GDT: 151110 Islanders @ Sharks CSNCA 7:30

[DaJackal]

Is the SNOG competition for selected applicants only or can anyone participate? If yes, mine is:

Sharks win 3-2

Donskoi, Pavelski, Burns
Tavares, Kulemin

 

[hockeyball]

I think the Hawks have gone 5-3-1 w/o Keith (and a couple of games without Hossa) but the Blues have been hit hard with injuries and have still been really, really good.

Unless something gets screwed up with them chemistry wise when they get healthy otherwise that is going to be one scary, scary team. The little changes Hitchcock has made to his system have that team playing great hockey regardless of who's in the lineup.

Which is exactly what the Sharks are not doing, and exactly what I'm harping at. The Sharks are not playing a consistent game from one day to the next. It doesn't matter who gets hurt, it doesn't matter what team you are facing, you play the same way every game. You work hard, you stick to your system, you focus on the details and you trust your team mates. There are going to be games where things don't work, it happens, but you should still see the effort to get back to what was working. We are not seeing that with this team. We are seeing a bunch of players with little to no confidence in their system, themselves, or each other. They are not outworking the other team when they are getting out skilled, they are not making sure the details of their games are in place.

They seem to be scattered, confused, and unsure of themselves unless things are going right, and THAT is not Couture's doing. That is a mental issue, and it's been around for quite awhile. We don't want to see it, we want to think the best of our team that we love, but that isn't going to get us a cup. This is a fragile team, there is something broken and clearly they do not know how to fix it. Until they do, this team is on repeat.

 

[jakeytown]

Is the SNOG competition for selected applicants only or can anyone participate? If yes, mine is:

Sharks win 3-2

Donskoi, Pavelski, Burns
Tavares, Kulemin

Anyone can participate

 

[Alwalys]

So it's not possible that there is in fact more than one problem? It's purely Couture nothing else? That's your stance? Because that is what it sounds like.

No it is not my stance and I have repeatedly said it is not. You on the other hand repeatedly have specifically that couture is NOT the problem AT ALL. which is just about as wrong as it is possible to be.

I am not saying Couture isn't part of the problem, he certainly is, I'm just saying he's not the MAIN problem, and the MAIN problem has nothing to do with him. You seem to be saying there is not other problem, it's only Couture, and the team need not worry about anything else. I happen to thinks that's extremely wishfull thinking.

There you go again, you pay lip service to the problem of couture being out then go right back to denying it has any effect. COUTURE IS ONE OF OUR BEST PLAYERS and a key piece in every facet of the game. It is impossible this does not have any bearing on the ability of the team to execute deboer's system on the ice. The only way it could not have a bearing is if deboer was horribly misusing couture but he was not.

No I said that I think the team appears to be following the same arc they did last season (but quicker, we won more games last year) and then they started losing. They also lost Couture and Martin, and that hurt, but even before they did I saw a team that looked to be illusionary, as in, worse than their record. Yes, losing Couture and Martin made things worse, and I suspect it brought the losing streak on sooner, but I think it was coming either way. Either way, we started losing, and our advanced stats went down the drain at the same time, and the team looked sloppy and unfocused all the while, which is exactly what I saw in game 3 and 4 that made me say that. I cannot definitively say I was right of course, that's unreasonable. There are a multitude of mitigating factors here that are impossible to account for. However I am one the one saying there is more wrong than just the obvious, you are the one saying "nope, it's just this, there is no other problem and I'm sure of it". It's fine that you think Couture is the only problem, that's your opinion and you are welcome to it, but I think you are wrong, deeply wrong, and I think you are in for some serious frustration this season if you think Couture is magically going to solve this teams problems.

except the advanced stats in game 3 and 4 show nothing of the sort. the top lines dominated possession as they usually do. and just to completely bend over your analysis, couture had the highest cf% on the team in the washington game.

you're just hating, and that's all.

Just saw this. How is it literally true when you admit that one of the problems is that the team needs time to adjust to DeBoer's system? Couture returning won't change that.

given that couture was capable of carrying it out well, in addition to his generally high aptitude, why the hell not?

It won't change the fact that DeBoer chose not to practice STs when the Sharks were near the bottom of the league on STs because he thought that the problem would work itself out. It won't change the 1st line's play. It won't change that DeBoer chose to ice two face-punchers on the 4th line when there were, at least arguably, better players that he could have selected. It won't change the fact that the defense has been spotty since Couture won't be on the ice for most of the game. It may help the defense when he's on the ice but how will it help when he's not?

Think: What is the key to deboer's thinking behind the PP working itself out? COUTURE RETURNING. Duh. Now he may be wrong not to practice it with couture out but he literally fixes the issue simply by returning.

It absolutely will have an effect on deboer's lineup decisions as it will push players who cannot be left out of the lineup down the roster where they will displace the weaker players.

It remains to be seen if Couture's return will help the 3rd or 4th line. I think part of that will depend on how DeBoer chooses to play those lines. If he starts the 3rd/4th lines in the D zone against other teams' top lines, I think there's a good chance that they'll still struggle. If he changes his strategy (and personnel on the 4th line), I think they'll do better. It also partly depends on some players becoming more consistent (e.g., Wingels, Nieto, Tierney).

No one is disputing that Couture is important to the team and that his return should help them greatly. But to say that he will literally fix every problem with this team when he returns makes no sense to me.

No one can guarantee he will fix every problem, but he literally will, as you literally said, change everything for the team. Because of where he slots in the lineup he will literally do that.

Insomuch as it puts players in much better positions to succeed up and down the roster, there's a good chance it does fix just about every problem.

How about the Habs or the Blues? At this point, the Blues have far more injuries than the Sharks since Martin has returned and they've done well. And, before he was injured, many ppl were saying that the Habs were winning mostly bc of Price.

The blues are not missing any players anywhere near comparable to couture and if anyone said that about the habs they are ignorant. That might have been true in previous years, but this season the habs are playing dominant hockey. Should they suffer an injury to a key skater though, that will likely change quickly.

 

[cydjericho]

Which is exactly what the Sharks are not doing, and exactly what I'm harping at. The Sharks are not playing a consistent game from one day to the next. It doesn't matter who gets hurt, it doesn't matter what team you are facing, you play the same way every game. You work hard, you stick to your system, you focus on the details and you trust your team mates. There are going to be games where things don't work, it happens, but you should still see the effort to get back to what was working. We are not seeing that with this team. We are seeing a bunch of players with little to no confidence in their system, themselves, or each other. They are not outworking the other team when they are getting out skilled, they are not making sure the details of their games are in place.

They seem to be scattered, confused, and unsure of themselves unless things are going right, and THAT is not Couture's doing. That is a mental issue, and it's been around for quite awhile. We don't want to see it, we want to think the best of our team that we love, but that isn't going to get us a cup. This is a fragile team, there is something broken and clearly they do not know how to fix it. Until they do, this team is on repeat.

This 100%

There is something fundamentally wrong with the culture of this team, and the current play should in no way be blamed on a missing person.

I'm not sure if it is just a culture change that is needed, but obviously its more than a coaching change because this is V3 of the "Stanley Cup competing" team that we have been promised all these years.

Why is it that new comers to the team are generally the ones who do the best, then eventually fall off? Example: Ward and Martin (pre season) this year, Smith (last year), Heatley (Hat trick in his first few gams). There is some sort of cancer in that dressing room that slowly effects players I think, and it doesn't sink in to new additions for a few weeks.

I've heard a ton of excuses from the Sharks brass, but they never seem to add up. Why is this team gang busters (for the past 6 years) out of the gate, then drop off significantly? Is it because the big boys (Thornton, Marleau, Couture, etc.) have a short attention span or can't be coached?

 

[CrypTic]

Which is exactly what the Sharks are not doing, and exactly what I'm harping at. The Sharks are not playing a consistent game from one day to the next. It doesn't matter who gets hurt, it doesn't matter what team you are facing, you play the same way every game. You work hard, you stick to your system, you focus on the details and you trust your team mates. There are going to be games where things don't work, it happens, but you should still see the effort to get back to what was working. We are not seeing that with this team. We are seeing a bunch of players with little to no confidence in their system, themselves, or each other. They are not outworking the other team when they are getting out skilled, they are not making sure the details of their games are in place.

They seem to be scattered, confused, and unsure of themselves unless things are going right, and THAT is not Couture's doing. That is a mental issue, and it's been around for quite awhile. We don't want to see it, we want to think the best of our team that we love, but that isn't going to get us a cup. This is a fragile team, there is something broken and clearly they do not know how to fix it. Until they do, this team is on repeat.

I agree that sticking with the system (and a system that works well and has been tweaked for the core players) is a big part of it. But the Blues have crazy depth at D, especially with the emergence of Parayko. The Sharks don't have that.

 

[Alwalys]

Why is it that new comers to the team are generally the ones who do the best, then eventually fall off? Example: Ward and Martin (pre season) this year, Smith (last year), Heatley (Hat trick in his first few gams). There is some sort of cancer in that dressing room that slowly effects players I think, and it doesn't sink in to new additions for a few weeks.

Why do they fall off? Because it is common for players to get a bump from being on a new team, then settle in to their normal skill level. And they are not top skill players, those are the players that consistently lead the team in scoring and are routinely near the top of the league. DW has not added any top skill players since burns -- who has improved and is now near the top of the league.

We're missing one of those top skill players right now. And that doesn't have any effect? Right.

No.

 

[cydjericho]

Why do they fall off? Because it is common for players to get a bump from being on a new team, then settle in to their normal skill level. And they are not top skill players, those are the players that consistently lead the team in scoring and are routinely near the top of the league. DW has not added any top skill players since burns -- who has improved and is now near the top of the league.

We're missing one of those top skill players right now. And that doesn't have any effect? Right.

No.

i think it has to do with a lot more than that. I honestly think there is something fundamentally wrong with some of the core players on this team. And as much as I love Thornton and Marleau, and Vlassic, and think they are extremely talented players, there is something wrong with the culture within.

I think Doug Wilson saw that last offseason, and tried everything within his will to dump one of the two to try and send a shock to the team, but he tied his own hands in giving both of them a NMC.

As much as I would hate to lose either one of those guys because they are potentially both HOF players, something has to give, and I think maybe Boston saw the writing on the wall with Thornton years ago.

This team is a hell of a lot worse than Couture being injured, and I think we will all see it once he gets back. Wilson has a tendency to drink his own Kool-Aid thinking his prospects are better than they are. But lets face it Tierney has been downright horrible this season, and you can expect nothing to be changed because the talent pool isn't all that deep.

 

[CrypTic]

given that couture was capable of carrying it out well, in addition to his generally high aptitude, why the hell not?

Simple logic. If the problem is A + B (which you said), then it's not true that the problem is entirely A (which you also said and are now defending). Whether or not Couture carried DeBoer's system out well, you said that the team needs time to learn the system. Hence, at least some players (besides Couture since you said he was playing it well) need more time to learn it.

Think: What is the key to deboer's thinking behind the PP working itself out? COUTURE RETURNING. Duh. Now he may be wrong not to practice it with couture out but he literally fixes the issue simply by returning.

IMO that's a bad coaching decision since Couture won't return until (at the earliest) a few more games and possibly (probably at this point) later. It's been 11 games already. How will Couture returning fix bad coaching?

It absolutely will have an effect on deboer's lineup decisions as it will push players who cannot be left out of the lineup down the roster where they will displace the weaker players.

And? I said as much. It still doesn't fix all the problems or fix the problems with his past lineup decisions. It still doesn't fix the problems with the first line or most of the problems with defense.

No one can guarantee he will fix every problem, but he literally will, as you literally said, change everything for the team. Because of where he slots in the lineup he will literally do that.

Insomuch as it puts players in much better positions to succeed up and down the roster, there's a good chance it does fix just about every problem.

Where did I literally say that Couture will change everything for the team? And you're offering no evidence of that, just your opinion without any real support for it. You're avoiding the essence of what I (and others) said: There are problems that Couture will help with and other problems that he won't help with. Address the issues about the problems with the 1st line, prior lineup decisions, decisions about which line to play when and where and other coaching decisions, the defense when Couture's not playing, etc.

The blues are not missing any players anywhere near comparable to couture and if anyone said that about the habs they are ignorant. That might have been true in previous years, but this season the habs are playing dominant hockey. Should they suffer an injury to a key skater though, that will likely change quickly.

Shattenkirk is important to the Blues. He's only played 4 games this season. Last season, most Blues fans thought he was the most important D-man on the team and I don't think they changed their minds about that before Shattenkirk was injured. He's back now but they played well when he was out (and most of that time, other key players were out as well). They're also missing Statsny, Schwartz, Berglund, and were missing Fabbri. For depth (not as important but collectively adds to their problems), they're missing Ott and Upshall. If the sum of all those parts isn't greater than Couture, Couture is the best player in the NHL and the Sharks are in trouble bc the rest of our team sucks. The Blues had to sign Havlat recently bc of all their injuries. That's how desperate they are.

 

[Alwalys]

There is literally nothing to support the drivel at the top of the post, all the Thorntons and Marleaus of the team do is lead the team and damn near the league every season. All Thornton does in particular is make people better on the ice. Hell we've been playing rookies on his line for going on 2 seasons now, and before that it was the likes of TJ galiardi. Put a good NHL talent there like burns, even if he DIDNT EVEN PLAY THE POSITION, and he's suddenly the best power forward in the league. Thornton's being ****in incredibly awesome is the absolute least of the team's problems.

This team is a hell of a lot worse than Couture being injured, and I think we will all see it once he gets back. Wilson has a tendency to drink his own Kool-Aid thinking his prospects are better than they are. But lets face it Tierney has been downright horrible this season, and you can expect nothing to be changed because the talent pool isn't all that deep.

It is fairly deep at forward, it has just been injured. We have had a lot of injuries. A lot.

 

[hockeyball]

Why do they fall off? Because it is common for players to get a bump from being on a new team, then settle in to their normal skill level. And they are not top skill players, those are the players that consistently lead the team in scoring and are routinely near the top of the league. DW has not added any top skill players since burns -- who has improved and is now near the top of the league.

We're missing one of those top skill players right now. And that doesn't have any effect? Right.

No.

Seriously man you need to calm down and listen to what I am saying. You have it locked in your head that I have said that Couture is not A problem. I never said that, he is A problem, of course he is, I'm not a moron. What I am saying is he is not the ONLY problem, and in my opinion not the BIGGEST problem. I also don't think his injury has anything to do with the BIGGER problem.

Does that clarify it? I'm not trying to piss you off here, I'm trying to get my point across which you don't seem to be understanding. Couture missing is a problem, just like Thornton, or Marleau, or Burns missing would be a huge problem. It is not however, in my opinion, going to fix the underlying issues to get him back. There are other problems, the loss of Couture has made those problems much more apparent, and if he comes back it may hide them again to a degree. There is a rot under the skin of this team, that's what needs to be fixed. This team should be able to withstand a loss of a player of Couture's caliber without a complete melt-down.

I don't hate Couture at all, or Thornton, even remotely. Just because I do not connect my emotional attachment with players with my analysis of the team does not mean I don't like those players. I like them both, immensely, and I would be sad to see either go, but that has no bearing on what I'm saying here.

 

[do0glas]

I'd also point out we are a young team and with that comes some inconsistency. At the same time, if you are putting players in positions to fail, they will fail. Tierney I think will be a great center that can play two way and not need to be sheltered. But he isn't that at this very moment. Yet he's still miles above anything we can put as 4c, including smith. You can't win consistently as a two line team. Especially if we are learning a new system at the same time. We are a .500 team missing our #1C/#4 d man through a month plus other depth guys. I look at this team positively. It's a work in progress that with couture can be placed in situations to succeed. That success isn't guaranteed but there are just so many more matchup options with couture in.

 

[Alwalys]

Where did I literally say that Couture will change everything for the team?

here:

To be fair, only a couple of posters are saying that Couture's return will change everything for the team.

where you're going wrong is attributing something to what i said that isn't there. it literally does change everything. change does not inherently mean good or bad.

but given the level of player couture is, there is every likelihood that it will change things for the better. so it is not possible to claim that what we see now is necessarily the way things are going to be, with the absence of a top caliber player that affects everything about the team.

 

[Goldenshark]

SNOG

Sharks 6-3

Pavelski (2), Ward, Marleau, Burns and Wingels
Tavares, Okposo and Boychuk

 

[CrypTic]

in reply to:

Phu: No one can guarantee he will fix every problem, but he literally will, as you literally said, change everything for the team. Because of where he slots in the lineup he will literally do that.

me: Where did I literally say that Couture will change everything for the team?

here:

quoting me: "To be fair, only a couple of posters are saying that Couture's return will change everything for the team."

That wasn't me saying it was true, it was me saying that other ppl said it. If you don't understand the difference in those two things, there is probably no point in discussing anything with you.

where you're going wrong is attributing something to what i said that isn't there. it literally does change everything. change does not inherently mean good or bad.

You've completely lost me there. I never said that change is inherently good or bad. I have no idea how you got that from what I said.

but given the level of player couture is, there is every likelihood that it will change things for the better. so it is not possible to claim that what we see now is necessarily the way things are going to be, with the absence of a top caliber player that affects everything about the team.

Where did I suggest anything like that? It seems like you've completely misunderstood what I said. I also notice you never answered my questions.

 

[Alwalys]

That wasn't me saying it was true, it was me saying that other ppl said it. If you don't understand the difference in those two things, there is probably no point in discussing anything with you.

My reply to was what you wrote there. It is irrelevant what the other people said.

 

[CrypTic]

My reply to was what you wrote there. It is irrelevant what the other people said.

I feel like you aren't understanding what I said. Again:

"in reply to:

Phu: No one can guarantee he will fix every problem, but he literally will, as you literally said, change everything for the team. Because of where he slots in the lineup he will literally do that.

me: Where did I literally say that Couture will change everything for the team?" "

Were you not suggesting that I endorsed the statement that Couture would change everything for the team? Bc that's how your statement above reads. If you weren't suggesting that, either you were being disingenuous or you're trolling.

 

[bluefunnel]

SNOG:

4-2 Sharks.

Marleau, Pavelski, Ward and Burns.

Tavares and Okposo.

 

[Solmors]

I think the Sharks will continue to struggle to find offense tonight (but we will outshoot them, in typical Sharks style)

Sharks: 1
Marleau

Islanders: 3
Tavares, Nielsen, Kulemin

 

[Alwalys]

I feel like you aren't understanding what I said. Again:

"in reply to:

Phu: No one can guarantee he will fix every problem, but he literally will, as you literally said, change everything for the team. Because of where he slots in the lineup he will literally do that.

me: Where did I literally say that Couture will change everything for the team?" "

Were you not suggesting that I endorsed the statement that Couture would change everything for the team? Bc that's how your statement above reads. If you weren't suggesting that, either you were being disingenuous or you're trolling.

No, that is the part you are misinterpreting. I replied to what you literally wrote.

here it is in context so you can follow:

c: To be fair, only a couple of posters are saying that Couture's return will change everything for the team.

p: That's not a good thing, every poster should understand it because it's literally true.

c: just saw this. How is it literally true when you admit that one of the problems is that the team needs time to adjust to DeBoer's system? Couture returning won't change that.

It won't change the fact that DeBoer chose not to practice STs when the Sharks were near the bottom of the league on STs because he thought that the problem would work itself out. It won't change the 1st line's play. It won't change that DeBoer chose to ice two face-punchers on the 4th line when there were, at least arguably, better players that he could have selected. It won't change all the problems with the defense since Couture won't be on the ice for most of the game. It may help the defense when he's on the ice but how will it help when he's not?

It remains to be seen if Couture's return will significantly help the 3rd or 4th line. I think part of that will depend on how DeBoer chooses to play those lines. If he starts the 3rd/4th lines in the D zone against other teams' top lines, I think there's a good chance that they'll still struggle. If he changes his strategy (and personnel on the 4th line), I think they'll do better. It also partly depends on some players becoming more consistent (e.g., Wingels, Nieto, Tierney). Couture's return should help by pushing one player down (who, obviously, then pushes another player down) but, by itself, it's not going to fix every problem with those lines.

No one is disputing that Couture is important to the team and that his return should help them greatly. But to say that he will literally fix every problem with this team when he returns makes no sense to me. How will he fix coaching problems? How will he fix defense when he's not on the ice?

p: given that couture was capable of carrying it out well, in addition to his generally high aptitude, why the hell not?

Think: What is the key to deboer's thinking behind the PP working itself out? COUTURE RETURNING. Duh. Now he may be wrong not to practice it with couture out but he literally fixes the issue simply by returning.

It absolutely will have an effect on deboer's lineup decisions as it will push players who cannot be left out of the lineup down the roster where they will displace the weaker players.

No one can guarantee he will fix every problem, but he literally will, as you literally said, change everything for the team. Because of where he slots in the lineup he will literally do that.

Insomuch as it puts players in much better positions to succeed up and down the roster, there's a good chance it does fix just about every problem.

 

[SJSharksfan39]

I'm going to the game tonight so I hope it's well played. Would like to see a total of at least 6 goals too.

SNOG

Sharks 4 (Melker, Goldy, Hertl, and Pavelski)
Isles 2 (Tavares, Leddy)

 

[The Nemesis]

Late to the Pelech party, but I didn't get home until about an hour ago and I needed some prep time.

Best part: the weird distortion was not my doing. I made the image and it just saved like that. As if it was some sort of poltergeist photo. *cue x-files music*

 

[Nighthock]

SNOG

4-1 NYI

Nekson, Lee, Nielsen, Boychuk
Wingels

 

[Zeroz]

As requested. Still scary.

Omg, yes.
SNOG
4-2 Isles
Okposo 2x, Lee, bailey
Wingles, burns

 

[DonskoiDonscored]

6-3 Isles
Who cares x5, Okposo
Hertl, Tierney, Pavelski