18/19 MGMT thread VII. WARNING POST #25

[MS]

What a f***ing stupid discussion.

Judge the GM by what he does with the NHL roster, not what he does with the recommendations of his scouts about magic beans.

 

[Motte and Bailey]

The GM’s most important job which will define his legacy is the draft because the players he drafts eventually become the roster. In the current NHL it happens very fast.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Do you think Benning individually scouted Tryamkin/Forsling/Gaudette.
Honest question, do you think that he watched more then 2 games of these players?
Are you one of those people who think Benning individually scouted all of the players in the draft to make a call on them. That he did the job of an entire scouting department all by himself? All while being a general manager of a NHL team.

No but obviously that scouting department in 2014 was assembled by him, right? I mean he had like 3 days to put it together. Amazing that he could put such a brilliant scouting team together on such little time, and weird that the results trailed off after that.

You two, of course, make salient posts, but I wanted to break this down further:

RMB's claim: Benning is a top5 drafter. His evidence:

- A 2 year sample, why?
- An NHLer/Non-NHLer arbitrary marker. I believe it's 30 games in this case because he counts 6 NHLers for the Canucks and Gaudette has only played 30 games.
- The GM makes the picks, not the scouts. It's funny, but in order to keep things simple let's attribute everything to the GM.
- GM started 3 days prior to the draft.
- No accounting of pick strength.
- No assessment of the strength forgone by picking the weaker prospect.


But anyways, let's roll with this. RMB, here's my retort: Nonis was equally as good within a 2 year sample and his teams reached the playoffs at a better rate than Benning. Why was he fired? From 2004 to 2005, he picked 6 NHLers at a 46% success ratio.

Forget Gillis, they should have never fired Nonis amirite?! #Facts

 

[valkynax]

Just gonna leave this here again

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

Just gonna leave this here again

The Leader is good
The Leader is great
We surrender our will as of this date

 

[tantalum]

I shake my head every time I see something like Jim has built depth. What depth? The team has multiple 13-14 forwards in the lineup when healthy. The blueline has several 7-8 guys. The farm has....nothing. There is no depth. There should be but there isn’t.

 

[valkynax]

The Leader is good
The Leader is great
We surrender our will as of this date

Nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh leader~~~

Nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh leader~~~

 

[WTG]

You two, of course, make salient posts, but I wanted to break this down further:

RMB's claim: Benning is a top5 drafter. His evidence:

- A 2 year sample, why?
- An NHLer/Non-NHLer arbitrary marker. I believe it's 30 games in this case because he counts 6 NHLers for the Canucks and Gaudette has only played 30 games.
- The GM makes the picks, not the scouts. It's funny, but in order to keep things simple let's attribute everything to the GM.
- GM started 3 days prior to the draft.
- No accounting of pick strength.
- No assessment of the strength forgone by picking the weaker prospect.


But anyways, let's roll with this. RMB, here's my retort: Nonis was equally as good within a 2 year sample and his teams reached the playoffs at a better rate than Benning. Why was he fired? From 2004 to 2005, he picked 6 NHLers at a 46% success ratio.

Forget Gillis, they should have never fired Nonis amirite?! #Facts

Best part is, that the 2014 draft is the most successful one and he had the least input in it. Draft lists were already made up and you aren't going to reassess 200 prospects.

 

[racerjoe]

If we had a different GM everything would likely be very similar, maybe a little worse or maybe a little better but very similar. It all comes down to expectations. You guys can throw around the Canucks record the last 4 years but the vast majority of people were expecting the losing considering the state of the team when Benning took over. What most people expected was that the GM build a new elite core through drafting which Benning has done a good job of.

Uhhh no. Most people here that are pro Benning were starting Playoff push threads and saying how good XY and Z were. Seriously go back. Every year even this one people say something about how good we are going to be. Hell this season Pro Benning people were claiming the team was going to improve by losing the twins.

Most people have the expectation that pro scouting is will likely be bad when you are in the process of building a new core, because you are not a hot destination for UFAs and you don't have the quality assets to bring in quality players through trade.

No that is also not true. You get good by having good scouting and picking up on good buy low players. People don't expect you to out and stupidly blow Money on Lui Eriksson and 4th line junk that won't move the needle.

The new GM (if Benning is fired) will have different expectations of good pro scouting and winning games similar to when Gillis arrived.

The new GM will have a lot of work to do if they started today. There is a lot of bad contracts to move and a lot of positions to upgrade.

 

[PG Canuck]

Top 5 drafter eh. Good chunk of these players have risen their value over Lind now.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

Yeah, everyone Benning inherited was old and busted up and there was no prospect pool...so why the hell would you keep trusting Benning's judgement if he looked at all those old and busted up players and thought they were all still good enough to make the team a contender?

If the prospect pool was a barren wasteland...why did Benning trade draft picks and prospects for players he thought could contribute right then?

If the Sedins were giant anchors with absurd contracts...how can it be an insult to them to try to rebuild the team while they were still here?

So...nobody's going to answer those questions, then?

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

So...nobody's going to answer those questions, then?

-Benning traded draft picks to get players to fill the age gap the team had ..They had players who were on the downside of their careers,and younger players who were too young to pull on the rope..not much in between.

-Sedins were on very reasonable contracts.,but the team around them was rapidly declining (this was evident after the SJS swept the Canucks in 2013)....So they were re-signed the following off season..Who's fault is that?

..and after spending a gazillion dollars signing them..you're not going to go directly into a rebuild..right?

 

[Jyrki21]

Just gonna leave this here again

Still waiting for my royalties!

 

[ProstheticConscience]

-Benning traded draft picks to get players to fill the age gap the team had ..They had players who were on the downside of their careers,and younger players who were too young to pull on the rope..not much in between.

And you didn't answer the question at all. Seeing as how that whole age gap plan failed miserably, I ask again why you'd trust his judgement.

-Sedins were on very reasonable contracts.,but the team around them was rapidly declining (this was evident after the SJS swept the Canucks in 2013)....So they were re-signed the following off season..Who's fault is that?

That has nothing to do with the second point of the post you quoted. I asked why Benning traded picks and prospects for immediate help if the prospect pool was so bad (as we all keep on hearing). That has nothing to do with the Sedins.

..and after spending a gazillion dollars signing them..you're not going to go directly into a rebuild..right?

Why not? They're only two players. Considering what other junk Benning has crammed the roster full of, I doubt there would have been that much trouble if they're the only dead weights on the cap (aside from Edler, who remains the team's best overall dman).

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

And you didn't answer the question at all. Seeing as how that whole age gap plan failed miserably, I ask again why you'd trust his judgement.


That has nothing to do with the second point of the post you quoted. I asked why Benning traded picks and prospects for immediate help if the prospect pool was so bad (as we all keep on hearing). That has nothing to do with the Sedins.


Why not? They're only two players. Considering what other junk Benning has crammed the roster full of, I doubt there would have been that much trouble if they're the only dead weights on the cap (aside from Edler, who remains the team's best overall dman).

The 'rebuild on the fly' years didn't work out...the age gap thing was part of that...I've liked pretty much everything that he has done since TDL 2017

You think the prospect pool in 2014 was good then?....okey dokey

Why didn't they do a rebuild after they had just extended the Sedins?....Thats a question for Francesco..not me.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Just gonna leave this here again

Thanks Jim,for bringing us Elias Pettersson.

 

[y2kcanucks]

The 'rebuild on the fly' years didn't work out...the age gap thing was part of that...I've liked pretty much everything that he has done since TDL 2017

You think the prospect pool in 2014 was good then?....okey dokey

Why didn't they do a rebuild after they had just extended the Sedins?....Thats a question for Francesco..not me.

So you like the Beagle, Roussel, and Schaller contracts? $6M longterm to 2 fourth liners, and another $2M to a guy who probably shouldn’t be in the league for this year and next.

You also liked going into the 2018 draft with a pick deficit?

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

So you like the Beagle, Roussel, and Schaller contracts? $6M longterm to 2 fourth liners, and another $2M to a guy who probably shouldn’t be in the league for this year and next.

You also liked going into the 2018 draft with a pick deficit?

Like the Beagle and Roussel signings..the $ is good ,term is too long by a year
Schallie...whatever on that one..

Are you talking about the 4th for Poo?

 

[valkynax]

Thanks Jim,for bringing us Elias Pettersson.

BB6 too~

Definitely give credit when credit is due. BB6 and EP40 are, as far as I'm concerned, outstanding picks.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

The 'rebuild on the fly' years didn't work out...the age gap thing was part of that...I've liked pretty much everything that he has done since TDL 2017

You think the prospect pool in 2014 was good then?....okey dokey

Why didn't they do a rebuild after they had just extended the Sedins?....Thats a question for Francesco..not me.

Why are you prepared to give Benning a mulligan for everything until 2017?

Also, why is it that the Aquamen are only cited for being horrible to Benning? I mean Gillis dealt with these guys for years, didn't he? He had the same owners to contend with, right?

 

[Cancuks]

I remember fondly when the Benningites lauded the Juolevi pick as a good one because it was "the safe pick."

Exactly, what was safe about it?

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Why are you prepared to give Benning a mulligan for everything until 2017?

Also, why is it that the Aquamen are only cited for being horrible to Benning? I mean Gillis dealt with these guys for years, didn't he? He had the same owners to contend with, right?

I think Benning came here under some trying circumstances..Having to salvage what was left of the old core..Lots of hits and misses there
..Although I think he’s more in his element now,building a team

I don’t think Aqua was horrible to Benning..I think they thought they could circumvent a proper rebuild by having a competitive team while rebuilding ,instead of having the building empty out ,doing a full on rebuild ...It’s just business

By the end of the Gillis era ..Ownership were kyboshing his trade deals (Anaheim and Pitts deals for Kesler).

 

[Grub]

I think Benning came here under some trying circumstances..Having to salvage what was left of the old core..Lots of hits and misses there
..Although I think he’s more in his element now,building a team

I don’t think Aqua was horrible to Benning..I think they thought they could circumvent a proper rebuild by having a competitive team while rebuilding ,instead of having the building empty out ,doing a full on rebuild ...It’s just business

By the end of the Gillis era ..Ownership were kyboshing his trade deals (Anaheim and Pitts deals for Kesler).

Salvage what of the old core? For your info our 2 top D-Men is Edler and Tanev. One was drafted by Nonis and the other during Gillis. The rest of our D-men are absolute garbage.

 

[Phenomenon13]

I shake my head every time I see something like Jim has built depth. What depth? The team has multiple 13-14 forwards in the lineup when healthy. The blueline has several 7-8 guys. The farm has....nothing. There is no depth. There should be but there isn’t.

Depth? lOL you have to be good to have actual depth.
We don't even have the high end talent

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Salvage what of the old core? For your info our 2 top D-Men is Edler and Tanev. One was drafted by Nonis and the other during Gillis. The rest of our D-men are absolute garbage.

Hutton isn't bad... Stetcher is fine as your 5th / 6th.

Hutton gets straddled with cement boots in Gudbranson most of his games.
Stetcher is having a worse year then last year.

Your point stands. Edler and Tanev are on the way out, we don't seem to have anyone but Hughes to replace them at some point.