14 straight vs. the Leafs. Matthews was not enough. Patches & Chucky!

[PecnoTrunk]

Riiight. A small minority that blamed the guy that gets booed in every NHL arena? PK had a lot of fans but also had a lot of detractors. There's nothing revisionist.

PK is actually generating more offense than Webber while playing in 20ish less games. So since you are on that tip, how has Weber done in his last 20 games compared to Subban? He has been putrid after his hot start for the first 20 games of the season.

What are his stats at even strength?

3G 7A 10P Weber

5G 12A 17P Subban

20 less games.

So what is Subban doing right now? 10 pts his last 8 games. Weber? I'll let you answer that.

People here were flaming me when I said we got the short end of this trade

The only reason Weber was hot the first 20 games is because he already had a head start playing in the World Cup. After that everyone caught up and his slowness is now showing


A guy who weighs 240 pounds and is 31 years of age cannot and will not get better

His downward graph will be faster on the way down because of the abuse his weight puts on his joints


Anyone who disputes this doesn't understand human body

Genetics dictates training helps but genetics dictates


We got f***cjed in this deal. The art of the deal.

 

[1909]

People here were flaming me when I said we got the short end of this trade

The only reason Weber was hot the first 20 games is because he already had a head start playing in the World Cup. After that everyone caught up and his slowness is now showing


A guy who weighs 240 pounds and is 31 years of age cannot and will not get better

His downward graph will be faster on the way down because of the abuse his weight puts on his joints


Anyone who disputes this doesn't understand human body

Genetics dictates training helps but genetics dictates


We got f***cjed in this deal. The art of the deal.

MB possibly tought that PK's back would not stand the long run. He missed another dozen games this season. And he might have to have surgery down the road....

Maybe another mistake like Savard has done in the past when he thought Chelios' back was about to snap.

And both players were really a distraction in Montreal for totally different reasons, of course.

 

[Habs Icing]

Riiight. A small minority that blamed the guy that gets booed in every NHL arena? PK had a lot of fans but also had a lot of detractors. There's nothing revisionist.

PK is actually generating more offense than Webber

As it stands that sentence is pure BS. But should I expect anything more from someone who is motivated by blind hate.

Weber - not Webber - has more points overall. When it comes to ppg PK is .62 and Weber - not Webber - is .55. A difference of .07. Oh my god look at all the offense PK generates! It's definitely generational. I would gladly give up that .07 difference for the defense that Weber brings to the team.

Weber's GA/60 is 1.92. The generational talent has a GA/60 of 2.76. That's a dif of .84 for 60 minutes played. And Weber gets most of the tough match ups. Can you say that about PK in Nashville?

And let's make those numbers comparable. Assume that each player is on the ice for 20 minutes a game so that ppg difference is .21 in PK's favour. Weber has an advantage of .84 on the defense and PK has an advantage of .21 on the offense. Weber gives you a net advantage of .63 over a three game stretch. That's only one goddam player!

And if you want to look at the brute numbers: Weber has 33gf and 25 ga. The generational talent has gf of 32 and ga of 31. When you take both aspects of the game - defence and offence - Weber comes out looking much better than the generational talent.

 

[MasterD]

People here were flaming me when I said we got the short end of this trade

The only reason Weber was hot the first 20 games is because he already had a head start playing in the World Cup. After that everyone caught up and his slowness is now showing


A guy who weighs 240 pounds and is 31 years of age cannot and will not get better

His downward graph will be faster on the way down because of the abuse his weight puts on his joints


Anyone who disputes this doesn't understand human body

Genetics dictates training helps but genetics dictates


We got f***cjed in this deal. The art of the deal.

I'm also unhappy with that trade, but you're wrong.

31 years old. 230lbs. On his way to his first Norris:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=71733

If anything I think tall and big players can more easily have a long and productive career, on average, than smaller players. Gallagher looks like he's done and he's 24, is that because he's overweight?

 

[1909]

Weber was acquired for his experience, size, leadership, steady defensive play, shot on PP...
And that is exactly what he is providing.

If MB and the coaches are unable to find him a partner on his left side, that's their problem, not his.

A totally different set of skills than PK.

 

[Rosso Scuderia]

As it stands that sentence is pure BS. But should I expect anything more from someone who is motivated by blind hate.

Weber - not Webber - has more points overall. When it comes to ppg PK is .62 and Weber - not Webber - is .55. A difference of .07. Oh my god look at all the offense PK generates! It's definitely generational. I would gladly give up that .07 difference for the defense that Weber brings to the team.

Weber's GA/60 is 1.92. The generational talent has a GA/60 of 2.76. That's a dif of .84 for 60 minutes played. And Weber gets most of the tough match ups. Can you say that about PK in Nashville?

And let's make those numbers comparable. Assume that each player is on the ice for 20 minutes a game so that ppg difference is .21 in PK's favour. Weber has an advantage of .84 on the defense and PK has an advantage of .21 on the offense. Weber gives you a net advantage of .63 over a three game stretch. That's only one goddam player!

And if you want to look at the brute numbers: Weber has 33gf and 25 ga. The generational talent has gf of 32 and ga of 31. When you take both aspects of the game - defence and offence - Weber comes out looking much better than the generational talent.

Blind hate?

Saying PK generates more offense than Weber is much more factual than "hate".

So you're trying to use number to prove that PK generates as much offense as Weber but the numbers are showing otherwise?

Anyone who watches them knows PK generates more offense than Weber. The only offense Weber creates is by his shot.. on the PP. PK can create offense from his first pass/transition game, from his puck control ability, skating ability etc.. I don't know why you get so upset by this, PK has always been a offensive defenseman while Weber is more defensive minded with a lethal shot.

 

[PaulD]

MB possibly tought that PK's back would not stand the long run. He missed another dozen games this season. And he might have to have surgery down the road....

Maybe another mistake like Savard has done in the past when he thought Chelios' back was about to snap.

And both players were really a distraction in Montreal for totally different reasons, of course.

Therrien is the main reason PK is a Pred.

 

[Kenny Powders]

Blind hate?

Saying PK generates more offense than Weber is much more factual than "hate".

So you're trying to use number to prove that PK generates as much offense as Weber but the numbers are showing otherwise?

Anyone who watches them knows PK generates more offense than Weber. The only offense Weber creates is by his shot.. on the PP. PK can create offense from his first pass/transition game, from his puck control ability, skating ability etc.. I don't know why you get so upset by this, PK has always been a offensive defenseman while Weber is more defensive minded with a lethal shot.

so why are we discussing who brings more offense based on 2 different player styles?

Subban comes with offensive but creates a lot of turnovers, so sometimes it negates anything that he can produce.

If you create offense and score 2 goals but in the same game create 2-3 turnovers that creates scoring chances against and possibly goals against, it negates any number of offense you can create.

 

[PaulD]

Blind hate?

Saying PK generates more offense than Weber is much more factual than "hate".

So you're trying to use number to prove that PK generates as much offense as Weber but the numbers are showing otherwise?

Anyone who watches them knows PK generates more offense than Weber. The only offense Weber creates is by his shot.. on the PP. PK can create offense from his first pass/transition game, from his puck control ability, skating ability etc.. I don't know why you get so upset by this, PK has always been a offensive defenseman while Weber is more defensive minded with a lethal shot.

Yep.
Neither team any closer to Cup
this season than they were last year.
The trade made a lot of headlines.....did not make either team better or worse.
Like Pk SAID "a personality trade not a hockey trade"

More micro managing. Trading a young superstar because the coach dislikes his "character". For a "character" star player.

"shoot da puck!!"

 

[WG]

Weber was acquired for his experience, size, leadership, steady defensive play, shot on PP...
And that is exactly what he is providing.

If MB and the coaches are unable to find him a partner on his left side, that's their problem, not his.

A totally different set of skills than PK.

Honest question. What evidence do you see of actual leadership from Weber?

Team had a blistering hot start and has been one of the worst teams in the league since the 13-1-1 start. Team has been poor in almost all aspects for nearly four months. The whole leadership group, from MB to the coaches, to Max/Markov/Weber/Price should be somewhat accountable.

There's the story where players call him "Dad" and there's no doubt he's highly respected, but frankly I haven't seen any evidence of anything Weber has been doing to help pull the team out of its funk, and the results on the ice have been terrible for months.

Maybe you are seeing something I haven't. But if SW hadn't arrived with the prior reputation of leadership, would you be able to show something to distinguish him from, say, Markov or Petry, besides the meeting in Arizona?

 

[Rosso Scuderia]

so why are we discussing who brings more offense based on 2 different player styles?

Subban comes with offensive but creates a lot of turnovers, so sometimes it negates anything that he can produce.

If you create offense and score 2 goals but in the same game create 2-3 turnovers that creates scoring chances against and possibly goals against, it negates any number of offense you can create.

THat's not the debate here.

But if you want to go there, I'd also take Burns and Karlsson (and Subban) before Weber.. even if they make more mistake defensively because they keep the puck longer for trying to generate offense rather than just dumping on the board like any defensive D would do...

 

[Tuggy]

PK is gone. Get over it.

 

[Conflicted Habs fan]

That was the best win of all wins against the Leafs so far. I'm sure there will be better ones in future but this win is quite sweet.

 

[PaulD]

Julien will appreciate Shaw much more than the genius did.

 

[PaulD]

Honest question. What evidence do you see of actual leadership from Weber?

Team had a blistering hot start and has been one of the worst teams in the league since the 13-1-1 start. Team has been poor in almost all aspects for nearly four months. The whole leadership group, from MB to the coaches, to Max/Markov/Weber/Price should be somewhat accountable.

There's the story where players call him "Dad" and there's no doubt he's highly respected, but frankly I haven't seen any evidence of anything Weber has been doing to help pull the team out of its funk, and the results on the ice have been terrible for months.

Maybe you are seeing something I haven't. But if SW hadn't arrived with the prior reputation of leadership, would you be able to show something to distinguish him from, say, Markov or Petry, besides the meeting in Arizona?

Yes. Get over it.

Weber is a number 1 D. So is PK.

the rest is splitting hairs.

 

[PaulD]

People here were flaming me when I said we got the short end of this trade

The only reason Weber was hot the first 20 games is because he already had a head start playing in the World Cup. After that everyone caught up and his slowness is now showing


A guy who weighs 240 pounds and is 31 years of age cannot and will not get better

His downward graph will be faster on the way down because of the abuse his weight puts on his joints


Anyone who disputes this doesn't understand human body

Genetics dictates training helps but genetics dictates


We got f***cjed in this deal. The art of the deal.

Hows PKs back?

 

[donghabs98]

PK is gone. Get over it.

Unfortunately for many that will never happen.

 

[LaP]

PK is gone. Get over it.

People will get over with when we will win. Until then people will criticize MB for what they think is a bad trade as it should be if this is what they think.

 

[DaNaultinus]

Weber was acquired for his experience, size, leadership, steady defensive play, shot on PP...
And that is exactly what he is providing.

If MB and the coaches are unable to find him a partner on his left side, that's their problem, not his.

A totally different set of skills than PK.

Steady defensive play? Weber doesn't play defence better than PK. Look at turnovers/60. Weber has 2.36 and PK is under 1 at 0.98. He often loses his man in the corners and often is very poor at covering his guy in front of the net.

 

[Rapala]

I'm fairly certain Carey Price stole both our recent wins.
I hope we can start scoring sooooooon...

 

[hockeyfan2k11]

People will get over with when we will win. Until then people will criticize MB for what they think is a bad trade as it should be if this is what they think.

Exactly, it's that simple. It's not that PK's gone. it's how he was dumped and the reasons we were given. You don't dump a fan favorite then throw him under the bus blaming him for the team's ineptitude only to have the SAME issues as last year without fans being pissed about it.

I'm sure there were people that said things like "Patrick is gone, get over it". Yea, we're still not over it because we haven't won **** since and we're going into 3 decades of spinning our wheels.

Bergy sold us on this deal to win a Cup. That is the expectation. We are the same team. So the expectations are much higher now and that's on Bergy.

 

[hockeyfan2k11]

I'm fairly certain Carey Price stole both our recent wins.
I hope we can start scoring sooooooon...

Nothing new. This team will only go as far as Price can take it. If the Leafs got some good goaltending, they win.

 

[BLONG7]

I'm fairly certain Carey Price stole both our recent wins.
I hope we can start scoring sooooooon...

It's absolutely incredible, how bad our bottom 9 guys are playing..........they listed the guys last night, it was embarassing on how bad our guys have been at scoring...

A couple of tweaks in the lineup, and hopefully we get it going again...remember back in October, everyone was contributing, everyone...

 

[sheed36]

So how about that game last night. Huge 2 points.

This thread has gone way OT so here's a suggestion.. Why don't a mod just make a PK vs Weber thread and let people have at in that thread instead of it constantly spilling over into many threads. Things will likely get very heated there but just let people get it off their chests.

We know PK is gone but expecting fans to stop talking about this trade which ticked so many off is just not gonna happen especially while both players are still playing.

 

[Teufelsdreck]

Blind hate?

Saying PK generates more offense than Weber is much more factual than "hate".

So you're trying to use number to prove that PK generates as much offense as Weber but the numbers are showing otherwise?

Anyone who watches them knows PK generates more offense than Weber. The only offense Weber creates is by his shot.. on the PP. PK can create offense from his first pass/transition game, from his puck control ability, skating ability etc.. I don't know why you get so upset by this, PK has always been a offensive defenseman while Weber is more defensive minded with a lethal shot.

One of the two makes riskier decisions, and it isn't Weber. However, I don't deny that PK is a very talented athlete,