It appears the good news bad news circumstance with Kucherov out may make this scenario moot. Had this not happened I believe moving Johnson would not only make your point true, I believe the realistic move may have been to sign and trade Cirelli and use the return asset to package with Johnson to move him. Cirelli could have brought a first which added to another asset would have been the best chance of moving Johnson that may have even preserved Tampa’s 2021 1R pick. I hate to see 86 down for the regular season but this may be a blessing in disguise.
Rumor: Zetterberg's LTIR contract for Tyler Johnson
- Thread starter Filthy Dangles
- Start date
Ghost of Ethan Hunt
The Official Ghost of Space Ghosts Monkey
I respectfully disagree & say this as a fan of TB too (my 3rd favorite team). I believe they'd have done a late 1st+ Hugo + Foote caliber trade to dump TJ or Gourde. Then move Killorn for less than full value in a hockey trade for pick(s). Hugo is one of 3 G propsects, 2 of which will compete for AHL time soon (if not for this season), & I've read Foote has skating/speed issue(s).
Cirelli is too important for a repeat chance, which looks really good right now...way too soon to say Dy***ty.
Essentially what you are saying is you would trade Johnson, Killorn, Foote and a good goaltending prospect plus a 1R pick for Cireelli and 3R pick. I cannot think of a single team in this league that would make that trade. So, why would you give up that much to keep him?
Ghost of Ethan Hunt
The Official Ghost of Space Ghosts Monkey
Not exactly saying that though. Cap/term/aging & declining asset (TJ), not in my Top6F, small, not physical, defensively suspect/below average etc. is why.
We agree on Johnson. But there was other ways to move him that would have meant giving up less assets. Trading Cirelli and packaging those assets would have prevented a lopsided deal to move Johnson’s contract. Of course now it is moot with the Kucherov injury. Johnson now has a better chance of staying in Tampa for this season and getting dealt or claimed later
Ghost of Ethan Hunt
The Official Ghost of Space Ghosts Monkey
Who cares about losing a "lopsided" TJ-dump trade. Instead you're proposing to lose a young 2C w/selke caliber 2way Dzone play...that's Way worse, the cup window is wide open for TB & losing Cirelli would've hurt their chances for more cups, now & the next 5yrs or so. I'll bet most TB & NHL fans would agree with me.
late 1st...Pfffttt
Hugo...not A Blue Chipper
Foote...also not A Blue Chipper, has skating issues
Big Freaking Deal. Keep the young 2C. Moot point anyways.
With what you suggest giving up to keep him you would think Cirelli is the next coming of Sergei Federov. I like Cirelli’s game, a LOT. But, again, had Kucherov’s injury not made this moot, the cost to this team to get cap compliant would have been greater to keep Cirelli in terms of roster players, prospects and draft picks than to trade him. That applies to both now and the future.
Speaking of the future, the salary cap will not only be flat this year but likely for the next three. Your logic does nothing to address that when you are giving up a 1R draft pick just to dump salary in a year when you also don’t have a second. In that environment, in the absence of future entry level contracts afforded by higher draft picks, teams will be forced to sign leftover aging veterans at modest cost. This is also more critical to teams now who will lose another roster player in next summer’s expansion draft.
Speaking of the future, the salary cap will not only be flat this year but likely for the next three. Your logic does nothing to address that when you are giving up a 1R draft pick just to dump salary in a year when you also don’t have a second. In that environment, in the absence of future entry level contracts afforded by higher draft picks, teams will be forced to sign leftover aging veterans at modest cost. This is also more critical to teams now who will lose another roster player in next summer’s expansion draft.
Shultzyfeelinirie25
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I still say add Stamkos to a deal and let him play center for us for a few years with not having big expectations
And they should just throw in Victor Hedman for shits and grins too right?
MBH
Players Play
I'm still game for a Tyler Johnson and a first to Detroit for futures trade.
MBH
Players Play
LIke I was saying - Yzerman would have been hitting a homerun to get TJ and a first.
Ottawa just took two depth players about to be UFAs instead and only got a second.
Anyway, we can probably close this f***in' thread. Night all!
Ottawa just took two depth players about to be UFAs instead and only got a second.
Anyway, we can probably close this f***in' thread. Night all!
Lil Sebastian Cossa
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With the rest of the moves they've made, you'd only have to trade Johnson OR Killorn now. Also, you were going to have to move Johnson and/or Killorn anyway, even without keeping Cirelli, as Tampa was over the cap before signing Cernak and Cirelli. Kucherov's hip stayed the execution and allows for some more freedom in the here and now.
Teams absolutely have made those types of trades when push came to shove.
Like Chicago, Dustin Byfuglien and trash for 1st, 2nd, and trash, Andrew Ladd (when he was still good) for a 2nd and a worthless prospect, one year of Bryan Bickell and Teuvo Teravainen for a 2nd and a 3rd.
There are a bunch of teams that would give up that to keep together a studly core. Trading away Cirelli would have been incredibly stupid. You've already got your young prospect with crazy upside. What use would it be to "maintain your 1st rounder" to maybe get Cirelli over doing something to keep him in the fold? Guys like Johnson, Killorn, Cal Foote, Ondrej Palat, Yanni Gourde? Those are the guys you move around so you can keep your core of Stamkos, Kucherov, Hedman, McDonagh, Sergachev, Vasilevskiy, and Point. Those seven guys are studs and they keep you competitive. You would then try to rotate in the guys like Cirelli and Cernak to keep your cap situation in order. Holding onto the midrange guys who are important but not vital is how you end up like Detroit has been for the past decade.
Lil Sebastian Cossa
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I still don't think that would have been a good trade. Johnson is a fine piece and a late first would be nice. But, with the way it looks for Tampa, they're still not out of the woods. They've got a way to be cap compliant now, but they're still in rough shape to have a roster with a 100% healthy Kucherov on it. The executioner's axe isn't hanging directly over their heads anymore... but he still is hanging out around the corner. They also are still in big trouble in the coming year or two as Point and Palat are going to need new deals in 22-23. Point is going to want a big raise and Palat will probably want a raise as well.
CupsOverCash
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Reality Check
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Only way I would have done this is for either a 1st or a 2nd plus an actual prospect or two.
Not that I wanted Johnson in Detroit anyhow. But if you can take advantage of another teams issue, great. This probably ends this saga.
Not that I wanted Johnson in Detroit anyhow. But if you can take advantage of another teams issue, great. This probably ends this saga.
actually Detroit ended up the way they are because they traded away years of their first round picks for aging superstars.
Obviously the Kucherov LTIR buys the lightning a little time, But in the absence of that the best thing you can do a is search for the lesser of the evils. I am not a fan of losing Cirelli. And I certainly wouldn’t keep Johnson and Killorn over him unless it meant giving up a multitude of high draft picks and prospects to do that. Without the Kucherov situatuon that is what Tampa Bay faced. Gourde’s contract btw may be worse to move than Johnson’s.
We’re in different times now. No team good or bad in what is likely to be a flat salary cap for the next three years can give away that many futures for the sake of anyone that is not a bona fide superstar on the right side of 30 years of age. Cirelli is very good but he has yet to prove he’s that valuable an asset. In the absence of top round picks in consecutive or multiple years, teams will not have the luxury of ELC’s for years. When that happens you find yourself signing has been veterans at minimal cost just to keep a full roster. No thanks. I don’t want to be the LA Kings or have to go through a long term rebuild like Detroit.
Lil Sebastian Cossa
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Um... no? I think as a Detroit fan, I get what went on with our roster.
The years of firsts that they traded? Those happened pre-cap, brother. The only firsts they dealt for old players in the last 16 years were in 2004 (dealing a 1st and other pieces for Robert Lang) and 2012 (their first for Kyle Quincey). They had a couple years where they swapped their first which was in the 20s for two seconds. If you want to harp on player trades, they did deal 2nds and 3rds for rentals in years that they stood no chance at doing anything. But no, trading away picks didn't cause the issue. They basically struck out en masse on the picks they made.
No, Detroit signed guys like Abdelkader, Ericsson, Helm, Nielsen, etc. to long term deals at way too much money. Signed guys who were completely toast at the NHL level to deals like Daley, Tootoo, the corpse of Dan Cleary, the corpse of Todd Bertuzzi, Carlo Colaiacovo, Mikael Samuelsson to multi year deals for too much. Signed Stephen Weiss who blew up in their face and needed to be bought out. They spent all of 2010-2018 RAMMING the cap because of the same issue of weighty contracts that Tampa has without much of the talent.
Detroit had decent picks from 2005-2011. In that period when they were at the top of the league, they got Franzen, Filppula, Nyquist, Tatar, Abdelkader, Howard, and Quincey who they let go for nothing to then trade a first to get back. The Wings had first round picks from the inception of the cap on, they just absolutely flailed on getting any value out of them.
Detroit has had to go through a long term rebuild because they had dogshit contracts attached to players who had absolutely no value and the good picks they did make were average NHL players and not great ones. Also, they had Franzen, Zetterberg, and Datsyuk all completely break down. Zetterberg and Datsyuk would have been some primo pieces to trade to kickstart a rebuild if you were so inclined, but the rulings on 35+ contracts and LTIRetirement essentially removed both of those possibilities.
Back to Tampa here... the whole reason why you move Johnson and/or Killorn, even at the cost of a 1st, Foote, and the goalie prospect is because you've got Cirelli and Cernak who both currently look like a top 6C and a top 4D both on the right side of 30. Tampa, if they did deal the 2021 1st... would still have their 2022 1st. If they're remotely near their capabilities, the first lands at 25 or worse and they've got a 50-50 shot at getting a workable piece there. Cirelli is already far superior to workable.
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MBH
Players Play
Dude... I'm about the last Red Wings fan on these boards you could call an apologist... but holy shit...
The Red Wings had a terrific run from say 94-03.
Between 03 and like 06, they lost Fedorov, Shanahan, Yzerman, etc etc etc. And they should have faded back to the pack like Colorado, Dallas, New Jersey - the other powerhouse teams at the turn of the century.
But 4 things happened.
1. Zetterberg became a world class player.
2. Datsyuk became a world class player.
3. Lidstrom kept being a world class player.
4. Holland made lots of good moves, including hiring Babcock.
Now, I agree with you. By like 2010 or 2011, the writing was on the wall. It was time to stop trading first rounders and draft picks... especially not in the sort of half-measure trades Holland was making.
But even if you didn't make those trades, you're picking at 27, 28, 24, 26, 22, etc. etc. etc.
Unless you have tremendous fortune - you're not getting the kind of world class players yu need at 25-30.
And truth be told, we had more than our fair share of draft fortune with Datsyuk and Zetterberg.
Even if you go back in time and make pick the low-hanging fruit...
Keep Hossa instead of Franzen. Draft Kuznetsov instead of Sheahan... we were going to slip with the retirement of aging and retirement of all those core players... and almost certainly be in this exact same position.
Good luck, Tampa.
Chicago squeezed out 3 cup wins with Master Bowman juggling all the pieces - but eventually all the parts tumbled down to the floor. Detroit got smacked after their 09 loss when in 09-10, the cap, which had been increasing by $5 and $6M a year, suddenly flattened for a year - the same year the contracts came due for Zetterberg, Franzen and Hossa. You saw the Penguins kind of reinvent themselves for a few years before they bounced back to win again, back-to-back.
Maybe you'll be fortunate and win another cup or two before have to face a rebuild - but at some point, you're going to face a rebuild. There's no doubt about it. Looking at your contract structure - the salaries to guys like Johnson, Gourde, Killorn and Cirelli, I think it could be coming sooner than you think.
MBH
Players Play
Number1RedWingsFan52
Registered User
Probably could lock this one up, Doubt Tyler Johnson is going anywhere. With Kucherov out for the season i doubt either Johnson or Killorn are getting moved. With Coburn and Paquette moved to Ottawa. Tampa will now be cap compliant with Nikita Kucherov's $9.5 million buried on LTIR.
DownIsTheNewUp
Registered User
Funny that twice in this thread I mentioned that if Yzerman asked too much Tampa would find other options elsewhere and both times I got roasted by those thinking Tampa was stuck dealing multiple firsts to Detroit. I even made the point again after the Kucherov LTIR news and still got roasted even though it was abundantly clear at that point that Tampa didn't have to move Johnson.
I'll keep reiterating my point, Detroit's cap space is very valuable, but only if they trade it for real assets. Trades always have to make sense for both teams. The Tampa-Ottawa deal makes sense for both teams. Tampa picks up some cap space for flexibility and Ottawa gets assets that makes them better now and a pick for the future. Detroit never had Tampa by the balls as so many here believed.
I'll keep reiterating my point, Detroit's cap space is very valuable, but only if they trade it for real assets. Trades always have to make sense for both teams. The Tampa-Ottawa deal makes sense for both teams. Tampa picks up some cap space for flexibility and Ottawa gets assets that makes them better now and a pick for the future. Detroit never had Tampa by the balls as so many here believed.
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hotpaws
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so the other option was to place one of the best players in the game on ltir for the entire season ? maybe next year it'll be Hedmans turn to spend the year on ltir
DownIsTheNewUp
Registered User
No, they could have easily moved Killorn. JBB even said there were 3 possible teams to send Johnson. For all the talk of unmovable NTCs, Coburn was willing to waive his full NTC to go to Ottawa. Things were never as desperate as people here made it out to be, even before the Kucherov news.
hotpaws
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if there were 3 teams that would have taken Johnson at a reasonable price then he would have been moved but the point always was Det wasn't going to take TJ for just a late 1st in a mediocre draft just because T-Bay could move other players to get cap compliant
TJ does nothing for Det so they were either going to get quality assets with him or they were going to pass on the deal .
Now that the trade of Tyler Johnson has at least for this season become moot, I will say it amazes me throughout this entire thread how many people put the conceptual ahead of the actual.
Actually in the years ahead entry level contracts will not just be important, they will be financially essential for any team in the NHL, including those currently contending for the Stanley Cup. A flat salary cap for at the next three years guarantees that.
Cirelli is a very good young talent that makes Tampa a better team. But moving Johnson at the expense of multiple futures to retain Cirelli is saying the Lightning cannot win without him. I heartily disagree, though I do certainly agree it will be an easier task with him in the lineup. People are suggesting you cannot give up on a 23 year old 2c. To suggest Cirelli is even that at this point makes the demise of Steven Stamkos greatly exaggerated (assuming Brayden Point is 1c).
In the final analysis many comments in this thread and elsewhere have sided with going all in for the Lightning re-signing all of their free agents. It is fair to note that many of those throwing caution to the wind are used to a very different economic environment some of which even predated the cap or various ways to circumvent it.
The big picture is not always the same for every team. Mortgaging your future in Tampa Bay for the assumed surety of another Cup comes with a bigger price when it ultimately leads to a long rebuild. Unlike Detroit e.g. Tampa is not a natural hockey market but one that was successfully created. Besides having no lack of sports from which fans can choose to spend their money, the weather by itself can and has given people considerably more options to stay away from any team that misses the playoffs 3-5 years.
Actually in the years ahead entry level contracts will not just be important, they will be financially essential for any team in the NHL, including those currently contending for the Stanley Cup. A flat salary cap for at the next three years guarantees that.
Cirelli is a very good young talent that makes Tampa a better team. But moving Johnson at the expense of multiple futures to retain Cirelli is saying the Lightning cannot win without him. I heartily disagree, though I do certainly agree it will be an easier task with him in the lineup. People are suggesting you cannot give up on a 23 year old 2c. To suggest Cirelli is even that at this point makes the demise of Steven Stamkos greatly exaggerated (assuming Brayden Point is 1c).
In the final analysis many comments in this thread and elsewhere have sided with going all in for the Lightning re-signing all of their free agents. It is fair to note that many of those throwing caution to the wind are used to a very different economic environment some of which even predated the cap or various ways to circumvent it.
The big picture is not always the same for every team. Mortgaging your future in Tampa Bay for the assumed surety of another Cup comes with a bigger price when it ultimately leads to a long rebuild. Unlike Detroit e.g. Tampa is not a natural hockey market but one that was successfully created. Besides having no lack of sports from which fans can choose to spend their money, the weather by itself can and has given people considerably more options to stay away from any team that misses the playoffs 3-5 years.
