Post-Game Talk: #17 | Flyers at Bruins | November 17, 2022 | 7:00 PM |

[Flyerfan4life]

The last player the Flyers successfully developed. Maximized the talent within?

Konecny? Couturier? Laughton? Giroux? Let's see what happens with Hart.

I'm the first in line to shit on the scouts, but that's a mighty short list spanning back to 2006.

#development

 

[Flyer lurker]

Meanwhile the Devils won their 11th straight

Ya think the caps if they had a do over would keep Vanacek and not sign Kuemper

 

[Beef Invictus]

"they played a solid game"

Wow you really do see everything here

 

[Beef Invictus]

I don't care if they win or lose, I do care that they start developing some young players.
That's what a rebuild is all about.

People just have unreasonable expectations, rebuilding teams don't play a dozen prospects (they may audition a dozen, many with short cameos that don't overlap), if you develop 3 young starters a year (rookies and players moving up the depth chart) you're doing good - because in 4 years that 12 of 18 starters.

Well they are doing a bad job of that and they have for years, but you still go along with it for no reason even as the team constantly does the opposite of what you claim would be best.

 

[VladDrag]

Cates a strong defensive player and probably could be developed into decent defensive 4C. And hats off to him for a good performance last night. But let’s not misrepresent the discussion around Cates at center, please.

The issue I have read and hold personally about Cates is his game is perfect as a very good winger. I think he could be better as a middle 6w than a B6 center.

The other issue here, is the gifted icetime Cates is/was getting. He’s been performing fine defensively, but has been an offensive black hole, and yet, he’s still getting PP1 time, 3v3 time, 4v4 time etc.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Rebuilding teams dont sign away every future cap dollar to secondary pieces at full market value.

They (gasp) trade some pieces actually worth a damn, (not just JVR/Braun) - to help facilitate a rebuild. This is laughably the exact same scenario as the Hextall years, who at least had the balls to move Schenn, and move up for TK. Fletcher doesn't care about maximum talent harvesting come draft day.

Rebuilding is not in this clubs DNA. Sure as hell not from an asset point of view. Bullshit.

Hayes, Provorov, Laughton, Couturier, Risto, TK, Sanheim, and Farabee. 38.65 Million dollars. Great core.

I am going to laugh like a maniac when that Hart extension comes.

What is it that you want? For them to trade every player over 23 for draft picks? (Like that’s even remotely possible with the league wide cap situation.) And to lose as many games as possible season after season until hopefully enough picks pan out? And if they don’t, repeat the process? While any remaining fans lose interest &/or die out? And you think they’re a laughingstock now?

 

[FlyerNutter]

What is it that you want? For them to trade every player over 23 for draft picks? (Like that’s even remotely possible with the league wide cap situation.) And to lose as many games as possible season after season until hopefully enough picks pan out? And if they don’t, repeat the process? While any remaining fans lose interest &/or die out? And you think they’re a laughingstock now?

What I want, and what is even possible is a problem.

The team has committed itself already to negating any kind of weaponization they could have harnessed from someone like Sanheim, who would have been a prime trade candidate this season. For example, Sanheim on an expiring deal - or a Sanheim on a mega deal with a low offensive output season. The potential asset harvesting has already been squandered.

I'd move Provorov, and Konecny in a heartbeat at present time. Save, and weaponize cap space - similar to the Lehtera acquisition. There aren't a whole lot of other pieces to move otherwise, as term has been handed out in an incredibly lackadaisical fashion.

A true rebuild is the path forward. This perpetual half ass retool, with a fixation on overwhelming secondary talent - with no true path to finding elite players needs to end. Its yielded a boring product, with an incredibly low ceiling, and a pathetic obsession with an identity thats more concerned with protecting the egos/legacies of aging men. Do I want drafting/developing to be the primary focus? Yes. It's long overdue, and directly lead to where we are today.

The Flyers by action, have ignored - and laughed at teams that have committed to a path I propose. Ignoring obvious names that have won recent cups, even teams without that ring. Toronto, Ottawa, and New Jersey. Hell even Buffalo, or Montreal - which teams are set up better for long term success if properly managed? The Flyers are bereft of talent, and this mystical belief in effort is not going to work.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

What I want, and what is even possible is a problem.

The team has committed itself already to negating any kind of weaponization they could have harnessed from someone like Sanheim, who would have been a prime trade candidate this season. For example, Sanheim on an expiring deal - or a Sanheim on a mega deal with a low offensive output season. The potential asset harvesting has already been squandered.

I'd move Provorov, and Konecny in a heartbeat at present time. Save, and weaponize cap space - similar to the Lehtera acquisition. There aren't a whole lot of other pieces to move otherwise, as term has been handed out in an incredibly lackadaisical fashion.

A true rebuild is the path forward. This perpetual half ass retool, with a fixation on overwhelming secondary talent - with no true path to finding elite players needs to end. It’s yielded a boring product, with an incredibly low ceiling, and a pathetic obsession with an identity thats more concerned with protecting the egos/legacies of aging men. Do I want drafting/developing to be the primary focus? Yes. It's long overdue, and directly lead to where we are today.

Drafting/development was the entire plan Hextall sold the team on when he got the job.

The Flyers accrued 42 picks in his 5 drafts. 8 first rounders (2, 7, 14, 17, 19, 22, 24, 27 overall), & 6 2nd rounders.

Now 8+ years after his plan started, & it’s clear that draft-centered rebuild failed. So don’t pretend they didn’t try this approach.

Now you’re asking them to do it again. Great. See you in 2030.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Drafting/development was the entire plan Hextall sold the team on when he got the job.

The Flyers accrued 42 picks in his 5 drafts. 8 first rounders (2, 7, 14, 17, 19, 22, 24, 27 overall), & 6 2nd rounders.

Now 8+ years after his plan started, & it’s clear that draft-centered rebuild failed. So don’t pretend they didn’t try this approach.

Now you’re asking them to do it again. Great. See you in 2030.

I am once again here to say that just because Hextall failed at it doesn’t mean that it was the wrong plan.

This team isn’t turning it around until 2030 with where it’s at regardless.

What is your path to success with how the team is currently constructed?

 

[Danko]

My only issue with Cates is that there isnt much deception to his shot. Around the net his hands need to be better.

 

[mr4tno]

Two excuses I am getting sick of are:
(1) injuries and,
(2) that they just do not have enough talent

First, injuries happen to everyone. Do we have more than average? Possibly, but good organizations draft and develop young players so when prospects have to come in, maybe, they get you 70-80% of what was injured and then grow from there.

Second, there are several players making a crap ton of money. Based on salaries that CF has given out, lack of talent should not even be in the same conversation. The fact that there is, is an indictment of the Flyers process and the job CF is doing. And the fact that ownership cannot connect these dots is excruciating painful to the fans.

 

[flyerslducks]

What I want, and what is even possible is a problem.

The team has committed itself already to negating any kind of weaponization they could have harnessed from someone like Sanheim, who would have been a prime trade candidate this season. For example, Sanheim on an expiring deal - or a Sanheim on a mega deal with a low offensive output season. The potential asset harvesting has already been squandered.

I'd move Provorov, and Konecny in a heartbeat at present time. Save, and weaponize cap space - similar to the Lehtera acquisition. There aren't a whole lot of other pieces to move otherwise, as term has been handed out in an incredibly lackadaisical fashion.

A true rebuild is the path forward. This perpetual half ass retool, with a fixation on overwhelming secondary talent - with no true path to finding elite players needs to end. Its yielded a boring product, with an incredibly low ceiling, and a pathetic obsession with an identity thats more concerned with protecting the egos/legacies of aging men. Do I want drafting/developing to be the primary focus? Yes. It's long overdue, and directly lead to where we are today.

The Flyers by action, have ignored - and laughed at teams that have committed to a path I propose. Ignoring obvious names that have won recent cups, even teams without that ring. Toronto, Ottawa, and New Jersey. Hell even Buffalo, or Montreal - which teams are set up better for long term success if properly managed? The Flyers are bereft of talent, and this mystical belief in effort is not going to work.

I agree with most of what ur saying but I think tk is a player to keep. We can still rebuild the right way, accrue picks, and have the decent players to build around. Kings did it right. They traded their expiring guys or guys on short term deals (while keeping their top players), developed their youth (and still have plenty that are coming) and traded their accrued assets for guys like fiala/arvidsson.

 

[FlyerNutter]

Drafting/development was the entire plan Hextall sold the team on when he got the job.

The Flyers accrued 42 picks in his 5 drafts. 8 first rounders (2, 7, 14, 17, 19, 22, 24, 27 overall), & 6 2nd rounders.

Now 8+ years after his plan started, & it’s clear that draft-centered rebuild failed. So don’t pretend they didn’t try this approach.

Now you’re asking them to do it again. Great. See you in 2030.

I understand its a request that will not happen, but it's not because it is isn't workable. Other teams have done this. Don't doubt the process, just because the original architect failed at it.

My biggest gripe with Hextall from an asset management point of view was he wasn't aggressive enough in his vision. Far too willing to straddle that line of competing/rebuild letting high end talent age out, letting the team take its lumps in the standings - but other than the start of his tenure making no aggressive moves to ensure more true draft capital, or position. Too fearful of moving likeable pieces, for futures.

It's the exact same thing Fletcher is doing - except he has dipped more into the FA market.

Both men have faults, but the Hextall plan wasn't a true rebuild. Sure as hell not when he hung on to Simmonds, Giroux, and Jake to the point that all basically were robbed of adequate trade value.

With my plan a 2025 has a chance at doing something actually worth while. The current path sees nothing but hopeful 1st round upsets. Of course, the key is actually daring to remove incompetent men in coaching, scouting, analytics, and developmental roles. Without that - it is kind of for naught. I know what the likely scenario here is moving forward, we're living it.

 

[FlyerNutter]

I agree with most of what ur saying but I think tk is a player to keep. We can still rebuild the right way, accrue picks, and have the decent players to build around. Kings did it right. They traded their expiring guys or guys on short term deals (while keeping their top players), developed their youth (and still have plenty that are coming) and traded their assets for guys like fiala/arvidsson.

Can't agree FD. It's not because I don't see value to TK's game. I just see more value in the trade/draft asset - than a do overpaying him for a 30+ yr old contract based on his prime years. The Flyers refuse to do this, and refuse to analyze the benefits of such a move.

Better draft position, draft capital, and avoiding a likely problematic contract down the line. It comes from acceptance that this team has a fart in a windstorm's chance in hell at moving somewhere in the near future. The continued failure for the organization to accept where they truly stand, lies squarely on the men too proud to admit the game has moved on. I'll die on that hill.

 

[flyerslducks]

Can't agree FD. It's not because I don't see value to TK's game. I just see more value in the trade/draft asset - than a do overpaying him for a 30+ yr old contract based on his prime years. The Flyers refuse to do this, and refuse to analyze the benefits of such a move.

Better draft position, draft capital, and avoiding a likely problematic contract down the line. It comes from acceptance that this team has a fart in a windstorm's chance in hell at moving somewhere in the near future. The continued failure for the organization to accept where they truly stand, lies squarely on the men too proud to admit the game has moved on. I'll die on that hill.

ya I mean it sucks that we even have to think about trading guys like tk, provorov, sanheim, hart, etc because they are the only thing worthy. Which leaked the likes of hayes+risto hanging around. This is what we get for wasting so much cap space. There’s really no end in sight. that’s what I hate about this whole thing…we might have to go down this path. If they just accepted their loss and traded risto last year, it would’ve helped a lot.

Worst part about cap increasing is us spending loool. incoming more shit players on long term deals. We need to fix this or it’s another 10 years of nothing.

 

[Rebels57]

What I want, and what is even possible is a problem.

The team has committed itself already to negating any kind of weaponization they could have harnessed from someone like Sanheim, who would have been a prime trade candidate this season. For example, Sanheim on an expiring deal - or a Sanheim on a mega deal with a low offensive output season. The potential asset harvesting has already been squandered.

I'd move Provorov, and Konecny in a heartbeat at present time. Save, and weaponize cap space - similar to the Lehtera acquisition. There aren't a whole lot of other pieces to move otherwise, as term has been handed out in an incredibly lackadaisical fashion.

A true rebuild is the path forward. This perpetual half ass retool, with a fixation on overwhelming secondary talent - with no true path to finding elite players needs to end. Its yielded a boring product, with an incredibly low ceiling, and a pathetic obsession with an identity thats more concerned with protecting the egos/legacies of aging men. Do I want drafting/developing to be the primary focus? Yes. It's long overdue, and directly lead to where we are today.

The Flyers by action, have ignored - and laughed at teams that have committed to a path I propose. Ignoring obvious names that have won recent cups, even teams without that ring. Toronto, Ottawa, and New Jersey. Hell even Buffalo, or Montreal - which teams are set up better for long term success if properly managed? The Flyers are bereft of talent, and this mystical belief in effort is not going to work.

The powers that be cannot allow Fletcher to make one single solitary additional trade. Especially trades involving Provorov and Konecny. He shouldn't even be allowed to trade his Pokemon cards right now.

 

[flyerslducks]

The powers that be cannot allow Fletcher to make one single solitary additional trade. Especially trades involving Provorov and Konecny. He shouldn't even be allow to trade his Pokemon cards right now.

Yup, this is another issue entirely. He will never trade them for future pieces, It would be for help now. I can totally see him trading for horvat and giving him a crazy deal as he’s having a career year, for ex.

 

[FlyerNutter]

The powers that be cannot allow Fletcher to make one single solitary additional trade. Especially trades involving Provorov and Konecny. He shouldn't even be allow to trade his Pokemon cards right now.

Imagine coming into this draft, with the capital - and draft position after having the balls to move TK, Provorov, and Sanheim.

 

[deadhead]

Imagine coming into this draft, with the capital - and draft position after having the balls to move TK, Provorov, and Sanheim.

And missing on a lot of those picks b/c you're not getting top ten picks for players - the teams that trade for players at that age want to win now and pick in the high teens and 20s. So you get to draft a lot of middle six, 2nd pair defensemen types - but that's what what you're trading away! You're not going to get a top 5 pick unless you're lucky (takes a dumb GM to trade a pick without protection AND for his team to crash and burn). Most GMs ask for top 10 protection when they trade 1st rd picks.

You keep guys like TK and Sanheim to anchor the team, add high picks for 2-3 years, and develop depth - we have plenty of depth prospects, what we lack are a couple top players. The top players push everyone down the ladder and strengthen every line/D-pair.

 

[flyerslducks]

(takes a dumb GM to trade a pick without protection AND for his team to crash and burn).

it also take a dumb gm to trade 2nd rounders away when our pick is going to be a high one.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Drafting/development was the entire plan Hextall sold the team on when he got the job.

The Flyers accrued 42 picks in his 5 drafts. 8 first rounders (2, 7, 14, 17, 19, 22, 24, 27 overall), & 6 2nd rounders.

Now 8+ years after his plan started, & it’s clear that draft-centered rebuild failed. So don’t pretend they didn’t try this approach.

Now you’re asking them to do it again. Great. See you in 2030.

I pointed out during the Hextall years that his drafting and development plan was in grave danger from the get-go because he was embracing absolutely atrocious development priorities; priorities that Fletcher has continued and doubled down on.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Willman kinda sucked.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

I am once again here to say that just because Hextall failed at it doesn’t mean that it was the wrong plan.

This team isn’t turning it around until 2030 with where it’s at regardless.

What is your path to success with how the team is currently constructed?

2030?
You are being generous

 

[wasup]

Willman kinda sucked.

What were you expecting ?

 

[deadhead]

it also take a dumb gm to trade 2nd rounders away when our pick is going to be a high one.

At the time those trades were made, the expectation was the Flyers would be picking more like #50-60.
Delusional, but that was how the FO saw reality.

The big change that should come in drafting is more emphasis on speed, small and slow is no way to win in the NHL.
Torts' forecheck game needs fast forwards, especially in the bottom six ( they're bottom six players b/c they lack skill).
And if D-men are going to pinch on a regular basis, they'd better be able to get back quickly.

This was not something Holmgren or Hextall emphasized, and Fletcher only did sporadically.
TK, Sanheim, NAK and Frost in five years.
Tippett and TDA add speed, Sedlak and MacEwen have pretty good jets, but they need a bunch more.

Ideally they can start adding 6'0 200 lb types who can skate later in drafts.