2013-14 Minnesota Wild Discussion

[Dampland]

Heading back out of the Olympic break, Minnesota sits comfortably in 7th place. However, Dallas and Phoenix are only 5 points behind, so hopefully not a lot of compliancy. The question though is why? And how? How is it that Colorado has jumped ahead of the Wild after a few years of rebuilding? How is it that after five years of waiting the Wild are still stuck in mediocrity? Why is it that the Wild struggle with consistency and goals? This isn't just a Yeo issue. Richards had the same problem as well.

Having the 1st, 2nd and 3rd OVERALL top picks in a 5 year span, tends to help a team rebound. A luxury the Wild have never had, as they just don't tank like CoLOLorado did in those draft years.

 

[Dee Oh Cee]

Yeah, it's really not that hard to figure out. No real mystery there.

 

[MuckOG]

Heading back out of the Olympic break, Minnesota sits comfortably in 7th place. However, Dallas and Phoenix are only 5 points behind, so hopefully not a lot of compliancy. The question though is why? And how? How is it that Colorado has jumped ahead of the Wild after a few years of rebuilding? How is it that after five years of waiting the Wild are still stuck in mediocrity? Why is it that the Wild struggle with consistency and goals? This isn't just a Yeo issue. Richards had the same problem as well.

C'mon TSK, you know the answer to this question is pretty obvious.

 

[thestonedkoala]

C'mon TSK, you know the answer to this question is pretty obvious.

Edmonton and New York both have had more top picks and still suck. MacKinnon has been great for Colorado, no doubt and so has Landskog and Duchene but they have little in the way of defense. It's amazing that a team can pick one player and simply go from the worst to playoff contention.

Not to mention, it isn't like they had consecutive top three picks.

How is it that they have been getting more from their second round picks then Minnesota? Ryan O'Reilly, Tyson Barrie, Paul Stastny...

 

[Billy Mays Here*]

Dat Roy rage, that's why.

 

[MuckOG]

Edmonton and New York both have had more top picks and still suck. MacKinnon has been great for Colorado, no doubt and so has Landskog and Duchene but they have little in the way of defense. It's amazing that a team can pick one player and simply go from the worst to playoff contention.

Not to mention, it isn't like they had consecutive top three picks.

How is it that they have been getting more from their second round picks then Minnesota? Ryan O'Reilly, Tyson Barrie, Paul Stastny...

Obviously having the picks they have had doesn't GUARANTEE success (as you've pointed out with Edmonton and NYI). But, in terms of being able to turn things around as quickly has they have, it certainly helps that they've had the opportunity to select players like Duchene, Landeskog and MacKinnon. When was the last time the Wild even had the OPPORTUNITY to draft a player in the top 3 of the 1st round? It's been 14 years.

And in addition to their fast start, Colorado has been very fortunate in the sense that they haven't had to deal with any injuries to their top players as well. So luck has been their ally, so far.

If you want to talk about 2nd and 3rd picks contributing, the Wild can point to Zucker, Hackett, and Larsson. Hacket and Larsson obviously turned into Pominville, which points favorably to those selections to be able to be used as assets to bring in an established player like JP. We also have other picks that are still developing in college, junior and the AHL level.

I still think Colorado's achilles heel will turn out to be their blueline.

 

[thestonedkoala]

Obviously having the picks they have had doesn't GUARANTEE success (as you've pointed out with Edmonton and NYI). But, in terms of being able to turn things around as quickly has they have, it certainly helps that they've had the opportunity to select players like Duchene, Landeskog and MacKinnon. When was the last time the Wild even had the OPPORTUNITY to draft a player in the top 3 of the 1st round? It's been 14 years.

It certainly does help but relying on young talent (like Minnesota has) can be a tricky thing to do. The fact that most on this board predicted Colorado to be a 6th or 7th place team in their division just shows that question. They were a young, inexperience team that needed time to gel. They are comfortably in 3rd place in the division and has a very young roster.

It's Minnesota own fault to not realize they weren't a playoff caliber team. We all have this weird fetish that tanking is bad but in truth? Tanking could be a huge boon for a team that has no chance to make the playoffs by selling assets and getting a better pick.

And in addition to their fast start, Colorado has been very fortunate in the sense that they haven't had to deal with any injuries to their top players as well. So luck has been their ally, so far.

Injuries have always been Minnesota's crutch for the past 5 years. One year is unfortunate, two years is worrisome but three years? four years? five years? That becomes a trend. This team has always, always had problems keeping their players on the ice. Maybe, you know, stop counting on guys that can't finish the season?

If you want to talk about 2nd and 3rd picks contributing, the Wild can point to Zucker, Hackett, and Larsson. Hacket and Larsson obviously turned into Pominville, which points favorably to those selections to be able to be used as assets to bring in an established player like JP. We also have other picks that are still developing in college, junior and the AHL level.

Zucker has not been contributing like Tyson Barrie, Ryan O'Reilly or Paul Stastny has. He hasn't even hit double digits for points. Those other picks? Who are they? Can they contribute now? Put up 40-50 points? Haula maybe but who else? And yes I know Hackett, Larsson turned into Poms but they also had to throw in a 1st and 2nd round pick.

I still think Colorado's achilles heel will turn out to be their blueline.

Yes, but Minnesota's Achilles heel will be goal scoring and injuries, something they have tried to address in the past 5 years. Why are we still a bubble team? Why is it that we are always on the cusp of not making the playoffs?

 

[rynryn]

tanking is idiotic from anyone's standpoint but a fans. it's too risky financially. wild only partially sucked and our attendance dropped. you want to be an owner sitting around diddling yourself for four years of empty arenas in the HOPE (not guarantee) that your team springs out of it a quasi-dynasty? it's just stupid.

 

[Minnesota]

Fetish against tanking? That's a weird way to describe it.

Realistically, I don't think tanking exists on the professional level; the players have too much pride.

 

[TZM]

I'd like to think it's unintentional tanking. You notice your team doesn't do well and your motivation drops, hence getting worse results and a higher draft pick.

 

[Minnesota]

I'd like to think it's unintentional tanking. You notice your team doesn't do well and your motivation drops, hence getting worse results and a higher draft pick.

I get what you're saying. I wouldn't even call it unintentional tanking; I'd call it having low morale, which is part of every sport.

 

[Northland Wild Man]

It just seems to me that it's all about when you tank and how hard you do it. I'm old enough (barely) to remember the Penguins doing it for Lemieux and the list goes on from there of teams who went to the bottom to get to the top. The Avs, Wings, Hawks, and Kings are all examples of this. I'm not saying they all intentionally tanked, but they all went to the bottom before getting great players.

 

[Sarge58]

I would never want our organization to tank on purpose. That could set in a losing atmosphere that could last a long time. Honestly I have no respect for the management of teams that seem to do so.

Look at Edmonton, their Stanley cup run consists of how big a tank job they can pull off to secure a top draft choice, and how they will go undefeated that year, and if they lose a few games in a row they will start clamoring for them to start the good ole tank job by November. Some "fans"are already looking forward to tanking next year. I'll never respect that organization nor their fans for the charade they've got going up there.

I'd hate for our fans and team to start to accept losing. Fletcher had a crap hand dealt to him from the beginning. He has imho done a remarkable job of walking a tightrope between urgency and patience.

Most 2nd,3rd etc. round players need time to toughen up and gain experience. With all the significant injuries the youngens did a pretty good job of holding up the fort. Shows the kind of job Fletch is doing. That's enough praising for awhile.

Trade Yeo, fire Mikko, replace Fletch as owner of the team,, something like that

 

[Dampland]

I believe that MANAGEMENT "tanks" more than the actual players.

They see the players in the draft, look at their record, their prospects, and contract situations, and they KNOW they are not going to be a Cup challenging team for a couple years, so they start trading off pieces for picks/prospects. This leads to a poorer skilled/less experienced team that has less chemistry, thus losing more games. Plus the coach is usually pressured into playing some young guy more ice time, and the team just starts heading downhill.

I don't think the locker room players think about "tanking", but would guess when they see what management is doing, and they get to the 65-70 game mark, and are already close to mathmatical elimination, that they just start looking to the next season, and kind of go into "auto-pilot" for the rest of the year. Thus a team that probably was going to finish draft 12th overall, thru trading away vets, and other changes, falls to drafting in the top 5.

Teams do it all the time. Edmonton, CoLOLorado, Chicago, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Tampa Bay, Panthers, etc. etc. have all done it. Too bad the Wild didn't do it a few times. All those years of drafting in the 10-20 slot, coupled with DR's ********* drafting, has set back the Wild at least a decade, from where it really should be.

 

[thestonedkoala]

tanking is idiotic from anyone's standpoint but a fans. it's too risky financially. wild only partially sucked and our attendance dropped. you want to be an owner sitting around diddling yourself for four years of empty arenas in the HOPE (not guarantee) that your team springs out of it a quasi-dynasty? it's just stupid.

Or do you want a mediocre team year in and out?

 

[Sarge58]

I believe that MANAGEMENT "tanks" more than the actual players.

They seem the players in the draft, look at their record, their prospects, and contract situations, and they KNOW they are not going to be a Cup challenging team for a couple years, so they start trading off pieces for picks/prospects. This leads to a poorer skilled/less experienced team that has less chemistry, thus losing more games. Plus the coach is usually pressured into playing some young guy more ice time, and the team just starts heading downhill.

I don't think the locker room players think about "tanking", but would guess when they see what management is doing, and they get to the 65-70 game mark, and are already close to mathmatical elimination, that they just start looking to the next season, and kind of go into "auto-pilot" for the rest of the year. Thus a team that probably was going to finish draft 12th overall, thru trading away vets, and other changes, falls to drafting in the top 5.

Teams do it all the time. Edmonton, CoLOLorado, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Tampa Bay, Panthers, etc. etc.

I agree, no competitive pro can be told to lose,,, its all on management and the ownership in quest for $$$.

Owners see dollar signs when within reach of a brand new shiny top level draft choice. Make up the plan with the GM, and he takes over from there. Some teams in 2015 will make it look so embarrassingly obvious they're in for the tank. Should humorous.

 

[Dampland]

My top "tanking teams" for the 2015 draft

1 Tampa Bay
2 Winnipeg
3 Washington (I think they trade Ovie for picks and prospects, and begin the rebuild.)
4 Columbus
5 Nashville

 

[AJ Thelen]

My top "tanking teams" for the 2015 draft

1 Tampa Bay
2 Winnipeg
3 Washington (I think they trade Ovie for picks and prospects, and begin the rebuild.)
4 Columbus
5 Nashville

Not a chance.

And as for Connor McDavid.. He ends up in EDM...

 

[Dampland]

Not a chance.

And as for Connor McDavid.. He ends up in EDM...

If Edmonton gets the top pick in 2015, then the league should make a provision that the Oilers are INeligible for the playoffs for 10 years.

It should be illegal to tank year after year for the #1 pick, and then after amassing a half dozen top picks, decide it is time to start winning and create a dynasty.

How could a person (as an Oilers fan) even hold their head up with pride, knowing that the only reason the team got good, was that it cheated its way to tons of top players.

 

[Caior89]

My top "tanking teams" for the 2015 draft

1 Tampa Bay
2 Winnipeg
3 Washington (I think they trade Ovie for picks and prospects, and begin the rebuild.)
4 Columbus
5 Nashville

Why Tampa?

 

[rynryn]

Or do you want a mediocre team year in and out?

i would rather have a team that tries if there is any possibility of success--and there was--rather than lose on purpose. can't imagine players would be fond of signing with a team that was doing this on purpose either. I thought the approach Fletcher took was a near optimal balance--acquire and keep as many prospects as possible while maintaining a solid veteran presence. I doubt very much guys like Parise and Suter would have signed here had they thought we were sandbagging the previous couple years or that there was any chance we'd continue to sandbag for a year or two post-signing.

 

[rynryn]

I believe that MANAGEMENT "tanks" more than the actual players.

They see the players in the draft, look at their record, their prospects, and contract situations, and they KNOW they are not going to be a Cup challenging team for a couple years, so they start trading off pieces for picks/prospects. This leads to a poorer skilled/less experienced team that has less chemistry, thus losing more games. Plus the coach is usually pressured into playing some young guy more ice time, and the team just starts heading downhill.

I don't think the locker room players think about "tanking", but would guess when they see what management is doing, and they get to the 65-70 game mark, and are already close to mathmatical elimination, that they just start looking to the next season, and kind of go into "auto-pilot" for the rest of the year. Thus a team that probably was going to finish draft 12th overall, thru trading away vets, and other changes, falls to drafting in the top 5.

Teams do it all the time. Edmonton, CoLOLorado, Chicago, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Tampa Bay, Panthers, etc. etc. have all done it. Too bad the Wild didn't do it a few times. All those years of drafting in the 10-20 slot, coupled with DR's ********* drafting, has set back the Wild at least a decade, from where it really should be.

how many years in the Fletcher era have we been mathematically eliminated from the playoffs? Its welfare state mentality. I'm not going to work at it when if i sit around someone will just give it to me for free. maybe i'll trade someone that milk money for lotto tickets and end up a millionaire!

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

It's a little annoying when you win games after you've been mathematically eliminated, but that's as far as I'll go. Didn't we have a shot at Galchenyuk but won some games in late March/April with half our AHL team? That kind of sucked.

 

[Bookman]

Tanking is different from just sucking. Tanking implies rolling over and losing on purpose.

Examples of actual tanking are probably quite rare.

Examples of just sucking are plentiful. Look at the Twins. Have they been tanking the last 3 years? No, they just stink.

But as a result of that they got Buxton, Stewart, and likely another fine prospect come this draft. Buxton alone looks like he is going to have a huge positive impact on their club, much like a Landeskog or MacKinnon for the Avs.

The Wild have never stunk it up to the point of getting those game changing players. Pouliot was their best chance at that, and it didn't work out.

 

[MuckOG]

Tanking is different from just sucking. Tanking implies rolling over and losing on purpose.

Examples of actual tanking are probably quite rare.

Examples of just sucking are plentiful. Look at the Twins. Have they been tanking the last 3 years? No, they just stink.

But as a result of that they got Buxton, Stewart, and likely another fine prospect come this draft. Buxton alone looks like he is going to have a huge positive impact on their club, much like a Landeskog or MacKinnon for the Avs.

The Wild have never stunk it up to the point of getting those game changing players. Pouliot was their best chance at that, and it didn't work out.

...and on top of all that, you still need the ping pong ball to drop right for you. The Wild have been very unlucky in that regard.