Post-Game Talk: 18/19 Endless boilerplate arguments regarding Management thread | Pt. V. Oil up your mouse wheel.

[Melvin]

The argument at the time was that Gretzky had a strong desire to play with Bure, probably stemming from the fact that playing with Brett Hull didn't produce the desired results on the ice.



No the reports were that he wanted to play in Vancouver for his hometown(ish) team. Nonis the rookie GM didn't want to be the one to break up the team without giving them one last kick at the can as a group. I respect that but when a top-3 defenseman of the generation (Lidstrom, Niedermayer and Pronger for me, in some order) advises you that he wishes to play for your team, you make it happen.

That is nonsense. There were no such reports at the time. You are making shit up.

 

[F A N]

That is nonsense. There were no such reports at the time. You are making **** up.

I think you're wrong.

What I remember from the reports is that Gretzky did want to play with Bure and was very close to signing here. Niedermayer did have a desire to play here but ultimately he found a spot where he could play with his brother as well (given the contract Rob got, the Ducks' offer for the brothers was likely better).

 

[absolute garbage]

Checking in on the Canucks now that they have passed the 20 game mark, they now sit 30th in the league in xGF% on a score adjusted basis in all game states, including 28th at 5v5. The team is slightly worse in both regards (both on an absolute and relative ranking basis) than they finished up last season.

Canucks after 20 games:

18-19: 22 points, goal differential -5.
17-18: 21 points, goal differential -5.
16-17: 18 points, goal differential -17.
15-16: 20 points, goal differential +1.

 

[DomY]

That is nonsense. There were no such reports at the time. You are making **** up.

You're right I am. I just used my facts gained from being a hockey fan for over 20 years, and being a know-it-all fact hoarding nerd for 30+ years to weave an intricate online story on several different media outlets.

The phone call that killed Gretzky-to-Canucks - Sportsnet.ca

https://theprovince.com/sports/hock...e-canucks-missed-out-on-signing-wayne-gretzky

What If Gretzky had gone to Vancouver in 1996?

The way Gretzky tells it in his book (which, after all, might not be exactly accurate), he was "interested... in playing for the Canucks" in 1996, but didn't approach them until the chance of playing for Toronto was off the table. He and Mike Barnett (his agent) flew to Vancouver (of their own accord) to meet then-Canucks VP Stan McCammon, and negotiate. According to Wayne, he went to bed pretty much expecting to play for the Canucks. That night, Barnett and McCammon finally reached an agreement, and Barnett told Stan McCammon to wait for Wayne to get back to him in the morning, after he'd woken up and been presented the offer. However, McCammon was (strangely) demanding that they tell Wayne that night and have it decided now. Barnett relented and went to Gretzky's hotel room to wake him up. Gretzky thought the deal sounded fine, but (quite reasonably) said he wasn't going to sign anything until he'd at least had the chance to discuss it with his wife in the morning. Barnett called McCammon back and said that they were honestly not trying to take this offer anywhere else for negotiation and were quite happy with it, but that they'd have to wait until morning to finalize it. McCammon said, that was it -- too late.

Not only did the Canucks immediately take the offer off the table, but -- apparently just to make it official -- they also sent a fax to every NHL team saying they were ceasing negotiations with Gretzky. On route to L.A., at the Seattle Airport the next day, Gretzky and Barnett got a phone call from the Rangers, asking about his services. So, he ended up finishing his career in New York.

On Niedermayer:

Not the best source but:
Vancouver Canucks Hockey Blog: Niedermayer Still a Possibility for Canucks?

Mirtle: Canucks could have pursued Niedermayer

How's this for a poignant lament for Canucks fans: During the lockout, when GM Dave Nonis was negotiating Naslund's current three-year, $18-million deal, he had the option of pursuing unrestricted free agent Scott Niedermayer, a Cranbrook kid who had always made known his desire to play in Vancouver.

[MOD]

 

[Peter10]

No the reports were that he wanted to play in Vancouver for his hometown(ish) team. Nonis the rookie GM didn't want to be the one to break up the team without giving them one last kick at the can as a group. I respect that but when a top-3 defenseman of the generation (Lidstrom, Niedermayer and Pronger for me, in some order) advises you that he wishes to play for your team, you make it happen.

As far as I remember it was a bit of both. There was speculation that Niedermayer would be interested in joining the Canucks but only if they also signed/acquired his brother Rob. Scott got $27m for 4 years and rejected a deal from the Devils which would have paid him a million more per year on a 5 year deal, so it was not necessarly just about the money. Anaheim knew about the "brother preference" meaning a trade for RFA Rob Niedermayer would have been very expensive in terms of assets to give up. Additionally Rob then signed a 4y 8m deal, so getting both would have meant to take at least $8.75m cap space (out of the $39m ceiling), trading away assets and let Naslund (+maybe others) go.

It for sure would have been great to have Scott Niedermayer but it for sure wasnt an easy thing to pull of nor necessarly a recipe for success.

 

[MadaCanuckle]

Are The Canucks’ Most Recent First Rounders Trending Up Or Down Post-Draft?

Interesting read to evaluate how good the draft has been in the last five years (it starts with the Horvat pick by Mike Gillis). A 50% success rate should be counted as an average to good drafter, not an amazing as some people claim here...

 

[Melvin]

You're right I am. I just used my facts gained from being a hockey fan for over 20 years, and being a know-it-all fact hoarding nerd for 30+ years to weave an intricate online story on several different media outlets.

The phone call that killed Gretzky-to-Canucks - Sportsnet.ca

20 years ago today: How the Canucks missed out on signing Wayne Gretzky

What If Gretzky had gone to Vancouver in 1996?




On Niedermayer:

Not the best source but:
Vancouver Canucks Hockey Blog: Niedermayer Still a Possibility for Canucks?

Mirtle: Canucks could have pursued Niedermayer



[MOD].

I was talking about neidermayer. There were no credible reports of him wanting to come to Vancouver. That was fan fiction.

[MOD]

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

I was talking about neidermayer. There were no credible reports of him wanting to come to Vancouver. That was fan fiction.

[MOD]

You are wrong. It was widely known at the time.

 

[Melvin]

You are wrong. It was widely known at the time.

I followed hockey very closely. It was fan fiction.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

I followed hockey very closely. It was fan fiction.

My attitude was unfair. I just hate what hfcanucks has become and I took that out on you. My apologies.

But I'm telling you, I recall all sorts of reports on the radio that Niedermayer wanted to come back and that we basically had to choose to either give him 6 mil or resign Nazzy for the same. It wasn't just internet rumors and it wasn't some hacky Steve Simmons bullshit. It was pretty common knowledge.

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

There were absolutely zero Niedermayer to Vancouver rumors at the time. There were zero Vancouver rumors period that summer, since they were so close to being capped out everything was about who they were going to have to ditch (ended up being Malik and Sopel). There was never any "will he or won't he" speculation with Naslund returning - it was always a question of how much and how long.

 

[Hollywood Burrows]

uhh there were "rumours" that niedermayer would sign here back in 06, sure. They were peddled by cynics and morons, but they were out there.

 

[Melvin]

My attitude was unfair. I just hate what hfcanucks has become and I took that out on you. My apologies.

But I'm telling you, I recall all sorts of reports on the radio that Niedermayer wanted to come back and that we basically had to choose to either give him 6 mil or resign Nazzy for the same. It wasn't just internet rumors and it wasn't some hacky Steve Simmons bull****. It was pretty common knowledge.

I have to say this does not jive with my memory. I remember a lot of fans speculating and wishcasting just like every single time there's a bc player in free agency, and I remember pointing out to them that he's from Cranbrook and has nothing to do with Vancouver.

I don't remember any rumours above BBQ salesperson levels.

 

[Melvin]

Have to say in feeling really positive these days. I think management has really turned a corner.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Have to say in feeling really positive these days. I think management has really turned a corner.

Playoffs eh?

 

[Hit the post]

There were absolutely zero Niedermayer to Vancouver rumors at the time. There were zero Vancouver rumors period that summer, since they were so close to being capped out everything was about who they were going to have to ditch (ended up being Malik and Sopel). There was never any "will he or won't he" speculation with Naslund returning - it was always a question of how much and how long.

Assuming we had his brother under contract with the Canucks, that would’ve meant even less cap space available given that his brother wasn’t worth what he was paid. I seem to recall Burke only having the cap space available because he was able to find some sucker for Federov.

 

[RandV]

We never really had much of a shot coming out of that lockout. It was the new cap era and all our star players were coming off their second contracts and entering the new UFA years. The salary cap in year one was also set remarkably low which further squeezed the blood out of us.

There are always rumours whenever a local star UFA hits the market but I don't think it was ever feasible for us to get Scott. Also suggestion we should have walked from Naslund are using a huge dose of hindsight and not looking at how valuable he was to the franchise at that specific point in time.

 

[vanuck]

We never really had much of a shot coming out of that lockout. It was the new cap era and all our star players were coming off their second contracts and entering the new UFA years. The salary cap in year one was also set remarkably low which further squeezed the blood out of us.

There are always rumours whenever a local star UFA hits the market but I don't think it was ever feasible for us to get Scott. Also suggestion we should have walked from Naslund are using a huge dose of hindsight and not looking at how valuable he was to the franchise at that specific point in time.

I tend to see it this way too. For me the real mistake Nonis made in the summer of 2005 was passing on Kopitar, which would have probably led to at least a Cup win for us in the years to come barring everything else staying the same.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

Oh yeah, I remember hearing the Neidermeyer rumors.

I also remember hearing the Earth is flat, the moon landings were fake, and Obama bugged Trump Tower during the 2016 US presidential campaign.

Neidermeyer. I mean, JFC, we're back to that now? Seriously?

 

[Melvin]

Oh yeah, I remember hearing the Neidermeyer rumors.

I also remember hearing the Earth is flat, the moon landings were fake, and Obama bugged Trump Tower during the 2016 US presidential campaign.

Neidermeyer. I mean, JFC, we're back to that now? Seriously?

It is kind of mind boggling that this has returned 13 years later.

Should we also talk about Paul kariya and Peter Forsberg?

 

[DomY]

Oh yeah, I remember hearing the Neidermeyer rumors.

I also remember hearing the Earth is flat, the moon landings were fake, and Obama bugged Trump Tower during the 2016 US presidential campaign.

Neidermeyer. I mean, JFC, we're back to that now? Seriously?

The discussion started because someone said matching Philly's $1.9M offer sheet for Kesler was among the top 5 worst things ever to happen to this franchise.

 

[Melvin]

The discussion started because someone said matching Philly's $1.9M offer sheet for Kesler was among the top 5 worst things ever to happen to this franchise.

Tbf it was its own thread but got moved here for some reason.

 

[F A N]

As far as I remember it was a bit of both. There was speculation that Niedermayer would be interested in joining the Canucks but only if they also signed/acquired his brother Rob. Scott got $27m for 4 years and rejected a deal from the Devils which would have paid him a million more per year on a 5 year deal, so it was not necessarly just about the money. Anaheim knew about the "brother preference" meaning a trade for RFA Rob Niedermayer would have been very expensive in terms of assets to give up. Additionally Rob then signed a 4y 8m deal, so getting both would have meant to take at least $8.75m cap space (out of the $39m ceiling), trading away assets and let Naslund (+maybe others) go.

It for sure would have been great to have Scott Niedermayer but it for sure wasnt an easy thing to pull of nor necessarly a recipe for success.

That's pretty much how I remembered it. I think the Canucks were confirmed finalists for Niedermayer as he wanted to play on the west coast closer to family. The contract Burke gave to Rob was considered an overpayment at the time and it worked to lure Scott there.

 

[TruGr1t]

Checking in on the Canucks now that they have passed the 20 game mark, they now sit 30th in the league in xGF% on a score adjusted basis in all game states, including 28th at 5v5. The team is slightly worse in both regards (both on an absolute and relative ranking basis) than they finished up last season.

Thanks for the interesting stat. Not particularly surprising. Just have to try to reconcile the roster with the results to realize the situation isn't particularly sustainable. Pettersson and Horvat were inevitably going to slowdown and get tired trying to carry this trash fire roster around.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

I have to say this does not jive with my memory. I remember a lot of fans speculating and wishcasting just like every single time there's a bc player in free agency, and I remember pointing out to them that he's from Cranbrook and has nothing to do with Vancouver.

I don't remember any rumours above BBQ salesperson levels.

It was a weird time where there was briefly a bit more transparency as the system was new. If you recall the Bruins had only kept like 3 guys signed just in case there was a mass of free agents, the Devils screwed themselves by taking Malakhov and Mogilny and being over the cap.
And, the cap being at 39 million, the Canucks were left with a choice between Niedermayer and Naslund. That said, I'm not saying it is absolutely chiseled into stone that this is how it went. But the consensus everywhere was that this had been the choice. I loved Naslund and wanted to keep him, but in hindsight it was unequivocally the wrong call.