Speculation: 2014-15 Central Division: how do Wild stack up?

[tomthestone*]

Yeah that's exactly what you are doing and what you are being called out for.

And no, you never said identical numbers. You said they'd be the same goaltenders regardless of system. They wouldn't. They'd have to adjust for system, or the system would have to adjust for them. Likely something in between would happen.

They would be the same game-changing goaltenders on any team, and could bring any squad not devoid of actual NHL talent a long way. You took what I said to the absolute extreme by using Florida and Buffalo as examples to launch a "there's no I in team, everyone has to pull their weight" speech as if I made it seem like that kind of goaltending can win literally all by itself.

 

[Avder]

They would be the same game-changing goaltenders on any team, and could bring any squad not devoid of actual NHL talent a long way. You took what I said to the absolute extreme by using Florida and Buffalo as examples to launch a "there's no I in team, everyone has to pull their weight" speech as if I made it seem like that kind of goaltending can win literally all by itself.

Again, you said that those elite goaltenders would be the same no matter where they played. The argument is if the system a goaltender plays in matters. You said it doesn't for those elites. Pretty much everyone here has disagreed with you.

 

[tomthestone*]

Again, you said that those elite goaltenders would be the same no matter where they played. The argument is if the system a goaltender plays in matters. You said it doesn't for those elites. Pretty much everyone here has disagreed with you.

Maybe that's a good thing. I should remind you (and myself) this is the same community that has a strong faction of members who want Koivu at 3C, a bunch of posters thinking Cooke should get fourth line minutes and even had a decent chunk of users pushing to pass on Vanek in order to leave space for Zucker.

But back to the Wild, I see our favorite team skipping past one of St. Louis and Chicago and taking second in the division. I know Colorado won it last year, but I still think of STL & CHI as the favorites to go 1/2 in either order for the division crown. Rather read people's agreements or disagreements on that than goaltending -- a subject no one knows anything about anyway.

 

[Mubiki]

They would be the same game-changing goaltenders on any team, and could bring any squad not devoid of actual NHL talent a long way. You took what I said to the absolute extreme by using Florida and Buffalo as examples to launch a "there's no I in team, everyone has to pull their weight" speech as if I made it seem like that kind of goaltending can win literally all by itself.

The only issue I have is that you seem to be playing both sides of the argument.

You say that the Wild can lift pedestrian goalies to decent performances because of the system, but then downplay the systems of others.

If a system can make a bad goalie look average, an average goalie look good, and a good goalie look great, then why can't it make it a great goalie look like a HOFer?

We haven't seen Lundquist, Quick, Rask or Rinne play extended hockey on a team with poor defense, ever. This means not only is it difficult to determine their effectiveness on a poor team, it also means it's entirely possible that they aren't even as talented as one may suggest.

It's ultimately a chicken vs egg conversation; who makes who elite? One thing I can tell you though is that Minnesota's defense is pretty damn good, considering no matter who's in net they do pretty well.

 

[tomthestone*]

I thought I was pretty clear in saying that the right system often does lift average goaltending and mask leaks in a goalie's game, but that those three are already too good to really be helped much by any certain style of play -- something to the effect of "those three help the system more than the system helps them." I guess I should've said that as long as the roster in front of them is close to average quality, the team's style of play shouldn't really matter in the sense that even a pretty bad club could squeeze a playoff appearance out of such supreme goaltending. And we all know that anything can happen once a team gets in, especially one riding a hot netminder.

Looking back at that LA-SJ series this past spring, many were calling for Quick's head because of his ugly ratio stats. He was still making nutty saves routinely when they were down 3-0, then he brings them back from the dead and they win another Cup.

 

[Minnesota]

Maybe that's a good thing. I should remind you (and myself) this is the same community that has a strong faction of members who want Koivu at 3C, a bunch of posters thinking Cooke should get fourth line minutes and even had a decent chunk of users pushing to pass on Vanek in order to leave space for Zucker.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.†- Mark Twain

One of my goals on HFBoards is to never stamp out opposing opinions; just be prepared to make a case for those opinions.

 

[DANOZ28]

Maybe that's a good thing. I should remind you (and myself) this is the same community that has a strong faction of members who want Koivu at 3C, a bunch of posters thinking Cooke should get fourth line minutes and even had a decent chunk of users pushing to pass on Vanek in order to leave space for Zucker.

But back to the Wild, I see our favorite team skipping past one of St. Louis and Chicago and taking second in the division. I know Colorado won it last year, but I still think of STL & CHI as the favorites to go 1/2 in either order for the division crown. Rather read people's agreements or disagreements on that than goaltending -- a subject no one knows anything about anyway.

i would trade koivu before i dropped him to 3C, hes valuable on D, his goal scoring sokks (see sharp). overpaid but glad hes on the team. i'll never like cooke. i think CF told vanek we've got lots of young talent so he convinced him to sign reasonable. im bummed zucker doesnt have a crystal clear roster spot. st louis only allowed 177GA and i think they are better with statsny! hawks have 4 allstar forwards & a top 4 D core as good as anybody. injuries would have to crush those teams for us to pass.

 

[Mubiki]

I thought I was pretty clear in saying that the right system often does lift average goaltending and mask leaks in a goalie's game, but that those three are already too good to really be helped much by any certain style of play -- something to the effect of "those three help the system more than the system helps them." I guess I should've said that as long as the roster in front of them is close to average quality, the team's style of play shouldn't really matter in the sense that even a pretty bad club could squeeze a playoff appearance out of such supreme goaltending. And we all know that anything can happen once a team gets in, especially one riding a hot netminder.

Looking back at that LA-SJ series this past spring, many were calling for Quick's head because of his ugly ratio stats. He was still making nutty saves routinely when they were down 3-0, then he brings them back from the dead and they win another Cup.

What are we using to determine that those goalies are "too good"? Stats. Like it or not, their status is based primarily on their stats. Stats heavily influenced by their system. They don't have stat for awesome saves.

I'm not denying your observations; I think they are pretty good myself. However we haven't seen those goalies outside their incredible systems. It's akin to a science experiment with no control group.

 

[tomthestone*]

What are we using to determine that those goalies are "too good"? Stats. Like it or not, their status is based primarily on their stats. Stats heavily influenced by their system. They don't have stat for awesome saves.

I'm not denying your observations; I think they are pretty good myself. However we haven't seen those goalies outside their incredible systems. It's akin to a science experiment with no control group.

I think that exact point is why I became so defensive when I was met with "your argument has been proven to be BS" type feedback. Having a feel for how incredible NHL goalies are and a sense of the separation in ability from one guy to the next has nothing to do with stats. That's why I tried to reframe what I was saying about how much their presence means to a team's playoff chances as opposed to what their numbers might look like in a different sweater.

 

[Marlowe Syn]

Getting past St Louis and Chicago will be a tough sell.

Chicago- Still probably the team to beat. Although St Louis should be right there if they don't have another epic collapse. They've got that elusive #2C next season in Richards. Their real issues may be moreso the 2015-16 season when Toews and Kane's new contracts kick in. I think the current cap issue is still workable. Bowman has been in tougher situations than this and managed to keep the team intact.

St Louis- I'll be curious how well Statsny plays under a very different Blues system. Plus that pressure of coming home. They are always tough with that D. Brian Elliot has put up good numbers, but now it looks like he's the #1G. Let's see if he can handle the rigors of 60+ starts.

Wild- We all know.

Colorado was impressive last year no doubt, but losing Statsny hurt. Briere is a downgrade from Parenteau. I don't understand that trade. Iginla was a Wild killer, still might be. Varly is a very good goalie, being coached by arguably the greatest goalie of the modern era. Their defense is nothing to write home about. They are the big known unknown in the Central.

Dallas- Their "upgrades" in Spezza and Hemsky doesn't impress me much. They gave up for Spezza too. I think they'll be battling San Jose, Vancouver and possibly even Edmonton(not holding my breath on that one) for the final wild card spot

Nashville- How much of their past success was Trotz driven? New system will probably have a fair share of growing pains/learning curve. I personally don't think James Neal is much of an upgrade over Hornqvist. A healthy Rinne makes them a threat still. I personally still feel that the style Laviolette will implement and the personnel on the Predator roster aren't a match yet.

Winnipeg- Connor McDavid or Jack Eichel c'mon down

 

[Aerchon]

I think Minny should be a playoff team but that well could be while being 5th in the division.

While Minny is a better all around team than Dallas I think people are grossly underestimating how good Dallas "could" do next year. They have some holes but a better group of forwards is hard to find in the league. Great depth at the forward position.

Hemsky away from the suck that is Edmonton and yet not relied upon either could be a huge addition. Depends on if he can stay focused and keep his intensity through out the season.

Spezza is a guy that will really interest me next year. He has the size to succeed in the Western Conference and most likely will not have to face opponents top shut down players. It's not hard to imagine him racking up 80+ points even on the second line.

 

[Minnesota]

I thought Spezza's back injury issues had pretty much neutered him. I mean, he's still good for 60-70 points... But his 80+ seasons are likely in this past.

 

[grN1g]

Spezza is not as good as he was, but when you got Seguin to be the dynamic player and big sick nasty Benn going beast mode Spezza is in an ideal situation.

 

[freeboy]

Best wild team in years

As an avs fan I am asking do you guys feel this way barring some catastrophic injuries?
Seems wild are poised for great run to me....
I come in peace.. At least until the season starts.. Lol

 

[Lapa]

Yes, I think this is the best Wild team ever. Not that close, IMO.

 

[ProfessorMcFatty]

I think it's more than the best Wild team in years, it's the best Wild team ever. Personally, I'll be disappointed if they don't make it to at least the second round of the playoffs. Nothing is a given, but the talent is there.

The Avs, on the other hand, could be a huge surprise in either direction. If nothing else, MacKinnon has the potential for a monster second season. He's a game changer.

 

[DANOZ28]

yes i would agree this is the best wild team, future success depends on goaltending & young guns developing into nhl studs. on paper there are more talented teams out there but we're trending in the right direction.

 

[freeboy]

Honestly wild blues avs all could be heartbreakers if not heathy... Or could be the team. I'm very impressed with this years wild... They are perhaps the team... Again barring injuries. Avs blues as well but wild seem as I said best," Wild team in years. "
I look forward to our games... You will see a radically different team in Avs, still young but much deeper.
Best wishes to you and your team... Until we meet again!

 

[rynryn]

absolutely the best Wild team ever. There's a lot of brutal hockey going to be played in the Central. I think the talent levels on a good chunk of the teams are close enough where injuries might actually be a legitimate excuse for missing the playoffs. or if not an excuse, a reason.

 

[Bookman]

What sets this team apart is the depth - they have potential future studs in Dumba, Olofsson, Zucker waiting in the wings. Talented depth has never been an option; Peters, Taffe, Scott, etc., that has been what we've called "depth" in the past.

Not to mention solid goalscoring vets and promising youth.

 

[Avder]

This is the best Wild team ever.

Unfortunately were playing in one of the best divisions ever.

Can anyone think of a division that's more stacked than this years Norris?

 

[rynryn]

it's going to be USA, China, and Russia smoking each other then when they're all exhausted France steps in and smacks the crap out of the victor.

 

[Minnesota]

it's going to be USA, China, and Russia smoking each other then when they're all exhausted France steps in and smacks the crap out of the victor.

Your 2014-15 Stanley Cup Champions are the Winnipeg Jets?!

 

[rynryn]

Your 2014-15 Stanley Cup Champions are the Winnipeg Jets?!

you will look like a genius if that works out. bookmark it.

 

[TaLoN]

I think it's more than the best Wild team in years, it's the best Wild team ever. Personally, I'll be disappointed if they don't make it to at least the second round of the playoffs. Nothing is a given, but the talent is there.

The Avs, on the other hand, could be a huge surprise in either direction. If nothing else, MacKinnon has the potential for a monster second season. He's a game changer.

Best Wild team ever... but considering in the first round we could face the Blues or the Hawks... making it to the 2nd round isn't a given.

This division is SO DAMN TOUGH!