10 years. Time is up Shanahan.

[thegazelle]

Fire Shanny? That's just an empty gesture. Crying about a team president? Only in Canadian markets do fans even know their names let alone call for their heads, no wonder it's been 30+ years with no cup.

You may be right, but as a trend, executives in any industry aren't there for an extended period of time, unless they are also the founders of the company (and in those cases, the companies are small or are private.

I have worked for many global companies, and they all seem to take the same tactic with addressing either performance (ie. ultimately stock price) issues or the need to remain competitive in the industry. Usually, it's the front line workers who are ousted first, and maybe some middle management, and then the President/CEO is out. I have worked with many companies who brought in a new President/CEO, we all hear the rah-rah schpiel and for a while things may SEEM to improve, but bottom line performance is what the stakeholders/stockholders are after.

It is almost unheard of to see mediocre results and / or consistently underperforming results keeping a President/CEO onboard. Ultimately things fall on him/her, fairly or unfairly. Shanahan's 10 years is a bit of an outlier for the level of performance his teams have delivered. He has to be ultimately responsible as he signs the cheques and the senior executives are a reflection of his vision and strategy. Maybe he may be the fall guy, but in any other industry, senior leadership is ultimately accountable.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

I get people are pissed and crapping on Marner is the popular thing to do this off season but instead on just giving me a lol response , explain where i'm wrong .

1) Mitch isn't a "scapegoat".
2) He won't be missed.

 

[FerrisRox]

Marner is one of the top playmakers/play drivers in the league , you attach a useless slug like JT to him in the playoffs and he'll get shut down

The Bruins didn't shut Marner down. Marner shut down himself.

How can you blame John Tavares for Marner's play? Did Tavares tell him to shy away from any physical contact?

Did Tavares insist he avoid the high traffic areas?

Did Tavares mandate that Marner stay on the perimeter?

What are you talking about here?

 

[Gilmour1996]

Because of Pelley's newness at his position he will be reluctant to make big changes at the top so soon. He needs a scapegoat handy until he knows the team better. Most he will do IMHO is keep Shanny around as a "Special Assistant to the CEO" and let Shanny help him find Shanny's replacement or let Tre do both jobs. That will buy Pelley some time yet give the impression he's not happy.

 

[hotpaws]

1) Mitch isn't a "scapegoat".
2) He won't be missed.

take a good look at our forwards and it's easy to see he will be missed regardless of the playoffs he had

as i said in the original post you replied too , Marner is a certain type of player who excels at certain aspects of the game but he needs certain types of linemates to compliment what he does well just like the example i gave you with Kanre , Keefe thought it was more important to to try to get him to carry Tavares than it was to try to put the most effective lines together

 

[57 Years No Cup]

See FerrisRox's post above. No one's buying your schtick.

 

[sxvnert]

They'll let his contract run out and move on. Tre will get another kick at the can.

 

[hotpaws]

The Bruins didn't shut Marner down. Marner shut down himself.

How can you blame John Tavares for Marner's play? Did Tavares tell him to shy away from any physical contact?

Did Tavares insist he avoid the high traffic areas?

Did Tavares mandate that Marner stay on the perimeter?

What are you talking about here?

Marner has always been a perimeter play driver/play maker , he's never been a physical guy who bangs around the crease looking to bang in loose pucks .

so when you team him with the corpse of JT who does nothing and no one works well with it's not going to turn out well , what they should have done was leave JT on the 3rd line in limited mins and try to form an effective 2nd line

AM with Willie and Bert
Domi with Mitch and Knies

but instead of trying something that doesn't involve JT in the top 6 , Keefe decided he was going to sink or swim banking of Johnny Mumbles to save his job

 

[Gilmour1996]

Marner has always been a perimeter play driver/play maker , he's never been a physical guy who bangs around the crease looking to bang in loose pucks .

so when you team him with the corpse of JT who does nothing and no one works well with it's not going to turn out well , what they should have done was leave JT on the 3rd line in limited mins and try to form an effective 2nd line

AM with Willie and Bert
Domi with Mitch and Knies

but instead of trying something that doesn't involve JT in the top 6 , Keefe decided he was going to sink or swim banking of Johnny Mumbles to save his job

They didn't want a first line in the playoffs with only one player on it healthy enough to play all 7 games.

 

[hotpaws]

See FerrisRox's post above. No one's buying your schtick.

Schtick ?

Marner is a perennial 90 plus point producer in the regular season and close to a ppg in the playoffs who is also very good defensively , his salary should be in the 9's but that's another topic

he isn't a perfect all around player but he's great at what he does and is a big reason we cruise to the playoff every year , dumping him and his cap hit for a pkg of support players is absurd

i'm pissed at another early exist along with everyone else and far from thrilled extending him at what he'll probably want but the alternative to not extending him is worse

i've said for a long time this team will be spinning it's wheels until JT and his cap hit is off the team , i don't need Marner being another casualty in a long list of players shipped out to deflect criticism away from JT so if that's what you consider a shtick then so be it

now this being said i'm open to trading anyone if it'll help the team , the problem is i don't see teams lining up to offer a young stud D or young elite power forward in a trade for Marner so while a could see a team offering a pkg of quality futures i don't see how that type of trade would potentially elevate us before AM and Willie are in the 30's

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Reasonable take. I just don't share your optimism on Marner's playoff value. He has zero.

 

[hotpaws]

They didn't want a first line in the playoffs with only one player on it healthy enough to play all 7 games.

great so keeping JT in the top 6 guaranteed we didn't have an effective 2nd line either

 

[hotpaws]

Reasonable take. I just don't share your optimism on Marner's playoff value. He has zero.

we can't agree on everything ,

 

[socko]

Reasonable take. I just don't share your optimism on Marner's playoff value. He has zero.

He may have negative value as far as I'm concerned. He has an attitude that rubs off on the entire team. He refuses to change anything about his game. He needs to go so bad.

 

[Seath The Scaleless]

Do I know how important scoring is?

Really? This is our level of discourse? How about you be honest and realize defense wins championships, scoring gets tight in the playoffs especially given matchups like Florida and Boston that play low event hockey. In a wide open series Mitch gets his 11 points vs Tampa. It's tiresome reading these stats lines calling out Leafs when you can cherry pick the same for every other team's superstar except maybe Edmonton and funny enough they score and haven't won s*** either.

So you're supposed to win 2-1 every playoff game because things get tight? Sure, a game here and there, but you also need to push through with goals in other games, especially when you're built to score. The last two cup winners averaged 4+ goals a game. And Tampa, even with Vas in net, averaged 3+ in both runs. You're asking a lot from your D and G when you struggle to get more than 2 on a consistent basis.

But fine. Let's say everything is always tight and goals are hard 5 on 5 etc etc. What's the excuse for the anemic PP?

But 'scoring is important' so what? You're gunna trade give to have some caproom to overpay two Bertuzzis that don't score either?

Or maybe you can bring in a good D who can help with the transition game and keep plays alive in the offensive zone. Less time spent in the defensive zone means a better chance to score. You did say we need an elite blue line, no?

My dream lineup? Maybe you should flex on your with imaginary players that get 2 points a game in the playoffs and cost no more than 7 million against the cap.

Well, the current situation of $11M being a no show in the playoffs is far from a flex.

This goaltending is voodoo is beyond silly. The Leafs have gone bargain shopping for goaltenders for the entire cap era and the Leafs have lost to Rask, Rask, Price, Vasilevskiy, Brobrovsky, Swayman so where is this voodoo, those are all year in year out top ten goaltners two with 10 million cap hits. You want to throw more money at scoring and not stopping pucks? I can get on board with that. Maybe we could learn a lesson from the teams that beat us. How is that voodoo working for Jack Campbell?

Alright so how are we going get an elite goalie? Anyone hitting UFA soon that we can dish out our imaginary $10M in cap space? Or you're thinking trade for Markstrom who's had a roller coaster last few seasons?

Also, how on earth did teams win the cup without an elite goalie or spending a boatload on the position?!?

Get rid of Tavares sure, no one will take issue with that, July 2nd after his bonus to a team that needs a center and has cap room sure. Giving away Mitch or letting him walk? That's the worst idea but by all means be a slave to a narrative.

At least we finally agree on something (Tavares) lol

As for Marner, letting him walk would be a disaster. However, giving him a $12M per year extension would likely handcuff us going forward. I mean, it can work, but it's far from ideal. If you can get a solid return in a trade, I'm all for it. Maybe he wants a change of scenery as well.

Fire Shanny? That's just an empty gesture. Crying about a team president? Only in Canadian markets do fans even know their names let alone call for their heads, no wonder it's been 30+ years with no cup.

Yeah, that's the reason why no one has won a cup lmao

 

[BLONG7]

Shanny lives on eh....................he and Tre and Pelley all address the media on friday..................Keefe will be canned tomorrow and will the new coach be introduced on Friday also??

 

[Leafsfanperson]

So you're supposed to win 2-1 every playoff game because things get tight? Sure, a game here and there, but you also need to push through with goals in other games, especially when you're built to score. The last two cup winners averaged 4+ goals a game. And Tampa, even with Vas in net, averaged 3+ in both runs. You're asking a lot from your D and G when you struggle to get more than 2 on a consistent basis.

So you want to trade Mitch for who? A guy that is less offensively gifted to score more goals? Do you want Hyman back for Mitch straight up because he happens to be scoring a series. This is what I'm critizing, this buy high on a penny stock like Hyman who is having a fluke season and sell low on Mitch. It

Winning 2-1 is more sustainable, I want the Leafs in a position to win. The last 8 years have shown the Leafs can't win those series.

This is also a silly point because the big three are fine against teams that open up the game. Those three are enough to win.

Tampa just had their ass handed to them by the team I'm describing the Leafs become.

But fine. Let's say everything is always tight and goals are hard 5 on 5 etc etc. What's the excuse for the anemic PP?

So Boston had a good PK so give away a top ten talent in Leafs history out of spite?

Or maybe you can bring in a good D who can help with the transition game and keep plays alive in the offensive zone. Less time spent in the defensive zone means a better chance to score. You did say we need an elite blue line, no?

Beside Rielly the Leafs don't have one legitimate top four defenseman and 'Voo Doo' goaltending. Scoring comes and goes goaltending and defense gives you a chance to win every game. Can't go cheap on Brodies, Muzzins, Lilgren. Benoit and Edmundson are fine talents to round out the bottom for your cheap cap busters. But if the Leafs don't get Hanifin or Lindholm glue guy they'll never win. I'm not asking for a Norris winner, I'm asking for bare minimum quality blueline.

Well, the current situation of $11M being a no show in the playoffs is far from a flex.



Alright so how are we going get an elite goalie? Anyone hitting UFA soon that we can dish out our imaginary $10M in cap space? Or you're thinking trade for Markstrom who's had a roller coaster last few seasons?

Also, how on earth did teams win the cup without an elite goalie or spending a boatload on the position?!?

Get a goaltender then deal with the cap crunch for a year and fill the roster out with some cheap wingers. You can even trade for another star winger at the deadline and have a non playoff team retain. Wingers are always avaible on the trade market, you can always find a bargian young winger. Wingers are the most disposable position in the league. And before you say 'but you want to give MItch another 11 million' elite is the exception to the rule.

Leafs can't package Woll while he has some shine on him and prospects for a Saros? Trade for Ullmark and if Boston says go f yourself you pull a Burke and say cool, we'll offer sheet Swayman and force you to trade one. Weaponize MSLE money to put Boston in a bad situation.

You'll say 'Boston won't make deal with the Leafs' cool then anytime you can hurt them do it. Make them pay more for their talent. Make an example for other teams in the division that don't want to do business with the Leafs.

Target a team that has goaltending but is as frustrated as the Leafs for losing in the playoffs. You get creative.

At least we finally agree on something (Tavares) lol

As for Marner, letting him walk would be a disaster. However, giving him a $12M per year extension would likely handcuff us going forward. I mean, it can work, but it's far from ideal. If you can get a solid return in a trade, I'm all for it. Maybe he wants a change of scenery as well.

12 million with the cap going up in the future, you won't do better trying to find offense with that 12 million.

How about you make up an injury for Tavares sit him till the playoffs like teams that want to win do. Leafs have to stop being boyscouts and cheat the system, They have enough lawyers and office dweebs to pull it off

Yeah, that's the reason why no one has won a cup lmao

 

[Leafsfanperson]

You may be right, but as a trend, executives in any industry aren't there for an extended period of time, unless they are also the founders of the company (and in those cases, the companies are small or are private.

I have worked for many global companies, and they all seem to take the same tactic with addressing either performance (ie. ultimately stock price) issues or the need to remain competitive in the industry. Usually, it's the front line workers who are ousted first, and maybe some middle management, and then the President/CEO is out. I have worked with many companies who brought in a new President/CEO, we all hear the rah-rah schpiel and for a while things may SEEM to improve, but bottom line performance is what the stakeholders/stockholders are after.

It is almost unheard of to see mediocre results and / or consistently underperforming results keeping a President/CEO onboard. Ultimately things fall on him/her, fairly or unfairly. Shanahan's 10 years is a bit of an outlier for the level of performance his teams have delivered. He has to be ultimately responsible as he signs the cheques and the senior executives are a reflection of his vision and strategy. Maybe he may be the fall guy, but in any other industry, senior leadership is ultimately accountable.

Good post.

Shanny has been fine to bring the legends back, redo the logo, upgrade the medical staff and resources. A culture of stuff like how they treated Sammy during his struggles and players seem to want to sign in Toronto because they are treated well in a 'tough' media market. He's done as well as any team president I've seen with the Leafs, he's more hockey culture than a random coward CEO that will just pay lip service to the on ice product.

I see it as a category error to demand his head. Like firing your accountant if your car breaks down.

If we're firing random people why don't we just all blame Hayley Wickenhieser, she apparently a voice in the organization so fire her? Just pick a random person that is divorced from the issue and fire them.

 

[hotpaws]

putting Shanny aside for the moment , what happens to the rest of our bloated mgmt team , i don't see a purpose in having i believe it's 5 agm's

 

[Daisy Jane]

putting Shanny aside for the moment , what happens to the rest of our bloated mgmt team , i don't see a purpose in having i believe it's 5 agm's

we have five?

 

[hotpaws]

we have five?

Dubas added a bunch of them the year before he was fired

 

[Just Rude]

I will say i have zero problem keeping AM/Mitch and Willie , the core piece that shouldn't have been signed and needs to go is Johnny Mumbles ,

EDIT: I am laughing at the reference, not that he has to go.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Dubas added a bunch of them the year before he was fired

if i remember rightly. he wanted to build a big front office so they can get poached. (and then i guess you have better connections i think it was? but i didn't think it expanded to like five people. )

 

[thegazelle]

Good post.

Shanny has been fine to bring the legends back, redo the logo, upgrade the medical staff and resources. A culture of stuff like how they treated Sammy during his struggles and players seem to want to sign in Toronto because they are treated well in a 'tough' media market. He's done as well as any team president I've seen with the Leafs, he's more hockey culture than a random coward CEO that will just pay lip service to the on ice product.

I see it as a category error to demand his head. Like firing your accountant if your car breaks down.

If we're firing random people why don't we just all blame Hayley Wickenhieser, she apparently a voice in the organization so fire her? Just pick a random person that is divorced from the issue and fire them.

I will also reciprocate that your post was excellent as well, very thought provoking.

You make some good points about Shanahan's positive contributions and that brings a truism in life - that oftentimes we tend to focus on the things people do that are bad, rather than either looking at their whole body of work or at least considering the counterbalance that they have had positive contributions.

It is very true we can get entrenched in negativity to the point that the basis on which we focus. We see that too in terms of online reviews - we tend to focus on the negatives and seemingly ignore the positive comments.

That said, I still would stand by my original premise that Shanahan is ultimately responsible, but your post has caused me to supply a caveat to this. I guess it's important for anyone assessing Shanahan to understand what the original scope/purpose of his hire was. If it was to re-invigorate some parts of the corporate culture, since as appreciation of past history, supporting employees and personnel in mental health and life challenges - then it could argued he has met that threshold of why he was hired.

But I am doubtful they hired him just to improve the other facets of employee and organizational life, without looking at the end-product on the ice. For that, I do think there is nowhere to hide insofar as performance. But even then it is true - I don't know and most of us would not know the benchmark or basis by which MLSE considers success. It could very well be that ultimately, irrespective of on-ice performance, it becomes just a numbers game, insofar as finances. If the Leafs are meeting and / or exceeding revenue or profit targets, then he has done his job, IF that is what he was hired to do.

 

[hotpaws]

if i remember rightly. he wanted to build a big front office so they can get poached. (and then i guess you have better connections i think it was? but i didn't think it expanded to like five people. )

Derek Clancey Assistant General Manager, Player Personnel
Brandon Pridham Assistant General Manager
Darryl Metcalf Assistant General Manager, Hockey Research and Development
Hayley Wickenheiser Assistant General Manager, Player Development
Ryan Hardy Assistant General Manager, Minor League Operations

this was what i found as of Nov/23 , no idea if they're all still around and if they are in what capacity