Zadina is getting ready

[Pavels Dog]

This is nonsense.
Larkin shifted from wing to center.

And Larkin's struggles started his rookie year.
Through 52 games he went 18-29-38 +26
Over the next 28: 5-2-7 -15

Sophomore year:
First 60: 12-7-19
Final 20: 5-18-13

So that late freshman/sophomore slump was; 88 games; 17-9-26.

All Zadina has done is get more icetime and more opportunity to score on the PP.

It's not nonsense, it's strictly stats. Made no judgement about situations being 1:1 comparables.

That said, Zadina has played a lot less games through 2 seasons. And a lot less help. Wings were actually a decent team when Larkin stepped in, then they declined. Zadina's been playing the bulk of his NHL career on a the worst offensive teams the Wings have had in 3+ decades.

 

[Hen Kolland]

Zadina played 4 games before he got COVID, the claim was that he was the best player on the team in those 4 games....

and you just said Ryan was the best player for 3 of those 4 games, lol.

Reading comprehension.

Am I out here saying that Zadina was the best player in those 4 games?

Reading comprehension

 

[MBH]

It's not nonsense, it's strictly stats. Made no judgement about situations being 1:1 comparables.

That said, Zadina has played a lot less games through 2 seasons. And a lot less help. Wings were actually a decent team when Larkin stepped in, then they declined. Zadina's been playing the bulk of his NHL career on a the worst offensive teams the Wings have had in 3+ decades.

Zadina is a reason why this team's offense sucked.
He was the shooter on the PP.

I'm not saying he won't improve, but here's where he ranked on a shitty team.
Why isn't he #1. Or #3. Or #7.
1.16/60 is Drew Miller-esque.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Zadina is a reason why this team's offense sucked.
He was the shooter on the PP.

I'm not saying he won't improve, but here's where he ranked on a shitty team.
Why isn't he #1. Or #3. Or #7.
1.16/60 is Drew Miller-esque.
View attachment 462935

When most of the team has similar poor production the issue is usually bigger than individual players.

 

[MBH]

When most of the team has similar poor production the issue is usually bigger than individual players.

When most of the team has BETTER production, the issue is usually with the individual.
Gloss it over if you want.
Coaching? Sure. Weak linemates? Sure.
But Zadina had worse production than most of the other forwards. You need to come to grips with that.

 

[Pavels Dog]

When most of the team has BETTER production, the issue is usually with the individual.
Gloss it over if you want.
Coaching? Sure. Weak linemates? Sure.
But Zadina had worse production than most of the other forwards. You need to come to grips with that.

Like half that list can be dismissed outright, we know Svechnikov, Smith, Panik etc. aren't better or more capable scorers. Larkin had 0.04 points/60 higher. Kinda says it all when it comes to the team's scoring woes.

 

[MBH]

Like half that list can be dismissed outright, we know Svechnikov, Smith, Panik etc. aren't better or more capable scorers. Larkin had 0.04 points/60 higher. Kinda says it all when it comes to the team's scoring woes.

No, we don't know that Svech/Smith/Panik aren't better.
And Larkin had a MISERABLE year.
So congrats to Zadina for finishing close to Larkin during Larkin's worst season.

 

[Pavels Dog]

No, we don't know that Svech/Smith/Panik aren't better.
And Larkin had a MISERABLE year.
So congrats to Zadina for finishing close to Larkin during Larkin's worst season.
View attachment 462949

That's what happens on bad teams - players have miserable years.
He needs to be better, but he's 21 and I expect him to improve. Most of all - the team needs widespread improvement in all areas. You're not gonna be a bottom 5 team and have players putting up awesome numbers and living up to potential.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Who'd have thought a 21 year old playing his first professional games on one of the worst teams in the league through COVID-stricken seasons (one of which he contracted the disease himself), all while playing a game that severely limits offense, would possibly not be particularly productive or consistent.

 

[MBH]

Who'd have thought a 21 year old playing his first professional games on one of the worst teams in the league through COVID-stricken seasons (one of which he contracted the disease himself), all while playing a game that severely limits offense, would possibly not be particularly productive or consistent.

Nobody.
Check the pre-season prediction posts.
I don't think many people predicted 6 goals.
Big disappointment.

Here's hoping for two steps forward this year.
82 games 16 goals 24 assists. That would look pretty good right now. I'd take that as progress.
He scored at a 10-goal pace last year.
A 23 goal pace the previous stint.
I'd take a 15-20 goal campaign but would love to see him pop to the next level, obviously.

 

[Gniwder]

Am I out here saying that Zadina was the best player in those 4 games?

Reading comprehension

NO, I replied to a guy who did, and you butted in and said I was wrong for saying Zadina was NOT the best player in those 4 games, Ryan was.

So yes, YOU have reading comprehension issues. Go back and read the thread.

 

[Gniwder]

Who'd have thought a 21 year old playing his first professional games on one of the worst teams in the league through COVID-stricken seasons (one of which he contracted the disease himself), all while playing a game that severely limits offense, would possibly not be particularly productive or consistent.

Stats aside, he didn't really pass the eye test either. Early in the season he was shooting from the dot and he just doesn't have the velocity or accuracy to beat NHL goalies from there. Later in the season he was going into the dirty areas, so that was an improvement. Overall his shot percentage was 6.2% and ranked 16th on the team (13 if you remove Vrana, Bert, and Joey due to limited sample size). When you're expected to be the shooter, that's unacceptable.

Larkin was ranked 15th with a career low 6.7%. He has a miserable year too.

 

[lilidk]

Stats aside, he didn't really pass the eye test either. Early in the season he was shooting from the dot and he just doesn't have the velocity or accuracy to beat NHL goalies from there. Later in the season he was going into the dirty areas, so that was an improvement. Overall his shot percentage was 6.2% and ranked 16th on the team (13 if you remove Vrana, Bert, and Joey due to limited sample size). When you're expected to be the shooter, that's unacceptable.

Larkin was ranked 15th with a career low 6.7%. He has a miserable year too.

Larkin had 2 miserable years

 

[Hen Kolland]

NO, I replied to a guy who did, and you butted in and said I was wrong for saying Zadina was NOT the best player in those 4 games, Ryan was.

So yes, YOU have reading comprehension issues. Go back and read the thread.

NO, I replied to a guy who did, and you butted in and said I was wrong for saying Zadina was NOT the best player in those 4 games, Ryan was.

So yes, YOU have reading comprehension issues. Go back and read the thread.

I never asserted anything about Zadina being better or worse than Ryan. I stepped in and called you out for the same BS narrative about Ryan being this amazing player early in the year that you have been spouting off. I didn’t say anything about Zadina. Regardless of whether the person you were responding to was talking about Zadina.

Bobby Ryan played about a total of 3 notable good games for the Wings. You’ve overblown his value at every single step along the way.

You can keep saying reading comprehension as if you’ll eventually be correct in using it, but it’s not going to happen here.

 

[Gniwder]

I never asserted anything about Zadina being better or worse than Ryan. I stepped in and called you out for the same BS narrative about Ryan being this amazing player early in the year that you have been spouting off. I didn’t say anything about Zadina. Regardless of whether the person you were responding to was talking about Zadina.

Bobby Ryan played about a total of 3 notable good games for the Wings. You’ve overblown his value at every single step along the way.

You can keep saying reading comprehension as if you’ll eventually be correct in using it, but it’s not going to happen here.

And I was talking about those 3 games, lol.

Like I said, you butted into a conversation and went off on a tangent. I liked the Ryan streak while it lasted, I never expected it to continue. That much I will admit to. It's not like I expected him to continue shooting at 40% for an entire season. I also predicted he'd pace for 40 points so he fell below my mark. He really didn't do much after Fabbri got moved to the 1st line.

But anyways you're trying to derail the thread just to hate on the fact that I like Bobby Ryan. If that's the kind of person you want to be then good for you.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Nobody.
Check the pre-season prediction posts.
I don't think many people predicted 6 goals.
Big disappointment.

Here's hoping for two steps forward this year.
82 games 16 goals 24 assists. That would look pretty good right now. I'd take that as progress.
He scored at a 10-goal pace last year.
A 23 goal pace the previous stint.
I'd take a 15-20 goal campaign but would love to see him pop to the next level, obviously.

How many predicted the point/goal totals of any of the Red Wings accurately for last season? Based on the number of goals a lot of fans expected of Zadina, no other players on the team could even meet those expectations.

Hronek was the leading scoring player on the team, with a 40 point pace over an 82 game season. Fabbri, who only played 30 games, was at a 50 point pace, leading the team other than Vrana (11 games) and Bertuzzi (9 games). That is pitiful all around. Zadina, a 21 year old who has played a grand total of 86 games separated by three NHL seasons, two of which were interrupted and significantly altered due to COVID, and the other being his rookie season where he played 9 games. With very little NHL experience and significantly more variables than previous seasons, on a team that was the second-worst offensive group in the league (only one more goal than last place Anaheim), while contracting COVID during the season, he produced poorly. If you told people at the beginning of the season that Zadina would get COVID and the team would be a black hole of offense then it is possible predictions would change.

I don't take too much stock in the individual performances of players based on last season, specifically. However, this season is going to hopefully be back to normal, so Zadina has no excuse to not perform at his very best this season.

 

[Henkka]

Larkin 1st season: 45 points in 80 games
Zadina 1st season: 43 point pace over 80 games
Larkin 2nd season: 32 points in 80 games
Zadina 2nd season: 31 point pace over 80 games

It's actually eerily similar.

Interesting.

How was Nathan MacKinnon on his first years on those crap COL teams?

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Interesting.

How was Nathan MacKinnon on his first years on those crap COL teams?

Mackinnon's 1st season (18/2013-14): 24 goals, 63 points
Mackinnon's 2nd season (19/2014-15): 14 goals, 38 points (49 point pace)

He stuck around the 50-60 point pace until 2016-17 (22 years old) where he scored 97 points.

 

[Hen Kolland]

Larkin 1st season: 45 points in 80 games
Zadina 1st season: 43 point pace over 80 games
Larkin 2nd season: 32 points in 80 games
Zadina 2nd season: 31 point pace over 80 games

It's actually eerily similar.

So similar that the tasks they faced were organized in the exact same mold.

Larkin broke in on the wing and was allowed to pretty much play the same game he had played his entire life. When his sophomore year came around, he was shifted to center and tasked with becoming a complete, well-rounded center that handled the responsibilities of an NHL center, not just create offense.

Zadina broke in on the wing, played down the lineup with linemates who had the defensive responsibilities covered. This also meant that Zadina was the most offensively capable player on his line most times, and he tried to create offense. In this past year, it has been an open admission from Yzerman and Blashill how restricted the offense was in an attempt to clean up team defense and stress the importance of being impactful in all areas of the ice. Zadina was probably the most noticeably transformed player to my eyes in terms of his growth as a defensively capable forward, but was also extremely underwhelming offensively while he focused on playing the way he was being asked to play.

Both sophomore slumps came with challenges to be better defensively and approach the game from a different angle. I know this has been regurgitated about Blashill ruining players, but now that we know that Zadina is definitely capable as a puck hound, we need to see the offense bounce back the way that Larkin's did in his third year. Except we need it to stick permanently.

This might go down as setting unreasonable expectations, but I think we need to see 50+ points (or pace) from Zadina this year to have hope that he can still be a true first line caliber player in his career.

 

[MBH]

How many predicted the point/goal totals of any of the Red Wings accurately for last season? Based on the number of goals a lot of fans expected of Zadina, no other players on the team could even meet those expectations.

Hronek was the leading scoring player on the team, with a 40 point pace over an 82 game season. Fabbri, who only played 30 games, was at a 50 point pace, leading the team other than Vrana (11 games) and Bertuzzi (9 games). That is pitiful all around. Zadina, a 21 year old who has played a grand total of 86 games separated by three NHL seasons, two of which were interrupted and significantly altered due to COVID, and the other being his rookie season where he played 9 games. With very little NHL experience and significantly more variables than previous seasons, on a team that was the second-worst offensive group in the league (only one more goal than last place Anaheim), while contracting COVID during the season, he produced poorly. If you told people at the beginning of the season that Zadina would get COVID and the team would be a black hole of offense then it is possible predictions would change.

I don't take too much stock in the individual performances of players based on last season, specifically. However, this season is going to hopefully be back to normal, so Zadina has no excuse to not perform at his very best this season.

Right.
You want to make excuses for him.
I don't.
Fair enough.

The COVID excuse is the worst. Auston Matthews got COVID.
He was great. had his best season.
Zadina never complained about COVID.

If you want to make excuses, there are millions of them.
I just don't see the silver lining anywhere in the numbers.
I didn't see enough creativity/skill/shooting in the eye test.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Right.
You want to make excuses for him.
I don't.
Fair enough.

The COVID excuse is the worst. Auston Matthews got COVID.
He was great. had his best season.
Zadina never complained about COVID.

If you want to make excuses, there are millions of them.
I just don't see the silver lining anywhere in the numbers.
I didn't see enough creativity/skill/shooting in the eye test.

I appreciate this very genuine and informative reply.

 

[MBH]

I appreciate this very genuine and informative reply.

You're welcome.
If
1) Zadina looked good offensively but just had bad puck luck, I'd look for excuses.
2) If Zadina was buried on L4 with Helm and Filppula or whatever, I'd look for excuses.
3) If Zadina was scoring at a high rate but getting low minutes, I'd look for excuses.
4) If Zadina was was getting the final 25 seconds of PP garbagetime, I'd look for excuses.

But he didn't.
He had every opportunity.
He played almost 17 minutes a night.
He played a ton on the first powerplay and was the shooter on the unit.

And he struggled.
He finished among the worst among Wings forwards in production metrics.
He was the DRAG, not the guy dragging.

So you yourself said, if he has another year like last year, you'll re-eassess him.

By the same token, if he blows up or even improves next year, I'll re-assess him.

But at this point, Tomas Tatar Deluxe - a comparison that once drew howls - looks like a great outcome.

 

[TheOtherOne]

Right.
You want to make excuses for him.
I don't.
Fair enough.

The COVID excuse is the worst. Auston Matthews got COVID.
He was great. had his best season.
Zadina never complained about COVID.

If you want to make excuses, there are millions of them.
I just don't see the silver lining anywhere in the numbers.
I didn't see enough creativity/skill/shooting in the eye test.

lol are you serious with this?

A lot of people had Covid and had little or no symptoms.

A lot of people had Covid and died.

A lot of people had Covid and experience things like brain fog and reduced lung capacity a half a year later.

What Auston Matthews did last year has no relevance to anything.

 

[MBH]

lol are you serious with this?

A lot of people had Covid and had little or no symptoms.

A lot of people had Covid and died.

A lot of people had Covid and experience things like brain fog and reduced lung capacity a half a year later.

What Auston Matthews did last year has no relevance to anything.

Haha.
Yes, I'm serious with this.
Zadina was fine.

Keep trying to build the narrative, but Zadina said he was fine. His skating was fine.

"I didn't feel OK, but right now I'm ... feel really good and excited to be playing tomorrow,"

The one thing Zadina did last year that most agree is positive is he worked to be a puckhound.

If you're OK to puckhound, you're OK to do anything else in hockey.

 

[Henkka]

lol are you serious with this?

A lot of people had Covid and had little or no symptoms.

A lot of people had Covid and died.

A lot of people had Covid and experience things like brain fog and reduced lung capacity a half a year later.

What Auston Matthews did last year has no relevance to anything.

A lot of professional athletes had COVID and they had huge struggles with stamina and exhaustion after returning. Lungs were "burning" as a feeling etc.

Zadina looked exactly that kind of guy after his return.