Å ťastný vs Cournoyer

[unknown33]

It's closer than people make it out to be.
Need some time to come to a conclusion.

 

[seventieslord]

Part of the discussion is about building a team around a player, post #8.

Starting with that premise and limiting the discussion to skaters who are in the HHOF, as Stastny and Cournoyer are, and the era where plus/minus data is available.Preference given to those whose complete career data is available since I want to avoid the hypothetical issue that a Gordie Howe or a Jean Beliveau may have had a negative plus / minus.

Will also add a disclaimer - Center is the only position where you find HHOFers with a - Plus/Minus

Let's build two teams A & B based on the following criteria:

6 defensemen (3 pairings)
12 forwards (4RW, 4C, 4LW)

subject to the following Team A has the players with the best positive plus/minus record in the HHOF at their respective position while Team B has worst negative or positive plus/minus.

Team A(Best +/-)
Center: Wayne Gretzky, Bobby Clarke, Bryan Trottier, Jacques Lemaire
RW: Guy Lafleur, Mike Bossy, Jari Kurri, Yvan Cournoyer,
LW: Steve Shutt, Bill Barber, Clark Gillies, Bob Gainey,
Defense: Larry Robinson, Bobby Orr, Denis Potvin, Ray Bourque, Serge Savard, Scott Stevens,

Team B (Worst +/-)
Center: Bernie Federko, Dale Hawerchuk, Peter Stastny, Ron Francis,
(only players with negative +/-)
RW: Brett Hull,Lanny McDonald, Mike Gartner, Cam Neely,
LW: Luc Robitaille, Michel Goulet, Bobby Hull*, John Bucyk*
Defense: Brian Leetch, Borje Salming, Viacheslov Fetisov, Larry Murphy, Rod Langway, Paul Coffey.

* = spotted Team B two due to a lack of criteria LWs in the HHOF.

Would strongly suggest that Team A is the much better team.

As for your three options. None of the above. Tend to take a forensic audit approach to data. Ask the basic question - "Yes, things may balance on the financials but the numbers or ratios do not match the industry norms, in fact they are significantly off, so what is wrong?" Let's investigate a little bit.

Specifically in this case. I happen to know that Peter Stastny is one of the few HHOFers with a negative +/- for his complete career, regular season and playoffs. Yet posters are praising him as if he is the second coming. Building teams around him, etc. So I ask the obvious question how well would a team do - all HHOFers modeled on taking players with the worst +/- at each skater position. How would it look against a team taking the players with the best +/- at each skater position?

Legit academic procedure and exercise.

wow... you are actually serious.

Have fun with this one, guys.

 

[Hank Chinaski]

Well, the Roadrunner finally got his first vote from me. Only it was by mistake, I should never be allowed around here without my morning coffee. D'oh!

If a mod could fix this, it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[BigDucky]

Part of the discussion is about building a team around a player, post #8.

Starting with that premise and limiting the discussion to skaters who are in the HHOF, as Stastny and Cournoyer are, and the era where plus/minus data is available.Preference given to those whose complete career data is available since I want to avoid the hypothetical issue that a Gordie Howe or a Jean Beliveau may have had a negative plus / minus.

Will also add a disclaimer - Center is the only position where you find HHOFers with a - Plus/Minus

Let's build two teams A & B based on the following criteria:

6 defensemen (3 pairings)
12 forwards (4RW, 4C, 4LW)

subject to the following Team A has the players with the best positive plus/minus record in the HHOF at their respective position while Team B has worst negative or positive plus/minus.

Team A(Best +/-)
Center: Wayne Gretzky, Bobby Clarke, Bryan Trottier, Jacques Lemaire
RW: Guy Lafleur, Mike Bossy, Jari Kurri, Yvan Cournoyer,
LW: Steve Shutt, Bill Barber, Clark Gillies, Bob Gainey,
Defense: Larry Robinson, Bobby Orr, Denis Potvin, Ray Bourque, Serge Savard, Scott Stevens,

Team B (Worst +/-)
Center: Bernie Federko, Dale Hawerchuk, Peter Stastny, Ron Francis,
(only players with negative +/-)
RW: Brett Hull,Lanny McDonald, Mike Gartner, Cam Neely,
LW: Luc Robitaille, Michel Goulet, Bobby Hull*, John Bucyk*
Defense: Brian Leetch, Borje Salming, Viacheslov Fetisov, Larry Murphy, Rod Langway, Paul Coffey.

* = spotted Team B two due to a lack of criteria LWs in the HHOF.

Would strongly suggest that Team A is the much better team.

As for your three options. None of the above. Tend to take a forensic audit approach to data. Ask the basic question - "Yes, things may balance on the financials but the numbers or ratios do not match the industry norms, in fact they are significantly off, so what is wrong?" Let's investigate a little bit.

Specifically in this case. I happen to know that Peter Stastny is one of the few HHOFers with a negative +/- for his complete career, regular season and playoffs. Yet posters are praising him as if he is the second coming. Building teams around him, etc. So I ask the obvious question how well would a team do - all HHOFers modeled on taking players with the worst +/- at each skater position. How would it look against a team taking the players with the best +/- at each skater position?

Legit academic procedure and exercise.

All this really proves is that players who played for dynasties have a higher career plus/minus.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Yes Kyle.

Career minus player may have scored a lot more but the career plus player, who was never a minus player over the course of a season knows how to win, main criteria for building a franchise.

Here's another way to look at the +/- of the two...

Listed below is each player's team rank in +/- during prime years, ages 24-32

P. Stastny: 1, 14, 2, 8, 4, 10, 22, 4, 17 Average rank = 9.11
Cournoyer: 7, 10, 16, 7, 6, 5, 6, 15, 7 Average rank = 8.77


Notes
24 was chosen as the starting year because it is the age Stastny was when he started playing in the NHL and, conveniently, the age Cournoyer was when www.hockeyreference.com starts keeping +/- stats.

32 was chosen rather arbitrarily as the cutoff age (I tried to lean towards the later side). One should also note that if you look at the data, cutting it off earlier, say at 29, 30, or 31 would not have made much of a difference, and would have in fact, favored Stastny.

Players that played less than 35 games were not included for team rank

 

[raleh]

Part of the discussion is about building a team around a player, post #8.

Starting with that premise and limiting the discussion to skaters who are in the HHOF, as Stastny and Cournoyer are, and the era where plus/minus data is available.Preference given to those whose complete career data is available since I want to avoid the hypothetical issue that a Gordie Howe or a Jean Beliveau may have had a negative plus / minus.

Will also add a disclaimer - Center is the only position where you find HHOFers with a - Plus/Minus

Let's build two teams A & B based on the following criteria:

6 defensemen (3 pairings)
12 forwards (4RW, 4C, 4LW)

subject to the following Team A has the players with the best positive plus/minus record in the HHOF at their respective position while Team B has worst negative or positive plus/minus.

Team A(Best +/-)
Center: Wayne Gretzky, Bobby Clarke, Bryan Trottier, Jacques Lemaire
RW: Guy Lafleur, Mike Bossy, Jari Kurri, Yvan Cournoyer,
LW: Steve Shutt, Bill Barber, Clark Gillies, Bob Gainey,
Defense: Larry Robinson, Bobby Orr, Denis Potvin, Ray Bourque, Serge Savard, Scott Stevens,

Team B (Worst +/-)
Center: Bernie Federko, Dale Hawerchuk, Peter Stastny, Ron Francis,
(only players with negative +/-)
RW: Brett Hull,Lanny McDonald, Mike Gartner, Cam Neely,
LW: Luc Robitaille, Michel Goulet, Bobby Hull*, John Bucyk*
Defense: Brian Leetch, Borje Salming, Viacheslov Fetisov, Larry Murphy, Rod Langway, Paul Coffey.

* = spotted Team B two due to a lack of criteria LWs in the HHOF.

Would strongly suggest that Team A is the much better team.

As for your three options. None of the above. Tend to take a forensic audit approach to data. Ask the basic question - "Yes, things may balance on the financials but the numbers or ratios do not match the industry norms, in fact they are significantly off, so what is wrong?" Let's investigate a little bit.

Specifically in this case. I happen to know that Peter Stastny is one of the few HHOFers with a negative +/- for his complete career, regular season and playoffs. Yet posters are praising him as if he is the second coming. Building teams around him, etc. So I ask the obvious question how well would a team do - all HHOFers modeled on taking players with the worst +/- at each skater position. How would it look against a team taking the players with the best +/- at each skater position?

Legit academic procedure and exercise.

Jeepers....whatever you're smoking, I would love to have some.

 

[seventieslord]

Here's another way to look at the +/- of the two...

Listed below is each player's team rank in +/- during prime years, ages 24-32

P. Stastny: 1, 14, 2, 8, 4, 10, 22, 4, 17 Average rank = 9.11
Cournoyer: 7, 10, 16, 7, 6, 5, 6, 15, 7 Average rank = 8.77


Notes
24 was chosen as the starting year because it is the age Stastny was when he started playing in the NHL and, conveniently, the age Cournoyer was when www.hockeyreference.com starts keeping +/- stats.

32 was chosen rather arbitrarily as the cutoff age (I tried to lean towards the later side). One should also note that if you look at the data, cutting it off earlier, say at 29, 30, or 31 would not have made much of a difference, and would have in fact, favored Stastny.

Players that played less than 35 games were not included for team rank

Why even indulge in this?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Dynasties

All this really proves is that players who played for dynasties have a higher career plus/minus.

Nice to know that Ray Bourque played for a dynasty Boston Bruins team.

Players played for and contributed to dynasties because they could play defense.

Simply a question of which side of the chicken or egg analogy one favors.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Why even indulge in this?

Ummmm...bored at work???

 

[Canadiens1958]

Interesting.........

Here's another way to look at the +/- of the two...

Listed below is each player's team rank in +/- during prime years, ages 24-32

P. Stastny: 1, 14, 2, 8, 4, 10, 22, 4, 17 Average rank = 9.11
Cournoyer: 7, 10, 16, 7, 6, 5, 6, 15, 7 Average rank = 8.77


Notes
24 was chosen as the starting year because it is the age Stastny was when he started playing in the NHL and, conveniently, the age Cournoyer was when www.hockeyreference.com starts keeping +/- stats.

32 was chosen rather arbitrarily as the cutoff age (I tried to lean towards the later side). One should also note that if you look at the data, cutting it off earlier, say at 29, 30, or 31 would not have made much of a difference, and would have in fact, favored Stastny.

Players that played less than 35 games were not included for team rank

Let's apply your analysis to education.

Suppose Cournoyer was in the advanced/university stream thru grade and high school where the student's had to maintain a minimum 85% grade, while Stastny was in the slow stream where student's hung out with weak teachers and a bare bones curriculum until they could legally leave school at 16.

Doubt that your conclusion would be that Stastny was the superior student.

 

[Darth Joker]

Stastny was a franchise player that you could build around.

Cournoyer was one of the very first pieces you'd pick up to build around a Stastny. Cournoyer was a perfect complimentary piece; the ideal sort of player to have as primary support to your franchise player. We see this in how accomplished Cournoyer was. He's a winner, and if you're a Peter Stastny or a Guy LaFleur, you love having this guy on your team.

However... Franchise player > Complimentary player, no matter how good the complimentary piece is at being a complimentary piece. You couldn't build a team around Cournoyer.

Beyond that, the statistical gulf between the two players makes it just about impossible to justify taking Cournoyer over Statsny.


I think a better match-up for Cournoyer is probably somebody like Bill Barber.

Both played between 900 and 1000 games in total, both scored over 400 goals and 800 points, and both were complimentary players on Stanley Cup winners.

 

[BigDucky]

Nice to know that Ray Bourque played for a dynasty Boston Bruins team.

Players played for and contributed to dynasties because they could play defense.

Simply a question of which side of the chicken or egg analogy one favors.

13/18 players for team A played for a dynasty. 15/18 if you want to count the 70's Flyers, the last non-dynasty team to make 3 straight finals appearances, winning twice. Also, I noticed that if you didn't "spot" team B Bobby Hull and Johnny Bucyk, Bob Gainey would have made it.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Franchise Player Comparables

Stastny was a franchise player that you could build around.

Cournoyer was one of the very first pieces you'd pick up to build around a Stastny. Cournoyer was a perfect complimentary piece; the ideal sort of player to have as primary support to your franchise player. We see this in how accomplished Cournoyer was. He's a winner, and if you're a Peter Stastny or a Guy LaFleur, you love having this guy on your team.

However... Franchise player > Complimentary player, no matter how good the complimentary piece is at being a complimentary piece. You couldn't build a team around Cournoyer.

Beyond that, the statistical gulf between the two players makes it just about impossible to justify taking Cournoyer over Statsny.


I think a better match-up for Cournoyer is probably somebody like Bill Barber.

Both played between 900 and 1000 games in total, both scored over 400 goals and 800 points, and both were complimentary players on Stanley Cup winners.

Let's be fair and compare franchise players at the same position - center. Peter Stastny to Joe Sakic, both started with the same franchise, same weak coaching, equivalent supporting players.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Bob Gainey

13/18 players for team A played for a dynasty. 15/18 if you want to count the 70's Flyers, the last non-dynasty team to make 3 straight finals appearances, winning twice. Also, I noticed that if you didn't "spot" team B Bobby Hull and Johnny Bucyk, Bob Gainey would have made it.

Bob Gainey made team A so he cannot make team B

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Let's apply your analysis to education.

Suppose Cournoyer was in the advanced/university stream thru grade and high school where the student's had to maintain a minimum 85% grade, while Stastny was in the slow stream where student's hung out with weak teachers and a bare bones curriculum until they could legally leave school at 16.

Doubt that your conclusion would be that Stastny was the superior student.

This analogy does not hold water. In your university setting, all of the students acheive their grades individually with no influence or help from other students. In hockey, an individual player's plus/minus is greatly affected by teammates, both positively and negatively.

 

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

Let's be fair and compare franchise players at the same position - center. Peter Stastny to Joe Sakic, both started with the same franchise, same weak coaching, equivalent supporting players.

Who were the equivalent supporting players to Patrick Roy, Peter Forsberg, and Adam Foote?

 

[Shawa666]

Well Roy never played for the Nords.

 

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

Well Roy never played for the Nords.

Examining only their time as Nords, Sakic was a -101 while Stastny was a -11.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Not So...

This analogy does not hold water. In your university setting, all of the students acheive their grades individually with no influence or help from other students. In hockey, an individual player's plus/minus is greatly affected by teammates, both positively and negatively.

Actually it holds very well. First reread my analogy - I was not talking about university but the university stream leading to university. The legal age of 16 qualifier should have it obvious.

Grades are a function of team work on projects, competitive elements for scholarships within the school or to get an academic free ride at university in the future. Elite students are very competitive within a class just as hockey players are very competitive within a team. There is a drive to excel and be given more responsibility and opportunity.

There is also a drive to surpass the results achieved by alumnae, outperform the results of classes from previous years at various academic competitions.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Peter Stastny vs Joe Sakic

Who were the equivalent supporting players to Patrick Roy, Peter Forsberg, and Adam Foote?

By the end of the 1992-93 season Joe Sakic supported by Mats Sundin, Adam Foote, Owen Nolan and Bryan Hextall had transformed a 31 point team - the residue left from Peter Stastny's era in Quebec to a 104 point team that during the regular season finished ahead of the Canadiens with Patrick Roy.Sadly Pierre Page managed to lose the team and a 2-0 lead in the playoffs.

Peter Stastny joined a 61 point Nordique team and with the support of Michel Goulet, Dale Hunter, Anton and Marian Stastny, Dan Bouchard, Normand Rochefort topped out at the mid 90 point level before plummeting to the 30-40 point level.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

By the end of the 1992-93 season Joe Sakic supported by Mats Sundin, Adam Foote, Owen Nolan and Bryan Hextall had transformed a 31 point team - the residue left from Peter Stastny's era in Quebec to a 104 point team that during the regular season finished ahead of the Canadiens with Patrick Roy.Sadly Pierre Page managed to lose the team and a 2-0 lead in the playoffs.

Peter Stastny joined a 61 point Nordique team and with the support of Michel Goulet, Dale Hunter, Anton and Marian Stastny, Dan Bouchard, Normand Rochefort topped out at the mid 90 point level before plummeting to the 30-40 point level.

Wow - you've really got an axe to grind against Peter Stastny.

 

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

By the end of the 1992-93 season Joe Sakic supported by Mats Sundin, Adam Foote, Owen Nolan and Bryan Hextall had transformed a 31 point team - the residue left from Peter Stastny's era in Quebec to a 104 point team that during the regular season finished ahead of the Canadiens with Patrick Roy.Sadly Pierre Page managed to lose the team and a 2-0 lead in the playoffs.

Peter Stastny joined a 61 point Nordique team and with the support of Michel Goulet, Dale Hunter, Anton and Marian Stastny, Dan Bouchard, Normand Rochefort topped out at the mid 90 point level before plummeting to the 30-40 point level.

Given that their supporting casts were equal, Stastny was only a -11 over his Nordique career while Sakic was a -101. What conclusions can we draw from the grand-daddy of all stats, +/- ?

 

[tommygunn]

I think a better match-up for Cournoyer is probably somebody like Bill Barber.

Both played between 900 and 1000 games in total, both scored over 400 goals and 800 points, and both were complimentary players on Stanley Cup winners.

If that poll were made, it'd be a landslide victory for Cournoyer, IMO.. much like the Stastny rout in this poll.

 

[tommygunn]

By the end of the 1992-93 season Joe Sakic supported by Mats Sundin, Adam Foote, Owen Nolan and Bryan Hextall..

Ron Hextall you mean..

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think Pavel Bure vs. Yvon Cournoyer would be a better comparison.