1996-97 Philadelphia Flyers

[MuzikMachine]

I thought it was going to be a longer series, and when Detroit won I thought we'd see the Flyers in the finals within the next season or 2 - neither happened. It would have been interesting to see what would happened during the Lindros era if the Flyers had a top end goaltender; maybe they could have been the Eastern Conference version of the Dallas Stars.

 

[Hobnobs]

Having a fighter as good, and as crazy, as Simon, is a nice weapon to have in your arsenal when the other team wants to exact "revenge", dontcha think? There was no fighter left on that Avs team after the loss of Simon (and Rychel) that was a better fighter than either McCarty or Shanahan . Yes the RWs had beaten teams w/ better enforcers, but a team that was essentially their equal in every way but toughness? Nope. That's a big hole in the Avs lineup in 97. Foote and Deadmarsh were tough players, but good fighters? OK at best and neither was feared like Simon. And it's what allowed the Red Wings to manhandle the Avs both in the brawl game and to a lesser extent the Conference Finals. That brawl game probably still happens, but is it considered as decisive if Simon grabs and mauls one of the RWs non-fighters like McCarty and Shanahan did w/ the Avs? (I'd also add if the refs had done their jobs and tossed McCarty from the game, as should have happened. No way he should have been there to score the game winner.)

Its funny when you say none fighters while Corbet had fought more times that season than Shanahan did. Corbet acted very tough that game until Shanny grabbed him.

Lemieux and Corbet were hardly some soft little innocent guys who were just jumped by goons. Avs also proved that they could very much play without goons (just like DRW) when they finally got rid of that dead weight in 01.

Too bad that rivalry died so quickly tho. Did you know that in last game of the 00 season they actually played an entire game without a single penlty minute being handed out.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Larry Murphy got a lot of credit for the entire series at the time (he was +10 in four games!), but it seems like people prefer the narrative being that Nicklas Lidstrom was the show-stealer.

The "narrative" exists because Lidstrom was the clear leader of the pairing at both ends of the ice, but no, he didn't do it alone.

A lot of the praise Murphy got was of the "exceeded expectations" type for a guy who was never that stellar defensively (previously) and who was just coming off a disastrous stint in Toronto

 

[GKJ]

That was the year the Flyers sued WIP and got Craig Carton fired for making allegations that Lindros was scratched from a game because he was hung over.

God, I completely removed that from my memory. The story was apparently true, as well, I think both Clarke and Snider acknowledged as much, but it was years later. Might have been the last time I've heard Craig Carton's name.

The Devils were definitely the boogeyman. These days, Flyers fans get excited for a Penguins game as our biggest rival. Back then, the Devils were our biggest rival, and we dreaded having to play those games. I think John MacLean slashed Niklas Sundstrom and broke his arm, and wasn't suspended. Couldn't imagine what the reaction would be if HF Boards was around back then.

The Red Wings completely owning the Flyers was a complete shock to everyone around here. This town, and otherwise definitely saw the Red Wings as just the last team to be left in our wake. As but a kid, I felt the same way. Many people felt the series against the Rangers was the real finals. The fact that the Flyers not only lost, but got swept themselves blindsided everybody here.

 

[quoipourquoi]

The "narrative" exists because Lidstrom was the clear leader of the pairing at both ends of the ice, but no, he didn't do it alone.

A lot of the praise Murphy got was of the "exceeded expectations" type for a guy who was never that stellar defensively (previously) and who was just coming off a disastrous stint in Toronto

Lidstrom had a single point in the Finals. How exactly was he the clear leader of the pairing in the offensive zone in that series too?

In a thousand game stories and columns this season, "lead-footed" has preceded Murphy's name, yet at the end of the first period he caught Flyers winger John Druce from behind on a partial breakaway. His mobility has been compared to a pylon, yet midway in the second period he not only set up Sergei Fedorov for a two-on-one but joined him on said break, which produced the winning goal.

Murphy made his appearance on that rush sound like an accident, not calculation. "The puck came behind the net and I just shot it around," he said. "Our forward was going to the point and [there was] a big jam-up. I was just following the play out and the puck popped loose. I saw Sergei and chipped it up to him. I had enough momentum to step around a couple of guys and turn it into a two-on-one."

One of those fellows caught in the jam-up and stepped around by the formerly finished Murphy was none other than mercurial Paul Coffey, the fellow whose departure from Detroit led tortuously to Murphy's renaissance with the Wings.

"Larry has just [played] better and better," Bowman said after Game 1. "He's playing like he did when we were in Pittsburgh. He gives you that offence. When we traded Paul Coffey we lost a lot offensively. It took us all year to try to get some back."

Most of the press praising Nicklas Lidstrom individually for his work in the 1997 Finals was from throughout the 1997-98 season when he was in the Norris argument. But during the actual series? I don't think he was quite the household name you say he was, because most of the talk about the pairing seemed to be about Larry Murphy, the 1st Star of Game 1.

So, yes, I think the story of Nicklas Lidstrom being the singular hero of the 1997 Finals was a narrative that was created later rather than at the time.

 

[tony d]

I don't remember much about that series and who was favoured still Detroit came out as a great playoff team that year and ended up winning the Cup.

 

[DaveG]

I remember quite a few pundits picking Philadelphia, but I have to wonder how much of that was due to Detroit's inability to break through to that point.

It would be like if San Jose made the SCF at any point in the last three years; they'd have been the underdog simply because of their reputation for coming up small when they needed to step up.

I think there's a lot to be said for that. Detroit had been on the scene since 92 or so and hadn't really put it all together as a team yet. The equivalent would have been if the 12-13 Sharks had beaten LA and then Chicago only to have to face the Bruins in the final (which is exactly what would have happened). After the choke jobs that the Sharks had pulled in the past, notably after the 2010 sweep by the Hawks, with that core would anyone but a Sharks homer really pick them to come out of that matchup with the Cup?

 

[double5son10]

Its funny when you say none fighters while Corbet had fought more times that season than Shanahan did. Corbet acted very tough that game until Shanny grabbed him.

Lemieux and Corbet were hardly some soft little innocent guys who were just jumped by goons. Avs also proved that they could very much play without goons (just like DRW) when they finally got rid of that dead weight in 01.

Too bad that rivalry died so quickly tho. Did you know that in last game of the 00 season they actually played an entire game without a single penlty minute being handed out.

Until they met both Corbet and Shanahan had 7 fighting majors that season, but so what? You gonna try and compare someone who was a known heavy-weight, 22nd all-time in career PIM, who had already fought Probert and McSorley that year w/ a rookie lightweight trying to make bones, someone whose biggest win in a fight for his career is over Patrick Traverse? Um, ok, sure. Did anyone say Lemieux and Corbet were "soft little innocent guys"? Nope, didn't think so. They're tough players, to be sure, but good fighters? Hardly. Did I call McCarty and Shanahan goons? No on that count either. But were they legitimate heavies? Absolutely. I think you're missing my point entirely. That brawl game was advantage DRW because when push came to shove there was no one on the Avs who could match DRWs heavies. No one. Foote and Deadmarsh were tough as they come. They were hardly great fighters. Simon would've changed that dynamic. Think of a theoretical situation where Simon's still in an Avs jersey and jumps Kirk Maltby. Maltby's not a "soft little innocent guy" either. But he isn't going to do well now is he? As for 2001, no idea what you're talking about. Avs had Parker and Dingman. And yes, I remember the penalty-less game. Immaterial to a discussion on the revenge game, but whatever.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Most of the press praising Nicklas Lidstrom individually for his work in the 1997 Finals was from throughout the 1997-98 season when he was in the Norris argument. But during the actual series? I don't think he was quite the household name you say he was, because most of the talk about the pairing seemed to be about Larry Murphy, the 1st Star of Game 1.

So, yes, I think the story of Nicklas Lidstrom being the singular hero of the 1997 Finals was a narrative that was created later rather than at the time.

1997 Lidstrom gets taller every year, too.

Still, he was a big part of what was a successful team wide effort to shut down the vital part of what was essentially a one-line Flyers team.

 

[Hobnobs]

Until they met both Corbet and Shanahan had 7 fighting majors that season, but so what? You gonna try and compare someone who was a known heavy-weight, 22nd all-time in career PIM, who had already fought Probert and McSorley that year w/ a rookie lightweight trying to make bones, someone whose biggest win in a fight for his career is over Patrick Traverse? Um, ok, sure. Did anyone say Lemieux and Corbet were "soft little innocent guys"? Nope, didn't think so. They're tough players, to be sure, but good fighters? Hardly. Did I call McCarty and Shanahan goons? No on that count either. But were they legitimate heavies? Absolutely. I think you're missing my point entirely. That brawl game was advantage DRW because when push came to shove there was no one on the Avs who could match DRWs heavies. No one. Foote and Deadmarsh were tough as they come. They were hardly great fighters. Simon would've changed that dynamic. Think of a theoretical situation where Simon's still in an Avs jersey and jumps Kirk Maltby. Maltby's not a "soft little innocent guy" either. But he isn't going to do well now is he? As for 2001, no idea what you're talking about. Avs had Parker and Dingman. And yes, I remember the penalty-less game. Immaterial to a discussion on the revenge game, but whatever.

Well you wrote Simon jumping one of wings none-fighters so I thouht you meant he was going to goon it up with someone like Lidström or Yzerman. I dont think it wouldve mattered much if Simon jumped Maltby. Actually when teams tried to go after Wings players is when they lost (Blues and Hawks).

Parker played zero minutes in the playoffs. Dingman did play, you're right about that. Because he was a better player than pure goon Parker. But if you are telling me that Dingman was some sort of game changer that Avs missed since Simon Ill just say Ill disagree.

I was just reminiscing. Drop the attitude just because I disagree with you.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Lidstrom had a single point in the Finals. How exactly was he the clear leader of the pairing in the offensive zone in that series too?

The clear leader of the pairing overall that season, not just in the finals.

He obviously took a much more defensive role than usual during that series.

 

[danincanada]

Most of the press praising Nicklas Lidstrom individually for his work in the 1997 Finals was from throughout the 1997-98 season when he was in the Norris argument. But during the actual series? I don't think he was quite the household name you say he was, because most of the talk about the pairing seemed to be about Larry Murphy, the 1st Star of Game 1.

So, yes, I think the story of Nicklas Lidstrom being the singular hero of the 1997 Finals was a narrative that was created later rather than at the time.

Who has ever stated he was the singular hero of those finals? People did take note of how Bowman used him and how great he was defensively, and both came as surprises to most. Fedorov was probably the best player in those finals, with 6 points in 4 games, and should have won the CS. You should be heaping praise on him instead of Murphy.

Go back and watch the series and you will notice that Bowman did his best to have Lidstrom on the ice against Lindros and he would usually have his RHS partner Murphy there, except during some PKs or at key times in the game when trying to protect the lead when he'd have another RHS in Konstantinov on the ice instead. Lidstrom was a +6 in the series and Lindros was a -5, which is very telling. Murphy was a +10 because he wasn't always facing Lindros. Konstantinov was the only Red Wing who was a negative player at -1. He seemed to be on the ice with Lidstrom whenever Lindros' line scored.

 

[c9777666]

Thread Bump

Given what we know about Hextall/Snow, how were they even able to get to the Cup Finals in the first place with two shaky goalies?

You'd think this issue would have bubbled up in the East playoffs, but somehow it didn't. Was the Legion of Doom THAT overpowering? Did the blueliners simply do a better job against non-DET teams?

In spite of Hextall/Snow, they were 12-3 leading up to the 97 Finals and two of the losses came when they were already leading 3-0 twice.

 

[ShelbyZ]

And I always wonder what would of happened if Crawford hadn't forced Lacroix to trade Simon. Hard to imagine McCarty cold-cocking Lemieux and Shanahan bouncing Rene Corbet's head on the ice w/out Chief tearing some Detroit players head off. Brent Severyn was a poor replacement as the Avs enforcer.

I've wondered about something similar with that game, except it revolves around how much crazier it might've gotten if Bowman had waited one more game to give Mike Knuble a look at the NHL level and instead kept Joey Kocur in the line up....

 

[ted2019]

Thread Bump

Given what we know about Hextall/Snow, how were they even able to get to the Cup Finals in the first place with two shaky goalies?

You'd think this issue would have bubbled up in the East playoffs, but somehow it didn't. Was the Legion of Doom THAT overpowering? Did the blueliners simply do a better job against non-DET teams?

In spite of Hextall/Snow, they were 12-3 leading up to the 97 Finals and two of the losses came when they were already leading 3-0 twice.

The Lindros line was simply that good. The addition of Dale Hawerchuk helped with depth and at times, Brind'Amour & Hawerchuk would play with Lindros & LeClair to give them a different look. Everything else happened to just gel at the time and you had a team that was going to the Finals.

 

[danincanada]

I've wondered about something similar with that game, except it revolves around how much crazier it might've gotten if Bowman had waited one more game to give Mike Knuble a look at the NHL level and instead kept Joey Kocur in the line up....

All these years and that has never even occurred to me. I know it was Knuble's first game (what a wild introduction to the NHL) but forgot about Kocur not even dressing for it. Might have been better without him cause maybe he's causing brain damage to someone if he's in that game. He wasn't as mean by then but those hammers he called fists were still trouble.

 

[ShelbyZ]

All these years and that has never even occurred to me. I know it was Knuble's first game (what a wild introduction to the NHL) but forgot about Kocur not even dressing for it. Might have been better without him cause maybe he's causing brain damage to someone if he's in that game. He wasn't as mean by then but those hammers he called fists were still trouble.

At the same time, let's say Kocur is dressed and in the more subdued nature of his 2nd tour (which apparently was at the behest of Bowman) and does his best to keep his nose clean. How much more do guys like Shanahan, McCarty, Lapointe, Maltby etc. try to push the envelope knowing Kocur can come over the boards if needed?

And even though Kocur wasn't as nasty then, he could still flip the switch when necessary. I can't seem to ever forget when he attacked Eric Messier when the Avs started to run around at the end of game 4 of 97 WCF, or a game against the Stars (who were arguably a secondary rival for the Wings and Avs at the time) early in 98/99 where Dan Keczmer elbows Yzerman in the head and Kocur goes to work mixing it up with half the Stars team and even Belfour and delivers gloved sucker punches to obviously Keczmer, as well Langenbrunner and Ludwig.

I tried to see what kind of history Simon and Kocur had, but instead stumbled upon an article where Kocur basically has the same sentiments as @double5son10 : Colorado Avalanche Hockey News: The Denver Post Online

Forsberg unlikely to play
By Adrian Dater
Denver Post Sports Writer
May 24 - It has become an all-too-common occurrence for the Colorado Avalanche this season, especially in the playoffs.
Peter Forsberg is unlikely to play for the Avs tonight in Game 5 of the Western Conference finals against the Detroit Red Wings.
He probably won't play because of yet another hard hit from an opponent - in this case, a charley horse to the right thigh from a check by Detroit's Kris Draper in Game 4.
If Forsberg doesn't play, it will be his third missed game of the postseason. He missed two games in the Edmonton series because of a concussion, and 17 in the regular season after a hard hit to the left thigh from Calgary's Todd Simpson.
The question has raged all season: Is there a connection between Forsberg's health problems this year and the departure of enforcers Chris Simon and Warren Rychel from last year's championship team?
Detroit tough guy Joey Kocur, for one, said there is.
"That wouldn't have happened with Simon around," Kocur said. "I think they probably miss Simon." Kocur, a 14-year NHL veteran, lent support to the belief that Colorado hurt itself greatly by not providing stars Forsberg and Joe Sakic with enough protection on the ice after Simon and Rychel left.
"It's not that Simon would have gone out and fought (in the playoffs), but he also calms the other team down when you know he could possibly do it," said Kocur, who started the season 14th on the all-time NHL penalty-minutes list with 2,270.
Coincidence or not, the Avs did not stay as healthy without Simon this season as they had the previous two with him. Forsberg, for example, missed just one game his first two years in the league. Sakic missed just one.
But the injuries piled up this year, and some wonder whether Forsberg's drop in production in the Detroit series (one point) isn't because of the Red Wings' defense. The Swedish star has taken a lot of hard hits - not just in the Detroit series, but all season.
Even Forsberg's father, Kent, has been irritated by the amount of punishment his son has endured.
"It's getting very disgusting when you see what is happening on the ice," Kent Forsberg said. "It isn't hockey." Father Forsberg was critical of the officiating this season, saying that has led to an increase in injuries. He said things got too far out of hand in the third period of Game 4 on Thursday in Detroit, the period in which his son was injured.
"When the referees don't grab the game by their own hands, (players) take the law into their own hands," said Forsberg, the coach of the Swedish National Team.
The trading of Simon (along with defenseman Curtis Leschyshyn) to Washington was anything but a disaster for the Avs. Keith Jones added toughness and scoring around the net, but he was lost to a torn knee ligament in the first round. Colorado also gets the Capitals' first-round pick in next year's draft.
"But I was totally shocked when they traded Simon," Kocur said.
The Avs actually made a run at acquiring Kocur midway through the season. Avs director of player development Michel Goulet called Kocur at home while the longtime enforcer was still a free agent.
"But things never finished up," Kocur said. "They said they'd get back to me, but (didn't)." Kocur was picked up by Detroit instead. Now the Avs are one loss from being eliminated by the Wings. Part of the reason Detroit is turning the table on the Avs this year is because it got bigger and tougher, and is injury-free.
The Avs, meanwhile, likely will have to make do without perhaps the NHL's best all-around player.

Crazy to think Kocur could've been on the Avalanche too...

 

[Big Phil]

Here is a story about the 1997 Flyers. I was in Florida in March of 1997 and I talked with a guy at my resort I was staying in about hockey. He was from New Jersey and he knew his stuff. I was pleasantly surprised. He sort of teased me about the 1996 World Cup and we bantered back and forth about the upcoming 1998 Olympics and such. Anyway, he was a huge Flyers fan. Big time. We both agreed that the Cup final that seemed the most exciting was Colorado/Philly. This was a couple of weeks before Detroit really stepped up in that Bloody brawl game vs. Colorado. But we both agreed it was a collision course for a Flyers/Avs Cup final.

This guy loved that idea and he told me something that I have always taken with me since. He said, "Did you know that Patrick Roy has NEVER beaten the Flyers in his career?" He didn't count the 1989 playoffs, but he was just talking about the regular season. Well, not having the internet at our fingertips back then I took his word. Years later I looked it up, and if I recall Roy had a horrible record against Philly at that point in his career which is strange because he was always on good Habs teams and the Flyers were generally shaky. But he was right. I don't have the time to look it up, but if you ever do and can find out Roy's record against Philly up until March of 1997 then you will see it is very much out of place. Anyway, he wasn't sure why this was true other than maybe Roy didn't like the colour orange. But either way he was pretty excited about them meeting in the Cup final.

I told him I wasn't so sure though. I really liked the Avs as a team and I thought while Lindros was slightly better than Sakic and Forsberg that the Flyers just wouldn't be able to overcome that sort of firepower against them. To be honest, I took that same opinion with me in the playoffs and even when Philly had moved on and Detroit/Colorado were still playing against each other I just felt that the winner was going to be in the west because Philly had some glaring weaknesses outside of that Legion of Doom line and I was never sold on Lindros being "the guy" at that point.

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

Thread Bump

Given what we know about Hextall/Snow, how were they even able to get to the Cup Finals in the first place with two shaky goalies?

You'd think this issue would have bubbled up in the East playoffs, but somehow it didn't. Was the Legion of Doom THAT overpowering? Did the blueliners simply do a better job against non-DET teams?

In spite of Hextall/Snow, they were 12-3 leading up to the 97 Finals and two of the losses came when they were already leading 3-0 twice.

I looked up the game logs

Snow had the reins from the start of the playoffs until game 4 against Buffalo, he has a bad game, Hextall took over for an okay game to close out the Sabres, then Snow started the next two against the Rangers and had an awful game in game 2, getting pulled for Hextall. Overall he posted a 906 in the first 9 games he started, Hextall took over for the last 3 games against the Rangers, and put up a 912. Overall they had a 900 combined Sv % going into the finals, and combined they had a 860 in the finals against the Wings.

Hextall gave up a long goal to Yzerman in the first game, and Snow gave up two in the second that were similarly bad. Hextall seemed to be fighting the puck a little bit, situations where hes stabbing at the puck with his glove instead of catching it as he was often prone to doing. Both were pretty bad, but Ive always felt Hextall was at least ok in games 3 & 4, at that point the Wings were just eating the Flyers alive in the team game, but the first two were absolutely sunk by the goaltending.

Overall Bowmans strategy of using the left wing lock really paid off against a line like the Legion as a standard matchup with Leclair and Renberg against the defencemen and Lindros on one of Yzerman, Larionov, Fedorov would have been a mismatch.

It didnt seem to have any effect on the thinking of the league at the time, but the Wings seem like the clear-cut better skating team and the Flyers are often clearly just not able to keep up.

If theres a major X-factor I think its Murrays inability to use Coffey effectively, as he was 1-8-9/15 games with a +2 to that point, then goes -5 combined in the first two games of the final with no points and gets scratched from there on out.

 

[The Panther]

If theres a major X-factor I think its Murrays inability to use Coffey effectively, as he was 1-8-9/15 games with a +2 to that point, then goes -5 combined in the first two games of the final with no points and gets scratched from there on out.

Didn't know this! Was Coffey really scratched in games three and four?

 

[danincanada]

Didn't know this! Was Coffey really scratched in games three and four?

I think he was actually injured. From what I recall he took a hit from Shanahan and was wincing a lot. Forget if it was game 1 or game 2 but he was definitely banged up.

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

Didn't know this! Was Coffey really scratched in games three and four?

Hes not listed on the hockey reference game sheets:

Philadelphia Flyers at Detroit Red Wings Box Score — June 5, 1997 | Hockey-Reference.com
Philadelphia Flyers at Detroit Red Wings Box Score — June 7, 1997 | Hockey-Reference.com

 

[ShelbyZ]

IIRC, Coffey suffered a concussion in game 2, didn't accompany the team to Detroit for game 3, then was behind the bench in a nice looking blazer for game 4.

Also IIRC, that was the last season before the NHL limited teams to their HC and 2 assistants for coaches behind the bench. At the same time on the opposing bench, the Wings had Mike Krushelnyski as a 3rd assistant. A little over a year before that, it was even more crowded when Bowman would have Stu Grimson stand on the bench as an assistant coach for games where he wasn't in the line up during the 96 playoffs.

 

[quoipourquoi]

IIRC, Coffey suffered a concussion in game 2, didn't accompany the team to Detroit for game 3, then was behind the bench in a nice looking blazer for game 4.
View attachment 385340

Also IIRC, that was the last season before the NHL limited teams to their HC and 2 assistants for coaches behind the bench. At the same time on the opposing bench, the Wings had Mike Krushelnyski as a 3rd assistant. A little over a year before that, it was even more crowded when Bowman would have Stu Grimson stand on the bench as an assistant coach for games where he wasn't in the line up during the 96 playoffs.

Second concussion of the season too, which never goes well.

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

Second concussion of the season too, which never goes well.

Was it fully known at the time how serious a second and third concussion could be?