18/19 MGMT thread VII. WARNING POST #25

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Salvage what of the old core? For your info our 2 top D-Men is Edler and Tanev. One was drafted by Nonis and the other during Gillis. The rest of our D-men are absolute garbage.

No idea what you’re on about..

 

[Bleach Clean]

-Benning traded draft picks to get players to fill the age gap the team had ..They had players who were on the downside of their careers,and younger players who were too young to pull on the rope..not much in between.

-Sedins were on very reasonable contracts.,but the team around them was rapidly declining (this was evident after the SJS swept the Canucks in 2013)....So they were re-signed the following off season..Who's fault is that?

..and after spending a gazillion dollars signing them..you're not going to go directly into a rebuild..right?

Where have the Canucks finished the last 3 seasons again?

With or without the Sedins, this was and is an abysmal team overall. Therefore, 'Sedins =/= Rebuild' remains a false premise.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Like the Beagle and Roussel signings..the $ is good ,term is too long by a year
Schallie...whatever on that one..

Are you talking about the 4th for Poo?

So you’re cool with paying 2 veteran fourth liners $3M per year for 4 years? Or even 3 years? Though they were given 4 so that’s how we judge the deal.

Whatever on Schaller? So you’re just going to say you like what Benning has done, because you’re going to ignore the bad things?

I’m referring to the 2018 draft where the Canucks had a draft pick deficit.

 

[y2kcanucks]

No idea what you’re on about..

Of course you don’t

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

So you’re cool with paying 2 veteran fourth liners $3M per year for 4 years? Or even 3 years? Though they were given 4 so that’s how we judge the deal.

Whatever on Schaller? So you’re just going to say you like what Benning has done, because you’re going to ignore the bad things?

I’m referring to the 2018 draft where the Canucks had a draft pick deficit.

Yes..I like the signings..I'm glad that JB concentrated on the bottom 6,and didn't go out and get a top 6 UFA....JB basically gambled on the kids in the top 6,and its working out great.

Not worried about Beagle,he wiped the floor with everybody on fitness levels at training camp...Dont see him falling off for a while....Wonder what our record is without him in the lineup...His salary is only 600K over the league average.

Yes,we didn't have a 4th round pick in the last draft...we somehow landed Quinn Hughes though..I'm happy.

Oh,and I like the Leivo trade as well...

 

[Bleach Clean]

You literally can't make this stuff up... or, maybe you can?

Nothing would have precluded "gambling on the kids". They could have signed two top6 players, and they would still be gambling on the kids. That Benning chose to hunt and overpay bottom6 players on 4 year terms in no way suggests that there was a choice in gambling on the kids.

All he did was waste money in FA. It's what he does.

 

[LaVar]

man some people are so clueless its honestly unbelievable

 

[Melvin]

Yes @Melvin there is plenty of artillary to back up a firing of Benning. He has made a lot of mistakes and cost us potentially a couple years with Gudbranson and maybe Juolevi and Virtanen and the potential return on Kesler. Other than that he has taken a lot of picks ( a drafts worth plus) but he has re stocked the depth of the prospect pool and depth of the team in the process and the picks are debatable because every team has a few that dont meet the ceilings they hoped for. But lets not pretend Baertshi Dahlen Sutter Goldobin Leivo Gudbranson Motte are not useful players and would be good returns on 2nd round and beyond if we drafted them ourselves.

The problem here is baselining. Of course he's added some prospects and some "useful players." it is literally impossible to not do so if you are a GM for five years. And when you are running one of the worst clubs in the league you are going to accumulate prospects because that's how the league works.

Do you think that with any other gm the last five years we'd have added nobody? Did Steve tambellini not add any prospects during his Oilers tenure? Name me a single gm who has run a terrible team for four years about whom you could not say the above.

And this is what people seem to be fundamentally missing. There has to be some kind of reasonable baseline expectation for what a GM is going to do and it can't be "draft nobody and add zero useful players." I have shown repeatedly that we would be in no worse position today had we just drafted the best players available based purely on stats and made basically the bare minimum roster moves. Show me where I am wrong about this. Show me what Benning has done to elevate himself above the most basic expectation that would be achieved by a mop that's dressed up to look like Santa Claus.

The 14/15 season was a success given what he was hired to do and the direction he had to go given Aquilini and Linden were adamant they try and "win now with an eye on the future" this is what the plan was. Most experts and people here knew the core was done and as each day passed it was more and more obvious Daniel and Henrik were never going to ramp up their tired and old legs and win games when it mattered most against good teams. Aquilini wanted playoffs and that seasons success was a detriment and the plan had little chance to work long term but the off season didnt have a different one yet so we took our late 1st round pick and a 53rd in the 2nd round and turned those into Boeser and Baertschi. They couldn't trade Miller or others yet because the owner wanted more playoffs. So they addressed the roster. Added Sutter to try and get quicker down the middle and made some moves to clean up a few issues (Kassian)

The 2015/16 season things started to unravel. Willie D started doing Willie D things. long term injury to Sutter forced Horvat to play 2C and he ended the year a minus 30. Vrbata packed it in after Willie pulled him off the Sedins line and he had to play with McCann and Horvat. The other 2 top6 forwards Higgins 3 goals in 33 games and Burrows 9 in 79 games were done . In the bottom 6 they tried to implement youth but Virtanen and McCann were far from ready...........the season was a disaster and it would get worse as they clung to a playoff dream and lost out on returns for Hamhuis. The trade dealine on we were unstoppable in our quest for 1st overall....loss after loss after loss and then to rub salt in our wounds in typical Canuck fashion we went from 3rd to 5th in the lottery with Laine and Matthews. JB added a brutal trade for Erik Gudbranson and signed Eriksson and drafted Juolevi to basically put a cherry on top of one of the worst seasons on many levels for this organization. Gut wrenching

2016/17 was finally a turning point in directions. The Sedins were basically offensive situational only. There were no young players to save them and the team was obviously shifting from retool to rebuild. The deadline saw Hansen and Burrows go for Goldobin and Dahlen and the draft would yield Elias Pettersson our future #1c . Dorsett unfortunately was forced to retire. Internally it seems that Linden and Benning were at odds with different messages and despite some good moves the fanbase continued to be confused as to exactly what the plan was. People were pissed and it showed in the stands and all over these boards with good reason.

2017/18 drew in a new Coach and some players that he could use until the next crop of prospects were good enough to surpass them. Burmistrov Gagner Del Zotto Nilsson Vanek Pouliot...Rodin and Gaunce were given auditions.....it finally seemed like we were in rebuild mode and even used the word. Green was doing his best to develop Virtanen Hutton and and Goldobin with tough love. At the conclusion of the season we added Motte Leipsic Beagle Roussel drafted Hughes and Linden stepped away.

By the start of this season you could see a succession in place and the Canucks were rated as a top5 prospect pool. People said a potato could have done as well or better but what else did JB do.

At least we agree thst the plan was to build a competitive team while incorporating youth. I don't see how this can be assessed to be anything but a miserable failure. The team has not been competitive in four years and the only youth added that is of any importance were acquired with first round picks. I don't see how you can acknowledge what he was trying to do and not see his tenure as being anything but an utter disaster.

C - Aquired Sutter to play Shut down and allow his top scoring lines to flourish. Signed Beagle to a inflated contract to play 4c for 4 yrs while the team tries to develop someone to replace him.(not a great move) In Adam Gaudette he has a guy who is learning and improving and if he can continue to develop will allow them to move Sutter without creating a hole in the lineup. You have to admit we look really good going forward at the most important position. Madden is nice looking prospect also.

LW- Aquired Baertschi Goldobin Dahlen Leivo for what amounted to 2nd 3rd round and less pick values. signed Roussel Schaller to muck it up as the organization has no one ready for these roles for a few years and yes Granlund is still around providing utility until we get better. Gadjovich is a long shot. Some mostly 2nd tier guys but definitely some complimentary scorers who should be able to get 40-50pts if healthy.

RW- Eriksson....Ugggh. Yes thts a terribad move that i'm sure they would like to bury. He's not a terrible 3rd liner though. You have to give some huge credit for Boeser here at his draft position. Motte has been good utility and MacEwen looks to be heading for a look soon. Lind is long shot with his poor transition to pro hockey.....man it would have been nice to grab Jokiharju or Timmins at that pick. Lockwood is interesting

LD - You have to give Green some credit for Hutton here. Pouliot and Del Zotto will be gone once Hughes and Juolevi can play. No easy fix on defense. Sure would be nice if they can work something out with Edler to get another 1st for this years draft in Van. Rathbone is interesting

RD - Gudbranson was a flop move but at least looks like he can play most nights this year. Stecher has been under the radar good. Tryamkin and Woo hopefully can help soon. RD is an area of concern. Not a single guy that screams top4 anywhere unless Hughes plays his off side.

GK - Nilsson is a capable back up and his contract aligns nicely to Demko starting his career. DiPietro is a interesting prospect. I think were aligned about as well as can be hoped here. Goalies are tough to figure

So basically a whole bunch of worthless garbage except for some skilled players either grabbed in the first round or acquired by previous GM's. Baertschi may have been interesting if not for the fact that he can never stay healthy. And then a few guys playing in juniors or college who may turn out who knows but not.

 

[Melvin]

Who would we take if we just drafted based on stats?

I feel like I need to link to this in case some people are new and haven't read it. This Is drafting purely based on points per game adjusted for league context, age and player height:

2009: Brandon Pirri, Anton Rodin, Mike Hoffman, Benjamin Cassavant, Curtis McKenzie, Brandon Kozun, Michael Cichy
2010: Jesper Fast, Brendan Gallagher, Artemi Panarin, Alexei Marchenko, Brendan Ranford
2011: Shane Prince, Jean-Gabriel Pageau, Andrew Fritsch, Ondrej Palat, Joel Lowry, Josh Manson, Ryan Dzingel, Henrik Tommernes
2012: Esa Lindell, Jujhar Khaira, Alexander Kerfoot, Matej Beran, Emil Lundberg
2013: Alexander Wennberg, Artturi Lehknonen, Sven Andreighetto, Eric Locke, Andreas Johnsson, Juuso Ikonen, Brendan Harms
2014: William Nylander, David Pastrnak, Brayden Point, Viktor Arvidsson, Spencer Watson, Axel Holmstrom, August Gunnarsson
2015: Anthony Beauvillier, Anthony Richard, Andrew Mangiapane, Nikita Korostelev, Jonathan Davidsson, Tim McGauley, Kay Schweri
2016: Matthew Tkachuk, Vitaly Abramov, David Bernhardt, Maxime Fortier, Brayden Burke, Tim Wahlgren
2017: Elias Pettersson, Jason Robertson, Jonah Gadjovich, Igor Shvyrov, Matthew Strome, Artem Minulin, Austen Keating, Ivan Chekhovich

There is no f***ing magic to finding players in the draft. Any bozo with an Internet connection can do it. The overall performance of the above is nothing amazing but not worse than most nhl teams. Picking players is just not anything special at all. Why people act like it's some secret who is eleigeble to be drafted and only elite gms who scour the planet for players even know who is available is beyond me. You can f***ing get a pool of players from which to select from any one of about 1000 public and free sources online and then make your picks by throwing darts and you'll do as well as anyone else. It's not magic and it's not anything that is even worth discussing. It should be 0% of the assessment of a GM. Zero percent. It doesn't. f***ing. Matter.

At all.

Zero.

 

[clunk]

Nylander, Pastrnak,Point in the same draft...

****ing imagine that.

 

[Melvin]

Nylander, Pastrnak,Point in the same draft...

****ing imagine that.

And just like anyone else you are going to have drafts like 2015 which looks like crap because, to quote the Benningphiles, "it's not an exact science," but prove to me that Benning has some sort of special ability that can deliver results better than my simple AF system on a consistent basis.

 

[Pip]

Yes..I like the signings..I'm glad that JB concentrated on the bottom 6,and didn't go out and get a top 6 UFA....JB basically gambled on the kids in the top 6,and its working out great.

Not worried about Beagle,he wiped the floor with everybody on fitness levels at training camp...Dont see him falling off for a while....Wonder what our record is without him in the lineup...His salary is only 600K over the league average.

Yes,we didn't have a 4th round pick in the last draft...we somehow landed Quinn Hughes though..I'm happy.

Oh,and I like the Leivo trade as well...

4th line players shouldn’t be earning anywhere near the average salary lol

 

[Ryp37]

And just like anyone else you are going to have drafts like 2015 which looks like crap because, to quote the Benningphiles, "it's not an exact science," but prove to me that Benning has some sort of special ability that can deliver results better than my simple AF system on a consistent basis.

"Yeah but doing good in one draft means we wouldn't have gotten someone good the next draft!"

 

[Pip]

Melvin’s analysis doesn’t include the all important interview to make sure the team is drafting a “good kid” with lots of intangibles.

 

[Jack Burton]

Who would we take if we just drafted based on stats?

I feel like I need to link to this in case some people are new and haven't read it. This Is drafting purely based on points per game adjusted for league context, age and player height:

2009: Brandon Pirri, Anton Rodin, Mike Hoffman, Benjamin Cassavant, Curtis McKenzie, Brandon Kozun, Michael Cichy
2010: Jesper Fast, Brendan Gallagher, Artemi Panarin, Alexei Marchenko, Brendan Ranford
2011: Shane Prince, Jean-Gabriel Pageau, Andrew Fritsch, Ondrej Palat, Joel Lowry, Josh Manson, Ryan Dzingel, Henrik Tommernes
2012: Esa Lindell, Jujhar Khaira, Alexander Kerfoot, Matej Beran, Emil Lundberg
2013: Alexander Wennberg, Artturi Lehknonen, Sven Andreighetto, Eric Locke, Andreas Johnsson, Juuso Ikonen, Brendan Harms
2014: William Nylander, David Pastrnak, Brayden Point, Viktor Arvidsson, Spencer Watson, Axel Holmstrom, August Gunnarsson
2015: Anthony Beauvillier, Anthony Richard, Andrew Mangiapane, Nikita Korostelev, Jonathan Davidsson, Tim McGauley, Kay Schweri
2016: Matthew Tkachuk, Vitaly Abramov, David Bernhardt, Maxime Fortier, Brayden Burke, Tim Wahlgren
2017: Elias Pettersson, Jason Robertson, Jonah Gadjovich, Igor Shvyrov, Matthew Strome, Artem Minulin, Austen Keating, Ivan Chekhovich

There is no ****ing magic to finding players in the draft. Any bozo with an Internet connection can do it. The overall performance of the above is nothing amazing but not worse than most nhl teams. Picking players is just not anything special at all. Why people act like it's some secret who is eleigeble to be drafted and only elite gms who scour the planet for players even know who is available is beyond me. You can ****ing get a pool of players from which to select from any one of about 1000 public and free sources online and then make your picks by throwing darts and you'll do as well as anyone else. It's not magic and it's not anything that is even worth discussing. It should be 0% of the assessment of a GM. Zero percent. It doesn't. ****ing. Matter.

At all.

Zero.

I agree.

Old Jack Burton has always said that drafting is the easy part and player development is where its at for a franchise to be successful.

Who here trusts Jim Benning to properly develop our newest crop of young player's?

I know I certainly don't.

Player development has plagued this franchise for over a decade and I see no improvement under this regime...in fact, I think it's gotten worse under Jim Benning given how bad we have been over the years and how many player's he's gone through.

 

[Motte and Bailey]

"Yeah but doing good in one draft means we wouldn't have gotten someone good the next draft!"

Elias Petterson is the best player out of all the players available to us in any draft that Benning has been the GM for.

Tkachuk is nowhere near the level of EP so yes in hindsight it was better to get Juolevi and EP than Tkachuk and not EP.

 

[Pip]

Brayden Point is

 

[Cheeks Clapinski]

Elias Petterson is the best player out of all the players available to us in any draft that Benning has been the GM for.

Tkachuk is nowhere near the level of EP so yes in hindsight it was better to get Juolevi and EP than Tkachuk and not EP.

Doesn't work that way but ok

 

[absolute garbage]

Reading this thread without being logged in:

 

[Jack Burton]

Elias Petterson is the best player out of all the players available to us in any draft that Benning has been the GM for.

Tkachuk is nowhere near the level of EP so yes in hindsight it was better to get Juolevi and EP than Tkachuk and not EP.

Cody Glass said hold your horses.

Tkachuk said that he can't wait to meet Pettersson in the playoffs

 

[y2kcanucks]

Yes..I like the signings..I'm glad that JB concentrated on the bottom 6,and didn't go out and get a top 6 UFA....JB basically gambled on the kids in the top 6,and its working out great.

Not worried about Beagle,he wiped the floor with everybody on fitness levels at training camp...Dont see him falling off for a while....Wonder what our record is without him in the lineup...His salary is only 600K over the league average.

Yes,we didn't have a 4th round pick in the last draft...we somehow landed Quinn Hughes though..I'm happy.

Oh,and I like the Leivo trade as well...

I don’t know what to say then. When you’re okay with grossly overpaying 4th liners...the issue is either you’ll just be happy with whatever Benning does no matter what, OR you grossly overvalue the impact 4th liners have on the game and what your average 4th liner is paid.

I would much rather the Canucks have gone with a 4th line of Gaunce-MacEwen-Leipsic/Leivo and save about $5M than overpay for the garbage they went with.

 

[Hit the post]

I don’t know what to say then. When you’re okay with grossly overpaying 4th liners...the issue is either you’ll just be happy with whatever Benning does no matter what, OR you grossly overvalue the impact 4th liners have on the game and what your average 4th liner is paid.

I would much rather the Canucks have gone with a 4th line of Gaunce-MacEwen-Leipsic/Leivo and save about $5M than overpay for the garbage they went with.

Who the **** cares about the bottom six (forwards) when you can rely on the deep blue line has assembled.

Believe that when you have the best D in the league last year, you don’t have to make any changes.

 

[Melvin]

Melvin’s analysis doesn’t include the all important interview to make sure the team is drafting a “good kid” with lots of intangibles.

To be fair, the interview does have some value. For example one of the players rated quite highly by the metrics - Ryan Pilon - ended up retiring because he decided he didn't like playing hockey. This is information that would be useful to get from an interview, presumably.

 

[THE Green Man]

And you didn't answer the question at all. Seeing as how that whole age gap plan failed miserably, I ask again why you'd trust his judgement.


That has nothing to do with the second point of the post you quoted. I asked why Benning traded picks and prospects for immediate help if the prospect pool was so bad (as we all keep on hearing). That has nothing to do with the Sedins.


Why not? They're only two players. Considering what other junk Benning has crammed the roster full of, I doubt there would have been that much trouble if they're the only dead weights on the cap (aside from Edler, who remains the team's best overall dman).

To me this is and was always the issue. Linden felt the need to try to win to appease the Sedin's for everything they had done for the team and city- even though the window had slammed shut and it was the wrong choice. Therefore, I don't agree with the trading of draft picks to fill the age gap but at least there was some rationale behind it. That being said, it doesn't change the fact that Benning has done a piss poor job of building rosters nor failing to move assets at deadlines like a real rebuilding team would do. Then the cherry on top to further his incompetence, this past summer, with the knowledge he'd be without the Sedin's he doesn't accept he needs to embrace the rebuild and still spends just under 28M dollars total on bottom line players. This is just inexcusable and the longer he stays in power the more damage and the longer the set-back of this team will be.

 

[mathonwy]

To me this is and was always the issue. Linden felt the need to try to win to appease the Sedin's for everything they had done for the team and city- even though the window had slammed shut and it was the wrong choice. Therefore, I don't agree with the trading of draft picks to fill the age gap but at least there was some rationale behind it. That being said, it doesn't change the fact that Benning has done a piss poor job of building rosters nor failing to move assets at deadlines like a real rebuilding team would do. Then the cherry on top to further his incompetence, this past summer, with the knowledge he'd be without the Sedin's he doesn't accept he needs to embrace the rebuild and still spends just under 28M dollars total on bottom line players. This is just inexcusable and the longer he stays in power the more damage and the longer the set-back of this team will be.

Dude. You drank the Kool-aid.

Linden knows jack-all about hockey management.

Linden isn't even a hockey fan. He hasn't watched any hockey, let alone the Canucks, since he retired.

Linden only knows what other people tell him and the crap he said about the Sedins was pure and unadulterated garbage.