Post-Game Talk: 11/4/23 - Cats lose to Hawks 5-2

[Felidae]

I’m aware of him riding 40 goal scorers production to inflate his point totals while he mainly ghosts in critical times.

The one time 40goal scorer inflated the stats of the player that has paced for at least 90+ points in 3 of the last 4 years? Interesting.

But if u wanna check out his primary point totals and /60 rates they aren’t flattering. And they r getting worse. I’m pointing it out before its a massive problem and when it does become an issue that you all will be able to see soon enough I will be here to say I told u so.

Per 60 rates are a good tool but can also be easily misused. If you took them at face value, you could come to the conclusion that Alex Tuch is a better offensive player than Barkov.. Despite Barkov having the same amount of points in 10 less games this season.

Per 60 will also tell you Robertson is a better offensive player than Mackinnon, Kucherov and Pastrnak despite all of then outscoring him, while even missing 10 games like Mackinnon. Those are just this years examples.

In most cases i'll take raw point totals and a large sample size of points per game over points per 60

speaking of which, Barkov has hovered around the 26-46 per 60 rank in most years outside of 2020-21 and 2021-22. Including the year he actually finished 10th in points and 13th in PPG during the 2018-19 season yet placed 26th in per 60..

Per 60 seems like an even more flawed predictive tool than PPG.

As for primary point totals.. . Most of the high end producers tend to be the players with the most secondary assists as well. I remember this argument used to discredit Sidney Crosby back in the day.

 

[Laus723]

Because he's our captain, 1st line franchise centre, and being paid superstar money. Of course he should be called out more than most other players on the team. The expectations should be higher for him. He coasts along/underperforms too often and the amount of excuses for him on this board are a little ridiculous.

Barkov is a highly talented skilled player. But he is also an infuriating player to watch. He is who is and unfortunately that probably isn't going to change. Concerningly he looks less assertive when he really should be dominating more.

Barkov was my favourite player on the team since he was pretty much first drafted here. But stuff like being embarrassed going for empty netters, not shooting in prime positions, and being a shrinking violet in too many games is just really infuriating.

When he plays well and is assertive I call as I see it. As does vendetta btw.

And wins are irreverent. That doesn’t help y'all's case, at all.

Explain to me why Edmonton hasn’t made it all the way, why Toronto JUST made it out of the second round, why the Pens, Caps, Vegas, Bolts, and Avs ALL made it once their role players did what they needed to, I’m curious. The superstars did their jobs, but they can only do so much.

I expect 90 points at least out of a healthy Barkov, 100+ out of a healthy Tkachuk, and 50-60 out of a healthy Ekblad. Please let me know if you can figure out why I have different expectations for each player. And take your “well he’s the captain, he makes 10 mil” crap and stuff it. Does Winnipeg expect Lowry to be their highest scorer? Is that what the captain is, or is he their best leader? Which everyone says Barkov is.

No pass given to Barkov, fellas, but he right now IS NOT the team’s biggest problem, but y’all seem to not understand that.

 

[BabyBennettov]

The one time 40goal scorer inflated the stats of the player that has paced for at least 90+ points in 3 of the last 4 years? Interesting.



Per 60 rates are a good tool but can also be easily misused. If you took them at face value, you could come to the conclusion that Alex Tuch is a better offensive player than Barkov.. Despite Barkov having the same amount of points in 10 less games this season.

Per 60 will also tell you Robertson is a better offensive player than Mackinnon, Kucherov and Pastrnak despite all of then outscoring him, some like Mackinnon, even missing 10 games. Those are just this years examples.

In most cases i'll take raw point totals and a large sample size of points per game over over per 60

speaking of which, Barkov has hovered around the 26-46 per 60 rank in most years outside of 2020-21 and 2021-22. Including the year he actually finished 10th in points and 3th in PPG during the 2018-19 season yet placed 26th in per 60..

Per 60 seems like an even more flawed predictive tool than PPG.

As for primary point totals.. . Most of the high end producers tend to be the players with the most secondary assists as well. I remember this argument used to discredit Sidney Crosby back in the day.

Maybe those high-totals of secondary assists mean being always involved in the 200-foot game… Like Crosby… Or… Barkov !

 

[Felidae]

On unrelated note, while I was going through the per 60 stats from 2018 to 2022. I couldnt help but notice Huberdeau was always ahead of Barkov and always hovering around the top 10 in points per 60 rankings.. so suck on that JLD

 

[KW]

All those opposing teams must be really stupid. When we have a PP, they should just leave Barky open and cover Tkachuk and Reino, cuz the chump Barky is so incompetent and won’t take the open shot that he’s no threat. Instead they make the mistake of covering him and leaving Tkachuk open. Idiots! Just like the idiot Crosby who called Barkov the top three hardest players to play against. Finally, Zito is the biggest loser idiot of them all for giving Barky the big contract. Barkov is dooming this franchise!!!

There’s only one path to take now. Become a Maple Leafs fan. They don’t have a superstar who disappears in playoffs.

 

[BabyBennettov]

Lmao, oh so now you want in on the stupidity.

And wins are irreverent. That doesn’t help y'all's case, at all.

Explain to me why Edmonton hasn’t made it all the way, why Toronto JUST made it out of the second round, why the Pens, Caps, Vegas, Bolts, and Avs ALL made it once their role players did what they needed to, I’m curious. The superstars did their jobs, but they can only do so much.

I expect 90 points at least out of a healthy Barkov, 100+ out of a healthy Tkachuk, and 50-60 out of a healthy Ekblad. Please let me know if you can figure out why I have different expectations for each player. And take your “well he’s the captain, he makes 10 mil” crap and stuff it. Does Winnipeg expect Lowry to be their highest scorer? Is that what the captain is, or is he their best leader? Which everyone says Barkov is.

No pass given to Barkov, fellas, but he right now IS NOT the team’s biggest problem, but y’all seem to not understand that.

Naaaaaaaah man… Give me Draisaitl putting ridiculous numbers on one leg or Matthews scoring 60, because THAT’S showing an offensive killer-instinct… Don’t care about my captain shutting down the best team of all-time with his great teammates, while struggling with pneumonia and/or weird disease !

Oh yeah ? The sickness excuse coming back ? YES… Just like the Oilers and Leafs excuses every year.

They all must pee cold if they can’t enjoy Barky !

In the end, he has 2 goals, 7 apples for 9 points in 9 games, playing for a team that has looked pretty solid defensively (with 4 new faces on D… Let me write that again… FOUR NEW DEFENSEMEN), while still not catching hot and our PP looking like garbage ! That’s pretty solid…

So… Is he responsible for the PP struggles ? In part yes, of course… Should he have a more « killer-instinct » on offense ? Maybe. Does he still make mistakes and can improve ? Obviously.

This year alone, Sasha has basically tried for the ENG from his blueline, taken shots (and SCORED) on 2-on-1s, had some hard-drives to the net (with one ending as the epitome of a Barkov-play, a great pass back, with no one there to follow his talents and him driving the play), showed some evolution offensively and physically like he is notably faster, as strong as ever, still needs his balance back a little though IMO. Yet, he has shown and is showing once again his commitment to HIS team !

Is he overpaid ? Everybody around the league/game laugh at that notion ! Does he deserve accountability and criticism ? Of course, he is our best and highest paid player, you bet he has to be held accountable ! Criticisms need to always be fair though, they can be negative or positive or else, but it has to be fair and well-thought, well put…

Which most of the critics here aren’t !

Is he overrated ? I’ll take experts AND players AND my personal view/opinions who still rank our 90-points captain Selke winner/contender as a top-10 or so player…

I’ll take that before some trolling on a virtual board.

 

[TheImpatientPanther]

Irrelevant.

If we lost a game 5-3 but Barkov dominated and was highly involved in say 2 of the goals we scored, then Barkov wouldn't be a problem. Btw being highly involved means driving the play. Something he is really lacking at the moment.

I get you and Vendetta like to be edgy and call out Barkov, but if you expect him to be a stud every single game and shift because he makes $10 mil, maybe you're expecting too much?

Anytime I engage with Vendetta, he's shown facts and evidence but his eyes are the all seeing truth and the rest of us are all wrong?

 

[BabyBennettov]

I get you and Vendetta like to be edgy and call out Barkov, but if you expect him to be a stud every single game and shift because he makes $10 mil, maybe you're expecting too much?

Anytime I engage with Vendetta, he's shown facts and evidence but his eyes are the all seeing truth and the rest of us are all wrong?

Once upon a time, in a galaxy far far away… Far far far far far away…

It was called like it was… TROLLING.

lol

And it was AGAINST the RULES of the galaxy.

 

[I am not exposed]

And wins are irreverent. That doesn’t help y'all's case, at all.

Explain to me why Edmonton hasn’t made it all the way, why Toronto JUST made it out of the second round, why the Pens, Caps, Vegas, Bolts, and Avs ALL made it once their role players did what they needed to, I’m curious. The superstars did their jobs, but they can only do so much.

I expect 90 points at least out of a healthy Barkov, 100+ out of a healthy Tkachuk, and 50-60 out of a healthy Ekblad. Please let me know if you can figure out why I have different expectations for each player. And take your “well he’s the captain, he makes 10 mil” crap and stuff it. Does Winnipeg expect Lowry to be their highest scorer? Is that what the captain is, or is he their best leader? Which everyone says Barkov is.

No pass given to Barkov, fellas, but he right now IS NOT the team’s biggest problem, but y’all seem to not understand that.

I pointed out my concerns about Barkov. I never said you didn't need role players. I hold higher standards for a $10m player more than a $3m player. Barkov is not passing the eye test and I expect more out of him.

I have been pleasantly surprised with the start of the season because I expected our record to be much worse considering our injuries woes. Definitely on defense.

Barkov not being assertive enough is a problem. But it's not the only problem.

 

[I am not exposed]

I get you and Vendetta like to be edgy and call out Barkov, but if you expect him to be a stud every single game and shift because he makes $10 mil, maybe you're expecting too much?

Anytime I engage with Vendetta, he's shown facts and evidence but his eyes are the all seeing truth and the rest of us are all wrong?

I'm calling how I see it. I'm not doing it to be edgy.

Criticize Barkov and point out his flaws and the backlash around here is ridiculous.

He's being paid to be a franchise centre, and more often than not he's not performing to that standard.

 

[TheImpatientPanther]

I'm calling how I see it. I'm not doing it to be edgy.

Criticize Barkov and point out his flaws and the backlash around here is ridiculous.

He's being paid to be a franchise centre, and more often than not he's not performing to that standard.

I can't take you seriously when you say "more often than not". How would he be averaging 30+ goals and 90ish pts if he was more than often not playing as a franchise C when his past 2-5 years say otherwise?

Sorry, you and Vendetta are wrong.

 

[I am not exposed]

I can't take you seriously when you say "more often than not". Sorry, you and Vendetta are wrong.

We will agree to disagree then.

I don't expect perfection every shift or game by the way. But I would like to see more domination/assertiveness from him. More like the 2017/18 season I believe when he looked a lot more dominate on the ice. Interestingly enough he scored a lot more points the following season, but he didn't look as dominate imo.

 

[BabyBennettov]

I can't take you seriously when you say "more often than not". How would he be averaging 30+ goals and 90ish pts if he was more than often not playing as a franchise C when his past 2-5 years say otherwise?

Sorry, you and Vendetta are wrong.

Peeing cold ! I told you all…

It’s starting to sound like those arguments of Panthers are the worst team ever whenever we lose, and people don’t want to acknowledge that these guys are facing ANOTHER team made of COMPETITORS each night !

If Barkov was doing all he can and wants on the ice, it wouldn’t be the NHL… It is called the Harlem Globetrotters.

Like you said… Not serious, impossible.

 

[TheImpatientPanther]

We will agree to disagree then.

I don't expect perfection every shift or game by the way. But I would like to see more domination/assertiveness from him. More like the 2017/18 season I believe when he looked a lot more dominate on the ice. Interestingly enough he scored a lot more points the following season, but he didn't look as dominate imo.

I agree when you and Vendetta want more assertive behavior and to shoot more, even Barkov acknowledges it but he's always gonna be a pass first guy.

This is kinda my point, you can't be a 120ish pt player and still be a Selke like guy, it's a slider/balance and even this year he's basically a PPG while being on the ice for 10 GF vs 3 GA while 5 on 5.
He goes up against most top lines and we've played some highly offensive teams so far.

 

[I am not exposed]

I agree when you and Vendetta want more assertive behavior and to shoot more, even Barkov acknowledges it but he's always gonna be a pass first guy.

This is kinda my point, you can't be a 120ish pt player and still be a Selke like guy, it's a slider/balance and even this year he's basically a PPG while being on the ice for 10 GF vs 3 GA while 5 on 5.
He goes up against most top lines and we've played some highly offensive teams so far.

Barkov 2017/18 just looked a lot more assertive on the ice than last season and this season. My point is he was driving the play more, and was more noticeable on the ice both in attack and defense. He's obviously a very skilled player and will get points regardless (not a bad thing of course!) But he has the ability to take over games more often than he is shown recently. We saw it a few years ago.

 

[TheImpatientPanther]

Barkov 2017/18 just looked a lot more assertive on the ice than last season and this season. My point is he was driving the play more, and was more noticeable on the ice both in attack and defense. He's obviously a very skilled player and will get points regardless (not a bad thing of course!) But he has the ability to take over games more often than he is shown recently. We saw it a few years ago.

He's arguably had 2nd/3rd liners as wingers since they split up Huberdeau and him:
Dadonov, Duclair, Verhaeghe, Marchement and Rodrigues and Reinhart. Verhaeghe and Reinhart have improved a lot since coming here on their own as well.

They all seemed to elevate their games (yes some on the PP) but in general when 5 on 5 with Barkov and almost always, his line is on for more goals for than against.

I get there's 3-4 game stretches where he isn't elite Barkov but I tend to judge larger sample sizes now, some choose different volumes. Fair enough.

 

[KW]

He's arguably had 2nd/3rd liners as wingers since they split up Huberdeau and him:
Dadonov, Duclair, Verhaeghe, Marchement and Rodrigues and Reinhart. Verhaeghe and Reinhart have improved a lot since coming here on their own as well.

They all seemed to elevate their games (yes some on the PP) but in general when 5 on 5 with Barkov and almost always, his line is on for more goals for than against.

I get there's 3-4 game stretches where he isn't elite Barkov but I tend to judge larger sample sizes now, some choose different volumes. Fair enough.

That’s a key point: the coach and GM have a lot more flexibility in the lineup when Barky is in. Like most people know, you could throw just about anyone with Barkov and he’ll look decent. Consequently, you can pair up Tkachuk with the second best center and have two killer lines. And if the third line is firing too like Lundell’s line did with Reinhart, the offense is amazing. Thanks in large part to Barkov’s ability to carry a relative lightweight when needed.

Another true test is when asked whose absence hurts the most. It’s almost invariably Barkov. Even when he’s not at his best.

Still, he does need to drive the net more. I think it’s coming.

 

[TheImpatientPanther]

That’s a key point: the coach and GM have a lot more flexibility in the lineup when Barky is in. Like most people know, you could throw just about anyone with Barkov and he’ll look decent. Consequently, you can pair up Tkachuk with the second best center and have two killer lines. And if the third line is firing too like Lundell’s line did with Reinhart, the offense is amazing. Thanks in large part to Barkov’s ability to carry a relative lightweight when needed.

Another true test is when asked whose absence hurts the most. It’s almost invariably Barkov. Even when he’s not at his best.

Still, he does need to drive the net more. I think it’s coming.

Solid post KW.

 

[Gizmo Tkachuk]

That would be Nov 20th vs Edmonton at home.

 

[BabyBennettov]

Me I just remember the youngest goal-scorer in the NHL in history… And how assertive he was on that first ever goal !

 

[vendetta]

I can't take you seriously when you say "more often than not". How would he be averaging 30+ goals and 90ish pts if he was more than often not playing as a franchise C when his past 2-5 years say otherwise?

Sorry, you and Vendetta are wrong.

I don’t give a shit about two years ago. I have stated that multiple times. I’m talking about last year/playoffs and going into this year where the passive on ice play is becoming more and more pronounced. Hes nit creating offense near a level that he needs to. he’s supposed to be a playmaker. Where r these offensive plays? He has done nothing in the pp. Absolutely nothing. He makes 10mil. these excuses r brutal. You guys r saying things that would make sense for a player like denault or backlund. Its laughable

 

[TheImpatientPanther]

I don’t give a shit about two years ago. I have stated that multiple times. I’m talking about last year/playoffs and going into this year where the passive on ice play is becoming more and more pronounced. Hes nit creating offense near a level that he needs to. he’s supposed to be a playmaker. Where r these offensive plays? He has done nothing in the pp. Absolutely nothing. He makes 10mil. these excuses r brutal. You guys r saying things that would make sense for a player like denault or backlund. Its laughable

I could care less about your sample size then. He's declined one 1/4 year in the last 5, wow, big deal. Like other players haven't?

I'm done with ya, you're out on lonely island screaming into the abyss....

 

[austropanther]

This all reads very strangely when you have at least one of the posters on your ignore list

 

[vendetta]

I could care less about your sample size then. He's declined one 1/4 year in the last 5, wow, big deal. Like other players haven't?

I'm done with ya, you're out on lonely island screaming into the abyss....

Ya 100ganes is a small sample size

 

[BabyBennettov]

This all reads very strangely when you have at least one of the posters on your ignore list

So that’s you ?

How’s life on this board after doing this ?