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Blanick

Winter is coming
Sep 20, 2011
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Forgive me for not engaging your strawman argument. There are plenty of things that fans, ownership, coaches, and players might consider unacceptable that happen throughout the year to every contending team. That doesn't in and of itself justify what you think should be done.

But it is not just this current skid it is the alarming trend that no matter how much you try to wish it away isn't going away. The fact that we can't play with top teams in their own barn or even at all this year. That the same mistakes keep happening over and over and over and over and over again. The fact that so many of our star players have regressed this year into shells of what they once use to be.

I see players making fundamental execution mistakes. These aren't even related to scheme execution. Tonight's loss hinged on Jackman falling down untouched. Other guys are routinely getting caught puck-watching. Changing the coach to breathe "new life into the room" isn't going to magically stop those mistakes from happening.

Apparently neither is leaving in Hitch as the coach. When these mistakes happen and start to make a trend whose job is it to make sure they get fixed? If these mistakes were happening for a couple of weeks and then got turned around then fine no problem whatsoever but we are now nearly halfway through the season and still seeing the same problems. To me that says they either haven't been addressed or haven't been addressed correctly. Perhaps I said it the wrong way in the original post but "breathing new life into the room" would be one of the benefits of bringing in a new coach. Get the players attention, get them up and excited to go out and learn something new, a fresh approach.

What I want to see from the coach is big picture adjustments. We've been complaining about the forwards not applying backside pressure. Tonight they did. We've been complaining about the defensemen backing in. The last few games they've generally been stepping up at the line. We've been complaining about soft gaps. Those have been closing. I'm (gradually) seeing the scheme adjustments I've been hoping to see, so I think Hitchcock is doing his job.

Great any estimate as to how long these gradual adjustments are going to take because despite everyone's attitude being that we are a playoff lock I think that is far from true at this point. We are very close to being on the outside looking in. Also, why exactly haven't we seen these "gradual adjustments" since day one because these issues have been there since day one and nobody was complaining because everybody was riding hot goaltending and the STL line, even Hitch. Now that those have cooled and were losing the adjustments come.

I'm not going to go back through every game log to compile a percentage against good teams, but after a pretty brutal start to the season, the PP scheming and personnel usage has improved significantly. I still disagree with some things I see here and there, but they're making in-game adjustments and I generally think they legitimately pose a threat. It's not some mirage built solely upon their play against weak teams.

Oh but I think it is. I did look up the number and against the top teams in the west (NSH, CHI, LA, ANA, SJ) we are 6/39 on the PP or just above 15%. More than 8% points lower than our league wide PP%. That 15% is from total of 12 games, 8 of which we scored the great big zero on the PP. In fact four of those six came off the back to back against the LA Kings in mid December when they were struggling badly.

The PK has been disappointing pretty much all year. There's a lot of things that I think factor into that, but you don't fire a head coach over that either.

Just another ugly piece to a very ugly puzzle.

I'm not using injury and illness as a blanket excuse to absolve anyone (or everyone) from all blame, but I think it's pretty short-sighted to believe that doesn't affect how teams/players are playing. By far our best goalie has played all of 15 games this year. Things like that matter.

I just don't even understand what you are trying to say here. Yes of course they matter but I would be hard pressed to find a game this year in which we played where the other team had all their players 100%. One of our big strengths going into this year was depth so that an injury bug wouldn't cripple us. You say your not using it as an excuse and then you use it as an excuse.

I can go back through almost any year and find a contender that has suffered through an extended slump due to those reasons. It would be hard to find a year when one or more teams didn't.

Again it is not just this slump, it's the trend. This alarming trend that has been going on for more than just this year. Hitch did a great job he came in to a team that was struggling to make the playoffs and got us over that hump but I just don't think he is the guy to get us over that next hump and on our way to the cup.

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Ranksu

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Apr 28, 2014
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This is best thing to start Saturday morning. Drink cup a coffee and read meltdown GTD :cf:

Just FIRE everybody.
 

Blanick

Winter is coming
Sep 20, 2011
15,867
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St. Louis
This is best thing to start Saturday morning. Drink cup a coffee and read meltdown GTD :cf:

Just FIRE everybody.

Honestly I don't really see a meltdown at all unless you were talking about me. I feel very little posting tonight has been rage induced. As a matter of fact I was utterly calm throughout the whole game tonight and now I am sitting here playing AC:Unity anxiously awaiting Easton's next reply. I have quite enjoyed going back and forth with him tonight because even though I strongly disagree with him I respect his opinion and consider him one of the smartest on this board. He is wrong on this though, that I am sure of.:)
 

frostyflo

Registered User
Jan 29, 2009
3,320
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let's look at the positives:

-most of the negative bandwagoners have dissapeared, haven't they? ;)

-guys show balls ths season. no way we come back 3 times in one game against a top team in the last few seasons.
we came back pretty often this season. the mental weakness is now that we can't finish em, we slow off and need too much energy in coming from behind IMO.
 

Ranksu

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Honestly I don't really see a meltdown at all unless you were talking about me. I feel very little posting tonight has been rage induced. As a matter of fact I was utterly calm throughout the whole game tonight and now I am sitting here playing AC:Unity anxiously awaiting Easton's next reply. I have quite enjoyed going back and forth with him tonight because even though I strongly disagree with him I respect his opinion and consider him one of the smartest on this board. He is wrong on this though, that I am sure of.:)

I'm not quoting you just generally this atmosphere here when well played game (what most of here is saying) on road trip against tough Home teams (western) we loose 1 goal difference.

I cannot speak game nothing, cus only saw 3minutes. So I close my mouth. Just reading your thoughts about this game and mostly how some players performed.

Gotta ask you guys now. Was Lehterä as bad what couple guys here sayed? I wouldnt mind if he goes 3rd line C and maybe wake him up to play like he should be. I have noticed couple last games that he isnt pushing so hard like first 20GP when season started, he was flying. Maybe these B2B (road games) games are burning him down, idk.

Tomorrow is against Sharks who got under they belt 3-0 W against Ducks couple days ago on away game. Not gonna be easy game.

* * *

Overally I don't understand this our team has upgraded every year and on paper this team is very good. I think we should wait until Schwartz is back and we can see how this team is playing when everybody is healthy. Then we can questionable players and coaching stuff. Like I have sayed all year, end of spring we can finally see what team is capable. I don't mind if we loose now. I just hope everybody is healthy on spring.
 

Blanick

Winter is coming
Sep 20, 2011
15,867
10,821
St. Louis
I'm not quoting you just generally this atmosphere here when well played game (what most of here is saying) on road trip against tough Home teams (western) we loose 1 goal difference.

I cannot speak game nothing, cus only saw 3minutes. So I close my mouth. Just reading your thoughts about this game and mostly how some players performed.

Gotta ask you guys now. Was Lehterä as bad what couple guys here sayed? I wouldnt mind if he goes 3rd line C and maybe wake him up to play like he should be. I have noticed couple last games that he isnt pushing so hard like first 20GP when season started, he was flying. Maybe these B2B (road games) games are burning him down, idk.

Tomorrow is against Sharks who got under they belt 3-0 W against Ducks couple days ago on away game. Not gonna be easy game.

* * *

Overally I don't understand this our team has upgraded every year and on paper this team is very good. I think we should wait until Schwartz is back and we can see how this team is playing when everybody is healthy. Then we can questionable players and coaching stuff. Like I have sayed all year, end of spring we can finally see what team is capable. I don't mind if we loose now. I just hope everybody is healthy on spring.

I would say Lehtera had a "OK" game. He created a couple of chances but also took a couple of bad penalties.
 

EastonBlues22

Registered User
Nov 25, 2003
14,807
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But it is not just this current skid it is the alarming trend that no matter how much you try to wish it away isn't going away. The fact that we can't play with top teams in their own barn or even at all this year. That the same mistakes keep happening over and over and over and over and over again. The fact that so many of our star players have regressed this year into shells of what they once use to be.
I'm not wishing anything away. I'm not sure what you consider a "top team", but we've more than held our own against them this year at home. A lot of our players started off pretty slowly, but most of them are trending in the right direction. Players aren't continuing to get even worse, and what overall regression we've seen this year isn't part of some multi-year trend.

Apparently neither is leaving in Hitch as the coach. When these mistakes happen and start to make a trend whose job is it to make sure they get fixed? If these mistakes were happening for a couple of weeks and then got turned around then fine no problem whatsoever but we are now nearly halfway through the season and still seeing the same problems. To me that says they either haven't been addressed or haven't been addressed correctly. Perhaps I said it the wrong way in the original post but "breathing new life into the room" would be one of the benefits of bringing in a new coach. Get the players attention, get them up and excited to go out and learn something new, a fresh approach.
It's on the players to fix basic execution mistakes (like marking your man instead of puck watching). It's on the coaches to fix scheme execution mistakes. Coaches can (and do) point out basic player mistakes, but they don't have the time to hold a player's hand and get them to re-learn basic things that players have been taught to execute since peewee...that's not what they are paid to do, and it's not what practice time is for. It's on the players to clean up those parts of their game. If the players aren't interested in doing that, then it's time to get new players.

Great any estimate as to how long these gradual adjustments are going to take because despite everyone's attitude being that we are a playoff lock I think that is far from true at this point. We are very close to being on the outside looking in. Also, why exactly haven't we seen these "gradual adjustments" since day one because these issues have been there since day one and nobody was complaining because everybody was riding hot goaltending and the STL line, even Hitch. Now that those have cooled and were losing the adjustments come.
Coaches are tinkering with things all the time, so there's always something to work on. What we've needed to work on now probably wasn't our primary concern two months ago. At the beginning of the season, teams are often focused on building chemistry and getting people on the same page as far as basic scheme execution. As the season progresses and certain flaws prove to be chronic/costly, then attention turns to trying to iron out the kinks.

As for how long it will take? Who knows. You can't fix everything at once, and you can't fix anything instantly. Getting a team to change its collective habits is a not an easy or fast process. It takes weeks of doing things the "right" way before it starts becoming muscle memory, so a month or more to turn a few big things around isn't unreasonable. If the Blues were playing better on an individual level, it would mask many of the failures in team execution. That could turn around at any time.

Oh but I think it is. I did look up the number and against the top teams in the west (NSH, CHI, LA, ANA, SJ) we are 6/39 on the PP or just above 15%. More than 8% points lower than our league wide PP%. That 15% is from total of 12 games, 8 of which we scored the great big zero on the PP. In fact four of those six came off the back to back against the LA Kings in mid December when they were struggling badly.
Of course the Blues PP numbers are going to look worse than the their total numbers if you cherry-pick out their performance against a select group of good teams. That doesn't mean that the PP sucks, or that it is ineffective. It just means that it's generally harder to score against good teams. As a whole, other good teams are going to have the same problem.

Those five teams combine to hold all other teams to a 17% PP effectiveness against them (83% kill rate). A 15% showing against them is hardly out of line with that, especially in a small sample size. In the past, I'm sure the Blues were well below that, so there's been improvement there.

Did you happen to compare the Blues PP% against those teams against their PP% against the same teams (i.e. CHI vs ANA/LA/SJ/NSH; NSH vs CHI/LA/ANA/SJ; etc.)? The number you have for the Blues will be more meaningful if it comes in far below or above the equivalent numbers for the other contenders.

I just don't even understand what you are trying to say here. Yes of course they matter but I would be hard pressed to find a game this year in which we played where the other team had all their players 100%. One of our big strengths going into this year was depth so that an injury bug wouldn't cripple us. You say your not using it as an excuse and then you use it as an excuse.
I said that illness/injury are not something that should absolve a team or its players from ALL blame, but it is something that should be factored in when considering how a team is performing (or when thinking about firing a coach).

How many good teams have we played that had their starting goalie injured at the time? Their second leading scorer?

We've been without one, or the other, or both (plus a top 4 defender) for most of our games outside the first month of the season (which was marred by an ugly collective start, both in terms of personal play and team execution). The team execution and personal level of play have picked up significantly since that first month, but we've lost some key players for extended periods to offset the gain. At no point this season has the team been healthy and playing well at the same time. That's relatively unusual considering we are almost halfway through the season.

If you're making a final judgment about this team's abilities (or inability, I suppose), it seems premature to do so before you've ever seen it healthy and playing well.

Again it is not just this slump, it's the trend. This alarming trend that has been going on for more than just this year. Hitch did a great job he came in to a team that was struggling to make the playoffs and got us over that hump but I just don't think he is the guy to get us over that next hump and on our way to the cup.
I don't see the same trends you appear to be seeing, so I guess it's not much of a surprise that we're coming to different conclusions. I'm going to agree to disagree on this topic for now. Perhaps I'll revisit it with you in a month or so.
 

Dbrownss

Registered User
Jan 5, 2014
31,359
8,734
I don't think I'll be reading though all this. But I think the Blues played very well against a team that usually cracked them with ease. Duck goals were off defensive breakdowns. They weren't goals were they wore them down or simply out skilled them. 1 goal...1 goal because Jackman sucks utter ass and needs to be benched for a few games. That was it. Instead if being blown out of the water, we've lost scoring games by 1 goal to the big 3 boogie men teams. While we shouldn't be jumping for joy, I don't think this team is really in a bad spot. I think Pie has turned a corner...defensively, his offense still sucks though . But now he doesn't look bad in his zone. This team will pull it together.


Also Backes didn't throw a fit, that's good. That's a couple games now
 

TK 421

Barbashev eats babies pass it on
Sep 12, 2007
6,463
6,118
Someone brought up Lowry as head coach. I'm on board with that.
Dave was one of the hardest workers to wear the note. He coaches in the CHL and is an assistant for Canada at the WJC right now. He's well regarded at the CHL level.
 

TheOrganist

Don't Call Him Alex
Feb 21, 2006
3,929
1,218
The Blues have definitely had a tendency in the past to let their opponent dictate the style of game that they play. This year, I feel like when they stray from their style it is more from their own doing than their opponents. I'm not happy about that at all, but at the same time it's less concerning than where they were previously. At least they have a bit more control over their own fate.

Other teams are better at sticking to their particular styles, but they still require 100% investment to be consistently competitive against other good teams. That's not unique to the Blues (or Hitchcock's system) by any stretch of the imagination, and I feel like it's misleading for the article to imply otherwise.

I think you can make the argument that the Blues as a collective group veer from the system because they've outgrown it. Hitchcock still views his talented top 9 as a unit that scores "off the grind." He said as much before the Colorado game. I hated that quote. He's still coaching under the assumption that this is a sum of the parts group that has some good pieces but it's the system, and it's the players adhering to the details of that system on a nightly basis that brings the best out of the team. That's the appropriate mindest of a coach who is coaxing the most he can out of untalented group of 18 skaters but not for a guy coaching a talented, $70 million team. As Robb K said well in the other thread, I think you're seeing a lot of evidence that the players are losing interest playing this way. Especially when it's brought them zero post-season success.

I wouldn't be as critical if so many good, individual players weren't underperforming. And I wouldn't question a coach I truly respect if the Blues weren't on pace to have their worst possession numbers since 2009-10 with the most talented team on paper they've had since 2002-03. It's pretty much unanimously agreed by the fanbase that despite the winning streaks this year, the Blues have not fired on all cylinders for any extended period. They still can't beat good teams. And at a certain point, with the amount of pressure on the team this year to do something significant in the playoffs, the head coach of an aimless, talented team with no identity deserves to take the fall.
 

Meatwagon

Blues=Overrated
Nov 15, 2010
2,258
129
Bi-polar Express
Honestly I don't really see a meltdown at all unless you were talking about me. I feel very little posting tonight has been rage induced. As a matter of fact I was utterly calm throughout the whole game tonight and now I am sitting here playing AC:Unity anxiously awaiting Easton's next reply. I have quite enjoyed going back and forth with him tonight because even though I strongly disagree with him I respect his opinion and consider him one of the smartest on this board. He is wrong on this though, that I am sure of.:)

How do you like AC:Unity? I'm thinking about getting Rouge as a personal graduation present to myself. I heard the game itself is unbelievably gorgeous, but the plot/gameplay is still crap, Unity that is. I've been a very loyal Creed player and this release was the first one were I wasn't waiting in line at midnight to get, (came right in the middle of having 7 term papers due.)

AC2/Brotherhood are my 2 favorite all time games, maybe tied with FF10(1st release). Rouge looks cool, but I don't have a PS4 and was curious to get someone's else's opinion on how Unity is executed on the new system.

Thanks in advance!
 
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