1992 Pittsburgh Penguins vs. 1997 Detroit Red Wings

[Stephen]

I like the idea of Scotty Bowman locked in a coaching duel against himself.

I prefer the Red Wings in this one. They were a skilled team that had been forged in the early Dead Puck Era and had plenty of championship juice left as evidenced by their 1998 and 2002 runs to come. I think you take a team with the battled hardened experience of playing the New Jersey Devils and Colorado Avalanche in the mid 90s and they come out on top.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

trying to create rosters, but there was a lot of line shuffling on those two teams, especially pittsburgh.

forwards

shanahan yzerman lapointe
kozlov fedorov brown
kocur draper maltby
mccarty larionov sandstrom —> not really a fourth line so much as a place to put guys who would move up/down and fill in elsewhere in the lineup

vs

stevens mario tocchet
[someone] francis jagr
loney trottier bourque
errey mceachern hrdina mullen/callander —> similar to detroit, these guys just moved around the lineup while mario, francis, and others double shifted

d

lidstrom murphy
fetisov konstantinov
rouse ward

roberts murphy
ulf samuelsson stanton
paek kjell samuelsson

g

vernon
osgood

barrasso
wregget

 

[buffalowing88]

Here is Lemieux broken down per series in the 1992 playoffs. Obviously he missed some time:

vs. Caps - 17 points in 6 games
vs. Rangers - 2 points in 2 games
vs. Bruins - 8 points in 3 games
vs. Hawks - 7 points in 4 games

So let's face it, you can't shut the guy down at this point in his career. The best you can do is contain him to an extent. The 1996 Panthers did this with 7 points in 7 games. The 1993 Isles allowed him to have 9 points in 6 games, and they lost that series. So at this point in his career no one was stopping him. For more resources you have 1991 to judge by.

vs. New Jersey - 8 points in 7 games
vs. Washington - 9 points in 5 games
vs. Boston - 14 points in 6 games
vs. Minnesota - 12 points in 5 games

So if Lindros can muster three points in a sweep in 1997, then a peak Mario would obviously do better. The question is, do the Pens have a better supporting cast than the 1997 Flyers? For sure they do. Better goaltending too. Probably at least as good of a defense as well. You have 6 players on the 1992 Pens who had at least 16 points. 4 who had 24 or more. That's a lot of options. Can a team like the Wings who had never won anything before beat a defending Cup champion team with peak Mario? I said no.

This. I just cannot overstate how dominant Lemieux could be and when you throw in the likes of Jagr, Coffey, Tocchet, Francis and Stevens as secondary scoring should Mario have a tough time plus the confidence of this team, I don't see them losing. Maybe the 98 Wings would have been more prepared to handle this kind of challenge, but not in 97.

 

[danincanada]

This. I just cannot overstate how dominant Lemieux could be and when you throw in the likes of Jagr, Coffey, Tocchet, Francis and Stevens as secondary scoring should Mario have a tough time plus the confidence of this team, I don't see them losing. Maybe the 98 Wings would have been more prepared to handle this kind of challenge, but not in 97.

The ‘97 team was definitely better for this than ‘98. Konstantinov was replaced with Anders Eriksson and Vernon played better than Osgood as well.

 

[danincanada]

trying to create rosters, but there was a lot of line shuffling on those two teams, especially pittsburgh.

forwards

shanahan yzerman lapointe
kozlov fedorov brown
kocur draper maltby
mccarty larionov sandstrom —> not really a fourth line so much as a place to put guys who would move up/down and fill in elsewhere in the lineup

vs

stevens mario tocchet
[someone] francis jagr
loney trottier bourque
errey mceachern hrdina mullen/callander —> similar to detroit, these guys just moved around the lineup while mario, francis, and others double shifted

d

lidstrom murphy
fetisov konstantinov
rouse ward

roberts murphy
ulf samuelsson stanton
paek kjell samuelsson

g

vernon
osgood

barrasso
wregget

I don’t remember the Pens lines but Bowman was pretty consistent in ‘97 with this:

Kozlov - Fedorov - Brown
Shanahan - Larionov - Lapointe
Sandstrom - Yzerman - McCarty
Maltby - Draper - Kocur

Bowman could always shuffle against Mario but he stuck with these lines for most of that run.

 

[ShelbyZ]

The ‘97 team was definitely better for this than ‘98. Konstantinov was replaced with Anders Eriksson and Vernon played better than Osgood as well.

While Eriksson was the hopeful to replace Konstantinov going into that season, the guy that came closest to filling his shoes come playoff time was Jamie Macoun. Eriksson essentially replaced Aaron Ward (who spent the entire '98 playoffs in the pressbox)

Going from the 97 playoffs to 98... Lidstrom-Murphy remained the top pair, while Rouse-Macoun replaced Konstantinov-Fetisov for the second pair, with Fetisov dropping to the 3rd pair with Eriksson to replace Rouse-Ward.

All that said, the 97 D with Konstantinov is indeed likely better equipped to deal with the '92 Pens than the '98 D.

I think the only edge'98 might have is a slightly better forward group and PP with a suddenly emerged Holmstrom replacing Sandstrom and Lapointe noticeably stepping it up.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I don’t remember the Pens lines but Bowman was pretty consistent in ‘97 with this:

Kozlov - Fedorov - Brown
Shanahan - Larionov - Lapointe
Sandstrom - Yzerman - McCarty
Maltby - Draper - Kocur

Bowman could always shuffle against Mario but he stuck with these lines for most of that run.

i was just going by the '97 playoff game logs and saw that yzerman had a lot of ES point collaborations with shanahan and lapointe. but i guess he was with mccarty and sandstrom in the finals, or maybe even midway through the colorado series on?

you'd definitely know better than me.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

i was just going by the '97 playoff game logs and saw that yzerman had a lot of ES point collaborations with shanahan and lapointe. but i guess he was with mccarty and sandstrom in the finals, or maybe even midway through the colorado series on?

you'd definitely know better than me.

The old Bowman line blender.

Shanahan and McCarty were his wingers for most of the season. In the playoffs he and Larionov traded off who played with Sandstrom/Lapointe and Shanahan/McCarty.

 

[Richard]

I don't see 1992 Mario losing a playoff series. You had Jagr on the 2nd line with Francis.

I've watched a lot of playoff hockey and depth in grinders is the most overrated attribute. Having the best top end talent wins you championships.

Stevens still has a face, Barrasso hasn't self destructed yet and Jagr was on his path to superstardom.

Wings were good but I'd say the Pens win in 6.

 

[Big Phil]

This. I just cannot overstate how dominant Lemieux could be and when you throw in the likes of Jagr, Coffey, Tocchet, Francis and Stevens as secondary scoring should Mario have a tough time plus the confidence of this team, I don't see them losing. Maybe the 98 Wings would have been more prepared to handle this kind of challenge, but not in 97.

Correct. Coffey was on the Kings by 1992, but other than that I agree. There was still Murphy. This team is basically just a year younger than the 1993 team which led the NHL in points.

 

[buffalowing88]

The ‘97 team was definitely better for this than ‘98. Konstantinov was replaced with Anders Eriksson and Vernon played better than Osgood as well.

Konstantinov was an overrated player. Let's fight!

But yes, the replacement-level guy taking his space was a negative, but the 1998 forward group was more compatible. I'll always take Osgood over Vernon, but sure, to each their own.

 

[Bryce Newman]

I don't see 1992 Mario losing a playoff series. You had Jagr on the 2nd line with Francis.

I've watched a lot of playoff hockey and depth in grinders is the most overrated attribute. Having the best top end talent wins you championships.

Stevens still has a face, Barrasso hasn't self destructed yet and Jagr was on his path to superstardom.

Wings were good but I'd say the Pens win in 6.

1993 was arguably the best version ever of Mario, and he (and the Penguins) lost a playoff series to the Islanders of all teams. But if Mario gets to the Final it's hard to picture him losing. The greats always seem to turn their game up a notch when it matters most.

 

[danincanada]

The old Bowman line blender.

Shanahan and McCarty were his wingers for most of the season. In the playoffs he and Larionov traded off who played with Sandstrom/Lapointe and Shanahan/McCarty.

From what I recall the lines were pretty much set once Doug Brown came back into the lineup in the 2nd Round. The season was often a blender but when the team got rolling in the playoffs Bowman often ran with his lines.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

1993 was arguably the best version ever of Mario, and he (and the Penguins) lost a playoff series to the Islanders of all teams. But if Mario gets to the Final it's hard to picture him losing. The greats always seem to turn their game up a notch when it matters most.

The radiation treatments caught up with him those playoffs

 

[GMR]

People forget the Penguins in both 1991 and 1992 went 7 games in the first round. In 1992, they had to win game 6 on the road at Washington. They trailed 4-2 at one point in that game. In 1991, they were down 3-2 to the Devils and needed to win game 6 on the road to avoid elimination.

So they weren't exactly untouchable in the playoffs either year, even when Lemieux was playing. 1993 was their best team yet they finally slipped walking the tightrope against a weaker Islanders team.

 

[Bryce Newman]

People forget the Penguins in both 1991 and 1992 went 7 games in the first round. In 1992, they had to win game 6 on the road at Washington. They trailed 4-2 at one point in that game. In 1991, they were down 3-2 to the Devils and needed to win game 6 on the road to avoid elimination.

So they weren't exactly untouchable in the playoffs either year, even when Lemieux was playing. 1993 was their best team yet they finally slipped walking the tightrope against a weaker Islanders team.

And in Round 2 against the Rangers they were about to go down 3 games to 1 until a fluke Francis goal turned the tide. Rangers were up 4-2 in the 3rd period and that Francis goal made it 4-3. Penguins tied it, won in OT and the rest is history. But yeah if the Rangers hold on and go up 3 games to 1, no way would Pittsburgh come back and win 3 in a row against the Presidents Trophy winning Rangers. With Game 7 at MSG no less, if there was one.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

And in Round 2 against the Rangers they were about to go down 3 games to 1 until a fluke Francis goal turned the tide. Rangers were up 4-2 in the 3rd period and that Francis goal made it 4-3. Penguins tied it, won in OT and the rest is history. But yeah if the Rangers hold on and go up 3 games to 1, no way would Pittsburgh come back and win 3 in a row against the Presidents Trophy winning Rangers. With Game 7 at MSG no less, if there was one.

if that rangers team ended up winning the cup, this slash would probably be more famous than bobby clarke on kharlamov and we'd never hear the end of it.

but i'd like their chances against neely-less boston and chicago.

 

[Bryce Newman]

if that rangers team ended up winning the cup, this slash would probably be more famous than bobby clarke on kharlamov and we'd never hear the end of it.

but i'd like their chances against neely-less boston and chicago.

It was actually a pretty routine slash for the time period. Mario was notorious for not wearing the proper padding around his wrist area because he felt as if it would mess up his shot. He paid the price for it on that day. Graves was never a dirty player. A true great power forward with Edmonton and especially in New York where he really blossomed.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

It was actually a pretty routine slash for the time period.

If true, more a commentary on the time-period than anything, no?

Also, "routine slash" on the body's weakest joint outside the phalanges* reads kind of like "garden-type-variety mugging."

*There's a reason why wrist-locks (and finger/toe locks) are outlawed in major MMA bodies...

This. I just cannot overstate how dominant Lemieux could be and when you throw in the likes of Jagr, Coffey, Tocchet, Francis and Stevens as secondary scoring...

I haven't made up my mind yet, but this point is why "Red Wings handled Lindros no problem so they would have muted prime Mario Lemieux" assertions are fatuous.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I haven't made up my mind yet, but this point is why "Red Wings handled Lindros no problem so they would have muted prime Mario Lemieux" assertions are fatuous.

but otoh, the "pittsburgh was stopped by kasparaitis on mario with brad dalgarno, travis green, and claude loiselle so you have to like konstantinov on him with maltby, draper, and kocur" argument feels plausible.

but tbh i don't know who wins this either. honestly, it might just depend on whose volatile goalie is hot and whose turns into a tire fire.

i do like detroit's depth, though. three selke winning centers, plus larionov. you can make mario work by throwing a different look at him every time, knowing that every one of them is going to be defensively elite.

we know that francis can and did rise to the occasion with mario out of commission, and peak stevens, tocchet, and breaking out jagr is formidable. but beyond that there is virtually no scoring depth at all up front. mullen was hurt, and after him you're asking pre-rookie mceachern and plumbers like errey, bourque, and loney to up the puck in the net.

similar depth mismatch on d.

 

[Gurglesons]

Pittsburgh in 6. Detroit wasn’t close to that PIT squad as good as they were.

Lemieux, Francis, Jagr in the top six in their prime. And just in case those three aren’t good enough you got Tocchet and Stevens.

You’re throwing that up against Yzerman who was in a little bit of a lull career wise and focused on playing a 200 ft game, prime Shanahan + Fedorov and then what? Kozlov and 36 year old Larinov?

92 PIT was in the COL mold of skilled players that could grind and fight that gave DET fits, but even better.

 

[Gurglesons]

This one is tough. The Penguins have an incredible top 6 but the Wings have better depth, especially on defense. Goaltending is about equal.

I think it really boils down to Lemieux. If he lights it up the Pens win, if not they lose. The comparisons upthread about Lemieux and Lindros are silly. For one, Lemieux > Lindros.

Second, against Philly, Detroit could focus almost solely on Lindros. The Pens top 6 gives them enough depth that they a lot more secondary threats.

Plus we are talking 92 Lemieux. This is peak Lemieux. He was unstoppable. It’s not a question of if in 92 it is a question of when.

 

[danincanada]

Pittsburgh in 6. Detroit wasn’t close to that PIT squad as good as they were.

Lemieux, Francis, Jagr in the top six in their prime. And just in case those three aren’t good enough you got Tocchet and Stevens.

You’re throwing that up against Yzerman who was in a little bit of a lull career wise and focused on playing a 200 ft game, prime Shanahan + Fedorov and then what? Kozlov and 36 year old Larinov?

92 PIT was in the COL mold of skilled players that could grind and fight that gave DET fits, but even better.

You know who gave the Wings the most fits when playing the Avs? Patrick Roy. And Barrasso was a good goalie but he was not Roy. I’m not sure if Barrasso even out duels Vernon in this hypothetical. That and how superior Detroit’s defense is is a problem for the Pens. You don’t like Detroit’s forwards in comparison but they are a deeper group than the Pens and could really roll four lines.

My gut says Mario still pulls it out but as pointed out above, it’s not like Mario was actually invincible. Like I said earlier, Detroit looks like they have the better team but Mario is the wildcard that’s hard to bet against.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Plus we are talking 92 Lemieux. This is peak Lemieux. He was unstoppable. It’s not a question of if in 92 it is a question of when.

Easy now.. if he was unstoppable then why did the Pens only win twice?

Hockey is a team game.

 

[Gurglesons]

Easy now.. if he was unstoppable then why did the Pens only win twice?

Hockey is a team game.

Because he didn’t have the offensive support and hadn’t been through the trenches.