2006 Draft

[ProgOg]

I love Toews, but it's kinda hard to really assess him, in my opinion. He is undoubtedly better than J.Staal, but damn, does Staal have size and weight on him (which can be kind of important if you look at the linemates Staal had in 07-09, and the role he had).

Also, if he is the 3rd line center, does he really get that much more value back than Staal (if he also gets traded )? Lots of Toews' value comes from being the captain of a winning team - and he wouldn't be the captain with the Penguins.

And to go further with the speculation: Malkin and Crosby fit so well on one team because Malkin doesn't need/want to be in that official leadership role (internally I think he does his part). Now, since someone mentioned Messier: see Vancouver/Linden for how that can turn out badly as well.

Also why I find him hard to assess:
he has played with with Hossa before they even won their 1st cup, a player that deserves the Selke so much, and multiple times, too. (And in my opinion, more so than Toews).

Toews is (probably) the best player in that draft, though.
Just seems like a very complex situation. Probably too complex to really judge.

 

[Woodrow]

Just going over the 06 draft, Pens had such a great oppurtunity to stock up on forwards but nope. D, D and more D.

That 06 draft is a good lesson on why teams should avoid drafting dmen in the first round. 9 dmen drafted in the 1st round and only 1 of them (Erik Johnson) has played more than 50 games in the NHL and 3 have 0 NHL games played.

 

[Jonjmc]

They did. I'll spend some time tomorrow trying to dig up the videos. There was one of Pompeani reporting it on the news. There was another of George McPhee on the phone with Shero discussing it.

You are thinking of Jack Johnson, not Shea Weber.

 

[ProgOg]

You are thinking of Jack Johnson, not Shea Weber.

Well... now that are two names that don't belong in the same sentence.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

You are thinking of Jack Johnson, not Shea Weber.

No. I'm not.

Now if only I could find those videos I was talking about...

Edit number 1:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=49357695&postcount=676



Edit number 2: Apparently the McPhee video was about the Jack Johnson offer. I was still thinking about the Pompeani and Weber video though.

 

[Malkin Mania LXXI]

No. I'm not.

Now if only I could find those videos I was talking about...

Edit number 1:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=49357695&postcount=676



Edit number 2: Apparently the McPhee video was about the Jack Johnson offer. I was still thinking about the Pompeani and Weber video though.

The video didnt work

 

[penguins2946*]

We won a Cup with Staal but the argument can go either way. We may have won more Cups with Toews on this team instead of Staal.

Toews is definitely the guy to pick. I don't know where he would have fit in but the guy is a winner. He really could have been Sid's Messier.

We don't know if we would have won the cup without Staal though. I'd take the 1 guaranteed over what could have happened. We also don't know if Toews would have progressed like he did if he was playing 3rd line center in Pittsburgh, Staal might have ended up the better player in that situation.

 

[systemsgo]

I'll take Toews. Failing that, Giroux.

 

[Your Boy Troy]

I do not have a problem with Jordan Staal being selected. However, that piece of garbage name Carl Sneep will always haunt me.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

why would we have won more cups with a guy that always chokes on the finals?

Jonathan Toews: 8 points in 12 Finals games.
Sidney Crosby: 9 points in 13 Finals games.

Yep, this.


And to be clear, you said that on draft day. So you aren't even using hindsight. You had the foresight with that one.

Being a Manitoba boy may have made me a tad biased, but he seemed to have the best balance of smarts, size, offense, defense, and versatility in the group of 4 that followed EJ.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

We got a cup with Staal, and may not have won that cup if not for Staal. I'll take that over what could have happened with Toews or Kessel.

This line of argument falls short, though, because you can just insert any name from that 2009 Cup winner and argue they don't win a Cup without that player, even if superior options are available.

"We got a Cup with Fleury, so I wouldn't trade him for Quick/Lundqvist because there's no guarantee we win with them"

"We got a Cup with Max Talbot, so I wouldn't have dealt him straight up for Corey Perry because there's no guarantee we win without Max's Game 7 heroics".

Etc.

Was Staal a "bad" pick? No, he was a quality player that did contribute to a winning team. But in retrospect, was Staal the "best" pick? I'd say not even close. Toews is the better center, and if we're looking at long-term fit for this club, Kessel could have been that winger we've been looking for for Sid since forever.

 

[The Old Master]

wanted to pick kessel, but [was-would of been] happy with any of them. ....at the time a case could of been made for any of the top picks.

 

[penguins2946*]

This line of argument falls short, though, because you can just insert any name from that 2009 Cup winner and argue they don't win a Cup without that player, even if superior options are available.

"We got a Cup with Fleury, so I wouldn't trade him for Quick/Lundqvist because there's no guarantee we win with them"

"We got a Cup with Max Talbot, so I wouldn't have dealt him straight up for Corey Perry because there's no guarantee we win without Max's Game 7 heroics".

Etc.

Was Staal a "bad" pick? No, he was a quality player that did contribute to a winning team. But in retrospect, was Staal the "best" pick? I'd say not even close. Toews is the better center, and if we're looking at long-term fit for this club, Kessel could have been that winger we've been looking for for Sid since forever.

Staal had a big impact in the finals, specifically with the shorthanded goal in game 6. Would Toews have been the better pick? Yeah. Would we have been a better team with Toews? Yes. Would we definitely have won either the same amount of more cups? No one knows. I would rather just take the 1 we have instead of trading it for potential more or less.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

A bigger concern for me is that Staal was the only impact forward Shero ever drafted in his almost-decade tenure with the Pens. That, more than selecting Staal over Toews/Kessel, is the biggest issue.

 

[penguins2946*]

A bigger concern for me is that Staal was the only impact forward Shero ever drafted in his almost-decade tenure with the Pens. That, more than selecting Staal over Toews/Kessel, is the biggest issue.

Yeah that's definitely a big issue. Luckily, Sundqvist and Bennett look like they will have a solid chance at becoming impact top-9 players, and a lot of our college prospects have had good college careers.

 

[lastcupever75]

This line of argument falls short, though, because you can just insert any name from that 2009 Cup winner and argue they don't win a Cup without that player, even if superior options are available.

"We got a Cup with Fleury, so I wouldn't trade him for Quick/Lundqvist because there's no guarantee we win with them"

"We got a Cup with Max Talbot, so I wouldn't have dealt him straight up for Corey Perry because there's no guarantee we win without Max's Game 7 heroics".

yeah, i dont really get that line of thinking

 

[66-30-33]

Staal had a big impact in the finals, specifically with the shorthanded goal in game 6. Would Toews have been the better pick? Yeah. Would we have been a better team with Toews? Yes. Would we definitely have won either the same amount of more cups? No one knows. I would rather just take the 1 we have instead of trading it for potential more or less.

Yep. I'll take a guaranteed cup over a possible chance anyday of the week.

 

[66-30-33]

This line of argument falls short, though, because you can just insert any name from that 2009 Cup winner and argue they don't win a Cup without that player, even if superior options are available.

"We got a Cup with Fleury, so I wouldn't trade him for Quick/Lundqvist because there's no guarantee we win with them"

"We got a Cup with Max Talbot, so I wouldn't have dealt him straight up for Corey Perry because there's no guarantee we win without Max's Game 7 heroics".

Etc.

Was Staal a "bad" pick? No, he was a quality player that did contribute to a winning team. But in retrospect, was Staal the "best" pick? I'd say not even close. Toews is the better center, and if we're looking at long-term fit for this club, Kessel could have been that winger we've been looking for for Sid since forever.

What do those guys have anything to do with drafting Staal over the other guys? you can easily say that for anyone. This is about drafting Staal 2nd overall, not swapping Fleury for elite goalies, or Talbot for the best goal scoring pest. Pens have no chance at getting those guys at all, Pens had a chance drafting Toews, Kessel, Backstrom, etc but took Staal and won a cup and made it to the finals the year before and he was a key guy both times. I'll take an Certainty over an Uncertainty every day. It's not saying they are better, but it's about what we have already got.

 

[td_ice]

What do those guys have anything to do with drafting Staal over the other guys? you can easily say that for anyone. This is about drafting Staal 2nd overall, not swapping Fleury for elite goalies, or Talbot for the best goal scoring pest. Pens have no chance at getting those guys at all, Pens had a chance drafting Toews, Kessel, Backstrom, etc but took Staal and won a cup and made it to the finals the year before and he was a key guy both times. I'll take an Certainty over an Uncertainty every day. It's not saying they are better, but it's about what we have already got.

His point is you take the better player every time.

There is a reason that they are the better players. And no reason to believe better players could not have added their own piece to a Stanley Cup winning puzzle. And possibly helped us achieve more. And no, there are no guarantees. You are right.

 

[Kiith Nabaal]

I am fine with the Staal pick. We wouldn't have been able to keep Kessel, or Towes, or whoever else beyond an ELC because they would likely leave somewhere else for more money anyway. Even if they stayed, it would hurt our depth so much, and people already complained a bit about being too top 6 heavy in the past. It doesn't look like you win cups with just your top six, so I am not too worried about it.

In hindsight, I think where they dropped the ball was the second round. We could have gotten Lucic, Kulemin, or McGinn for nothing (because Sneep didn't go anywhere anyway). So if I had to re-do the draft, I would have done round two differently. You could still get one of Crosby or Malkin a decent winger without forfeiting Staal.

 

[Son Goku]

Oh look, the annual Jonathan Toews circle jerk thread

 

[Malkin Mania LXXI]

I am fine with the Staal pick. We wouldn't have been able to keep Kessel, or Towes, or whoever else beyond an ELC because they would likely leave somewhere else for more money anyway. Even if they stayed, it would hurt our depth so much, and people already complained a bit about being too top 6 heavy in the past. It doesn't look like you win cups with just your top six, so I am not too worried about it.

In hindsight, I think where they dropped the ball was the second round. We could have gottenLucic, Kulemin, or McGinn for nothing (because Sneep didn't go anywhere anyway). So if I had to re-do the draft, I would have done round two differently. You could still get one of Crosby or Malkin a decent winger without forfeiting Staal.

We did draft him 50th overall, correct?

 

[Malkin Mania LXXI]

Oh look, the annual Jonathan Toews circle jerk thread

This was suppose to be a Staal/ Kessel thread but....

 

[KIRK]

I do not have a problem with Jordan Staal being selected. However, that piece of garbage name Carl Sneep will always haunt me.

Sneep or Lucic (even Kulemin)

Strait or Marchand

****, it's not fair to do hindsight, but imagine if we'd have gotten Boston's first three rounds . . . Kessel, Lucic, Marchand.

 

[The Tang]

Sneep or Lucic (even Kulemin)

Strait or Marchand

****, it's not fair to do hindsight, but imagine if we'd have gotten Boston's first three rounds . . . Kessel, Lucic, Marchand.

Hind sight is 20/20, but the number of dmen we drafted was excessive