Å ťastný vs Cournoyer

[Ziostilon]

Clearly a difference in physical stature. Another thing is Stastny didn't even start his NHL career until Cournoyer concluded his.
So different eras in speaking, would adjusted stats tell the tale.

Who is the better player?
Peter Å ťastný or Yvan Serge Cournoyer

Click to read more...

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Cournoyer was a great player, but a complimentary one. You could build a franchise around Stastny. No knock on Cournoyer, but this really shouldn't be that close.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Agreed. What about these two makes you think that this poll will be reasonably close?

 

[Ziostilon]

Cournoyer has blazing speed and could score a good chunk of goals

also look at the playoff resume and the amount of cups. i don't personally take that into much account.

but i've seen other people use amount of Stanley Cups as a averaging factor

 

[Shawa666]

I'm completely biased on this one.

Peter by a couple of miles

 

[revolverjgw]

Stastny, not close. Cournoyer had maybe one season where he was an elite player.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The more I look at Cournoyer's career, the less I can understand how anyone has him as a Top 100 All-Time player.

 

[Big Phil]

I think he had more than one season as an elite NHL player. He was a 2nd team all-star 4 times and you'd have to think 1969, 1971 and 1972 at the very least that he was elite. Then there is the 1973 playoffs and Conn Smythe Trophy in which he was flawless. I think Cournoyer in his prime tends to get overlooked. He was lethal from about 1968-'73. This is when the true "Roadrunner" showed up. I've always felt he stood out in the 1972 Summit Series as well.

So, you do have to love his intangibles as a winner and being a big part of it, but like another poster said you would be hard pressed to not take Stastny to build your franchise around. He was just a marvelous player and too hard to pass up in this poll.

I do like the comparison even though Stastny should win this by a comfortable margin. It still generates good discussion, which is why we are here

 

[Canadiens1958]

Yvan Cournoyer

Stastny, not close. Cournoyer had maybe one season where he was an elite player.

Yvan Cournoyer:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/c/cournyv01.html

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/html/spot_oneononep198201.htm

Four time second team All Star, Conn Smythe 1973, captain of the Canadiens 1975-79, career +/- over 200,member of 10 Stanley Cup winning teams, 1972 Team Canada.

Hard to accomplish more during a career.

Peter Stastny - Calder Trophy, negative NHL career plus / minus,
performed well in the Olympics.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/s/stastpe01.html

 

[Kyle McMahon]

The more I look at Cournoyer's career, the less I can understand how anyone has him as a Top 100 All-Time player.

Cournoyer does have an exceptional playoff resume, but I agree that top-100 is probably a reach. I do think he sort of gets lost in the shuffle, strange as it may seem. In between the Beliveau dynasty and the Lafleur dynasty, Cournoyer was pretty darn good on the early 70's Montreal Cup-winners.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Yvan Cournoyer:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/c/cournyv01.html

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/html/spot_oneononep198201.htm

Four time second team All Star, Conn Smythe 1973, captain of the Canadiens 1975-79, career +/- over 200,member of 10 Stanley Cup winning teams, 1972 Team Canada.

Hard to accomplish more during a career.

Peter Stastny - Calder Trophy, negative NHL career plus / minus,
performed well in the Olympics.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/s/stastpe01.html

Almost impossible I'd say. But the OP is asking who the better player was, not who the more accomplished player was.

 

[tommygunn]

I love Yvan.. but Stastny was the much better player. Close the thread, please..

 

[Canadiens1958]

Well

Almost impossible I'd say. But the OP is asking who the better player was, not who the more accomplished player was.

Yes Kyle.

Career minus player may have scored a lot more but the career plus player, who was never a minus player over the course of a season knows how to win, main criteria for building a franchise.

 

[seventieslord]

The more I look at Cournoyer's career, the less I can understand how anyone has him as a Top 100 All-Time player.

Agree.

Yes Kyle.

Career minus player may have scored a lot more but the career plus player, who was never a minus player over the course of a season knows how to win, main criteria for building a franchise.

You try to look like you have all kinds of depth to your hockey knowledge, but then you go and use points like this as the basis of your arguments and it borders on buffoonery.

 

[Maupin Fan]

Yes Kyle.

Career minus player may have scored a lot more but the career plus player, who was never a minus player over the course of a season knows how to win, main criteria for building a franchise.

Well in that case, I would definitely start my franchise with Rejean Houle over Stastny since he was also never a minus player over the course of a season either. Maybe he could be a player/GM!!!

 

[VMBM]

Stastny all the way.

It's really hard to find an area where Cournoyer was better. Speed? Even then, I would probably give the edge to Stastny in overall skating ability. Goal-scoring? Close, but still Stastny.

 

[seventieslord]

Stastny all the way.

It's really hard to find an area where Cournoyer was better. Speed? Even then, I would probably give the edge to Stastny in overall skating ability. Goal-scoring? Close, but still Stastny.

Knowing how to win and having a positive +/-!!!

 

[VMBM]

Knowing how to win and having a positive +/-!!!

Oh yeah, 10 cups to Stastny's 0!

Should've read C1958's post before I voted for that no-good loser Stastny.

 

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

edit you guys arent being serious.

Stastny was a superior player in every facet of the game. Cournoyer does have some great playoff performances and the Conn Smythe but Stastny was no slouch in the playoff department and led the Nords to some upset playoff victories.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

You try to look like you have all kinds of depth to your hockey knowledge, but then you go and use points like this as the basis of your arguments and it borders on buffoonery.

Plenty of knowledge, but often doesn't know how to combine it with logic/common sense to form a rational theory

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Career minus player may have scored a lot more but the career plus player, who was never a minus player over the course of a season knows how to win, main criteria for building a franchise.

Good Lord. Your credibility's going to take a hit with this statement.

Before we continue with questioning, did you make this statement because:

(1) You believe it.
(2) You're a Canadiens fan who wants support for "his" guy.
(3) You're having fun with us.

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

I believe Stastny was the 2nd leading scorer in the 80's, the highest scoring decade in history. More than Bossy, Messier, Trots, Savard, Hawerchuk, Kurri, Messier ect. That's a hell of an accomplishment considering some of the offensive accomplishments and players that decade.

Courny, althought I loved him as a player, never did anything like that. His biggest individual accomplishment might be being the best RW in hockey between the first retirement of Howe and the emergence of Lafleur, but even that's debateable.

 

[tony d]

Stastny, one of the top European NHL players of all-time.

 

[Dark Shadows]

Good Lord. Your credibility's going to take a hit with this statement.

Before we continue with questioning, did you make this statement because:

(1) You believe it.
(2) You're a Canadiens fan who wants support for "his" guy.
(3) You're having fun with us.

He had credibility to begin with?

Keep in mind C1958 also rates Gainey over Andy Bathgate, Henri Richard over Mike Bossy and Lemaire over Marcel Dionne and does not consider Hasek to be a top 50 all time player.

His posts are always heavily Habs biased and anti Euro.

There is literally no case to be made for Cournoyer over Stastny, yet here he is trying to make it, using the most team based stat in Hockey no less.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Simple

Good Lord. Your credibility's going to take a hit with this statement.

Before we continue with questioning, did you make this statement because:

(1) You believe it.
(2) You're a Canadiens fan who wants support for "his" guy.
(3) You're having fun with us.

Part of the discussion is about building a team around a player, post #8.

Starting with that premise and limiting the discussion to skaters who are in the HHOF, as Stastny and Cournoyer are, and the era where plus/minus data is available.Preference given to those whose complete career data is available since I want to avoid the hypothetical issue that a Gordie Howe or a Jean Beliveau may have had a negative plus / minus.

Will also add a disclaimer - Center is the only position where you find HHOFers with a - Plus/Minus

Let's build two teams A & B based on the following criteria:

6 defensemen (3 pairings)
12 forwards (4RW, 4C, 4LW)

subject to the following Team A has the players with the best positive plus/minus record in the HHOF at their respective position while Team B has worst negative or positive plus/minus.

Team A(Best +/-)
Center: Wayne Gretzky, Bobby Clarke, Bryan Trottier, Jacques Lemaire
RW: Guy Lafleur, Mike Bossy, Jari Kurri, Yvan Cournoyer,
LW: Steve Shutt, Bill Barber, Clark Gillies, Bob Gainey,
Defense: Larry Robinson, Bobby Orr, Denis Potvin, Ray Bourque, Serge Savard, Scott Stevens,

Team B (Worst +/-)
Center: Bernie Federko, Dale Hawerchuk, Peter Stastny, Ron Francis,
(only players with negative +/-)
RW: Brett Hull,Lanny McDonald, Mike Gartner, Cam Neely,
LW: Luc Robitaille, Michel Goulet, Bobby Hull*, John Bucyk*
Defense: Brian Leetch, Borje Salming, Viacheslov Fetisov, Larry Murphy, Rod Langway, Paul Coffey.

* = spotted Team B two due to a lack of criteria LWs in the HHOF.

Would strongly suggest that Team A is the much better team.

As for your three options. None of the above. Tend to take a forensic audit approach to data. Ask the basic question - "Yes, things may balance on the financials but the numbers or ratios do not match the industry norms, in fact they are significantly off, so what is wrong?" Let's investigate a little bit.

Specifically in this case. I happen to know that Peter Stastny is one of the few HHOFers with a negative +/- for his complete career, regular season and playoffs. Yet posters are praising him as if he is the second coming. Building teams around him, etc. So I ask the obvious question how well would a team do - all HHOFers modeled on taking players with the worst +/- at each skater position. How would it look against a team taking the players with the best +/- at each skater position?

Legit academic procedure and exercise.