteran dman would be coming back or would be obtained at the TDL. Depending on the return for Martin, I'd rather the team stuck with Martin then making those types of trades.

I am also not as confident in Despres or Harrington being able to play more to cover Martin's loss to the top 4.

 

[T1K]

And Vrbata would really help now where as Ehrhoff really does not. Not to any meaningful level. And to be clear I said this back then also. Ehrhoff was a luxury and not a necessity, that in and of itself IMO anyhow made it a bad move. Poor asset management.

Yeah, I mean I was an advocate for Cammalleri (this board HATED him over the summer) both would be better than Ehrhoff. Ultimately I don't mind the Ehrhoff signing, but I'm not as happy about as I was in the summer. I think it was a good value and it gives us the option to trade Martin. If we don't trade Martin (and ideally extend Ehrhoff if we can somehow can unload Scuds too) then the Ehrhoff signing makes very little sense to me outside of it being a good value. After we signed him it was pretty clear that Martin is most likely gone whether it be through trade or FA. So if we trade Martin then I disagree that it's poor asset management. Sure, we should have signed a top 6 winger instead, but that wasn't a guarantee that we'd have even been able to.

Kulemin was a package deal anyways. I'd much rather have Ehrhoff at 4 mil for 1 year with the option to extend him rather than committing a substantial amount to cap and term to Kulemin and Grabo. Ehrhoff was a safe signing, and if there wasn't a winger available that we felt comfortable committing to long term then it made sense why we signed Ehrhoff.

 

[drpepper]

Hertl's proven to be a good NHL player who can score... despite Pouliot's very high upside... he's not worth more than Hertl.



Why bother with Cogliano and Ritchie? Just go with Martin for Palmieri/Etem/etc. Gives us a young player with upside who can help immediately. DSP/Silvferber/etc are fine. Get one of those, and a tweener (one of the usual suspects we've talked about to death), and we're good for the short term - and got younger.

I don't think those players are more than tweeners themselves right now, and I don't necessarily know if any of them will develop into legitimate first liners. You act like they are all interchangeable. Do you think all of them will be first liners?

 

[Allie Kitsune]

I don't see Pouliot going anywhere.

Isn't part of the reason that Johnston came along is his familiarity with Pouliot?

 

[Riptide]

I will keep saying this until my fingers fall off, Sid needs a guys who will make life easier for him, make him at peace. Playoffs last year changed Sid, he was abused to a new level of disrespect. Find him his own Tocchet. I don't care the price, get him a guy that can skate with a very nasty disposition (think Downey only heavy and angrier). If you can find Two, even better. Then, sit back and enjoy. PROFIT

And Geno doesn't? Did we not all just see him get cheap shotted by Boychuk when the puck was no where near him?

 

[Allie Kitsune]

I will keep saying this until my fingers fall off, Sid needs a guys who will make life easier for him, make him at peace. Playoffs last year changed Sid, he was abused to a new level of disrespect. Find him his own Tocchet. I don't care the price, get him a guy that can skate with a very nasty disposition (think Downey only heavy and angrier). If you can find Two, even better. Then, sit back and enjoy. PROFIT

So, I feel like you're saying we need Wayne Simmonds.

Now tell me exactly how we convince Philadelphia to trade him to us.

 

[Riptide]

How many games have Bort and Scuds played together tho? I'm not saying it's ideal, but having those 2 as your bottom pairing isn't terrible. Give them some PK mins and limit their even strength time. Id be nice to see Harrington or Dumo in there right now but that probably isn't happening anytime soon

Its a fair point that you shouldn't judge them on one game, but IMO i don't think Scuderi and Borts would work, especially if they play a team with speed in the playoffs like the NYR or Isles.

They have played together around 205 min 5v5 over the past two years with tonight being the most they've played together under HCMJ.

They haven't ever looked good together because neither one of them is particularly fast, neither one of them moves the puck particularly well, Bortuzzo makes some poor decisions with pinching and standing people up at the blueline, Scuderi errs on too much space to the opposing player, and Bortuzzo isn't fast enough or good enough to cover both his and Scuderi's short-comings.

That. They really shouldn't be paired together. Which was the point of a rather long post a few weeks ago about potentially moving Martin. To me, the downside isn't replacing his minutes or skill in the top 4. It's actually all about how the 3rd pairing works and what you do with Scuderi and Bortuzzo. Because you don't really want to see them together.