GDT: Your New Jersey Devils vs. Toronto Maple Leafs: The Final Goodbye

[Zippy316]

Or Mozik, or Hrabarenka, or Scarlett, or Jacobs, or maybe we see something from someone entirely new like Paul Geiger? And what if Santini really impresses? There is almost no option but start him in Albany with Schlemko here with a new multi year deal in hand.

There is no shortage of options for a 6th or 7th dman and having both Moore and Schlemko is more of a negative than a positive in my opinion.

Geiger was released from his ATO earlier this week.

 

[JimEIV]

Geiger was released from his ATO earlier this week.

Must've been while I was away. I don't pay attention to much when I'm fishing

Surprised a goal and assist +3 in 9 games?

 

[AfroThunder396]

We've seen what happens when D are rushed to the NHL (Larsson and Merrill and to some extent Severson) Larsson figured it out but the other two look a little lost. Santini needs at LEAST a year in Albany. The D is set for next year.

Moore and Helgeson will be gone next year (Though I wish Moore was cut tomorrow) and Merrill or Severson will be shipped out.

I also think it depends on the expansion. Keeping guys in the minors will prevent them from being exposed. It might be the only reason I keep Moore around.

I agree. We need to follow the Detroit model when it comes to defensemen. I don't give a **** if Santini gets 50 goals in 2 preseason games, send his ass down for at LEAST half a season. If he works his way into a full time spot due to injury call up, so be it. But we've been put behind the 8-ball by defensemen who look great but end up getting scorched later when skill can't overcome [lack of] experience.

 

[JimEIV]

I agree. We need to follow the Detroit model when it comes to defensemen. I don't give a **** if Santini gets 50 goals in 2 preseason games, send his ass down for at LEAST half a season. If he works his way into a full time spot due to injury call up, so be it. But we've been put behind the 8-ball by defensemen who look great but end up getting scorched later when skill can't overcome [lack of] experience.

Most of that has to do with no support system.

Bringing a young defender in without a strong partner is the root of many of our problems...for years every new dman that come to New Jersey had a strong stable partner...most of the time it was Stevens who mentored Niedermayer, Rafalski and so many others that rode shotgun with him to start...Paul Martin got Niedermayer as his first partner....We don't have that support system right now.

Did anyone not see the difference between Severson with Greene vs without? Does anyone truly believe it was a coincidence that Larsson took off the moment he got paired with Greene?

Moore and Schlemko are not those mentors and stable influences the young players need and keeping them perpetuates this cycle no matter how long you keep a kid in the AHL.

 

[markog]

Did anyone not see the difference between Severson with Greene vs without? Does anyone truly believe it was a coincidence that Larsson took off the moment he got paired with Greene?

You're right and I think Larsson could soon take someone under his wing. Severson is a righty so it would be perfect to put him alongside Greene in the near future.

 

[devilsblood]

Most of that has to do with no support system.

Bringing a young defender in without a strong partner is the root of many of our problems...for years every new dman that come to New Jersey had a strong stable partner...most of the time it was Stevens who mentored Niedermayer, Rafalski and so many others that rode shotgun with him to start...Paul Martin got Niedermayer as his first partner....We don't have that support system right now.

Did anyone not see the difference between Severson with Greene vs without? Does anyone truly believe it was a coincidence that Larsson took off the moment he got paired with Greene?

Moore and Schlemko are not those mentors and stable influences the young players need and keeping them perpetuates this cycle no matter how long you keep a kid in the AHL.

Well if we go:

Greene-Sevs
Merrill-Lars

that would leave Schlem for Santini? Maybe Moore-Santini?

You don't seem too high on Schlem. And I'm pretty sure you are anti Moore.

Personally I'd like to see him run a stint in Albany.

 

[devilsblood]

If anything I think Santini eventually takes Merrill's role as the one-dimensional defensive guy on a middle-back pairing. I actually thought Merrill would be more physical of a d-man than he's been in the pros. And Merrill might be a guy either traded or taken in the expansion draft.

Funny, but I was expecting more offense. Unfortuneately he's brought little of either.

 

[JimEIV]

Funny, but I was expecting more offense. Unfortuneately he's brought little of either.

Funny I was expecting neither....a cross between Andy Greene and Paul Martin has always been my projection since his freshman year at Michigan...neither of whom are overly physical or offensively gifted.

He reminded me a lot of Martin from the get go.

 

[The Wumpus]

Funny, but I was expecting more offense. Unfortuneately he's brought little of either.

We knew from Michigan that his game is very un-physical, but it really seemed like he'd be a better puck mover/point producer.

 

[devilsblood]

Funny I was expecting neither....a cross between Andy Greene and Paul Martin has always been my projection since his freshman year at Michigan...neither of whom are overly physical or offensively gifted.

He reminded me a lot of Martin from the get go.

Martin had 61 points in his first 150 games.

Merrill has 30 in 165.

Martin had much better #'s in college as well. I've seen the Martin comparison b4, but Merrill has done little to live up to it.

Greene was a late bloomer in the NHL, but he also had much better college #'s.

 

[devilsblood]

We knew from Michigan that his game is very un-physical, but it really seemed like he'd be a better puck mover/point producer.

Maybe expecting more physicality wasn't what I meant(though I'd like to see more regardless), better put would be I expecting a more sound defensive game. He's been an air head at times.

 

[Feed Me A Stray Cat]

Martin and Merrill definitely share some similar characteristics, from their handedness to number to skating style, and how they both play a non-physical but solid defensive game, however Martin was light years ahead of Merrill in his first two seasons.

Merrill is more Matt DeMarchi than Paul Martin at this point.

 

[Classic Devil]

Martin and Merrill definitely share some similar characteristics, from their handedness to number to skating style, and how they both play a non-physical but solid defensive game, however Martin was light years ahead of Merrill in his first two seasons.

Merrill is more Matt DeMarchi than Paul Martin at this point.

I don't know if I would go that far. DeMarchi never played a NHL game, did he?

 

[NJDevs26]

Funny, but I was expecting more offense. Unfortuneately he's brought little of either.

Well if by more you mean less than zero then yeah I expected that, but never thought he had a Greene/Martin game offensively. As far as being physical I kind of thought he was a bit edgy when we drafted him but since becoming a pro he hasn't shown that

 

[Oneiro]

Martin also came into the NHL at an older age (23-24). As did Fayne and Greene.

 

[JimEIV]

Martin and Merrill definitely share some similar characteristics, from their handedness to number to skating style, and how they both play a non-physical but solid defensive game, however Martin was light years ahead of Merrill in his first two seasons.

Merrill is more Matt DeMarchi than Paul Martin at this point.

Martin's first two seasons his partners were Scott Niedermayer then Brian Rafalski...Uhm wee bit different for Merrill. Wouldn't you say?

And DeMarchi was a 4-6 while at Minnesota depending on the year...Come on now!

Martin, Ballard, Leopold..............DeMarchi

 

[Rhodes 81]

Martin's first two seasons his partners were Scott Niedermayer then Brian Rafalski...Uhm wee bit different for Merrill. Wouldn't you say?

And DeMarchi was a 4-6 while at Minnesota depending on the year...Come on now!

Martin, Ballard, Leopold..............DeMarchi

People do seem to forget that who a player plays with does affect their own play a ton.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a lot of the hype around Josefson's offensive game come from when he put up points in his rookie season playing with Kovalchuk? Chris Thorburn is still cashing in a career off of playing on a line with Kovy for a month.

Something tells me that Merrill would perform a lot better with a reliable partner rather than the revolving door of mediocrity he's been playing with. It's no coincidence that Larsson, Severson, Fayne, etc have all looked good playing next to Greene. The fewer mistakes your partner makes, the fewer mistakes you have to make up for, and the more they can make up for yours.

 

[Triumph]

Martin's first two seasons his partners were Scott Niedermayer then Brian Rafalski...Uhm wee bit different for Merrill. Wouldn't you say?

And DeMarchi was a 4-6 while at Minnesota depending on the year...Come on now!

Martin, Ballard, Leopold..............DeMarchi

Martin played 23 minutes a game in 05-06 and was possibly already NJ's best defenseman at that point. He played with Rafalski because he was good. Merrill has shown nowhere near that level of competence.

 

[OmNomNom]

Martin played 23 minutes a game in 05-06 and was possibly already NJ's best defenseman at that point. He played with Rafalski because he was good. Merrill has shown nowhere near that level of competence.

we thought the same thing about larsson 2 years ago. a bunch of us definitely thought he was gonna bust. one more year, a healthy year, for merrill

 

[JimEIV]

Martin played 23 minutes a game in 05-06 and was possibly already NJ's best defenseman at that point. He played with Rafalski because he was good. Merrill has shown nowhere near that level of competence.

I wouldn't disagree that he was the best defenseman by year two but his career went as perfectly as one could draw up on paper...2 of the 3 years Martin was a Golden Gopher he was in the Frozen 4 and the won a championship...

He was brought into a team that had THE best defensive forwards in the game in John Madden, Sergei Brylin, Brian Gionta, Jay Pandolfo and Jamie Langenbrunner...As group there were none better defensively...He then gets paired with one of the most Championship decorated at all levels Hall of Fame players in Scott Niedermayer...He is injury free all of his first 3 years and the foundation he received was impeccable.

Merrill was sitting out suspended for the majority of one season at Michigan and had a broken freakin neck for another...He comes to the NHL and gets a concussion that loses him a half of his first season on his first freaking shift...He comes to a ****-hole of team that was decimated by Kovalchuk and much of the Tradition that Martin enjoyed was already forever gone.

To compare Merrill to-date to Martin without looking at the situations is pure absurdity.

 

[Triumph]

I wouldn't disagree that he was the best defenseman by year two but his career went as perfectly as one could draw up on paper...2 of the 3 years Martin was a Golden Gopher he was in the Frozen 4 and the won a championship...

He was brought into a team that had THE best defensive forwards in the game in John Madden, Sergei Brylin, Brian Gionta, Jay Pandolfo and Jamie Langenbrunner...As group there were none better defensively...He then gets paired with one of the most Championship decorated at all levels Hall of Fame players in Scott Niedermayer...He is injury free all of his first 3 years and the foundation he received was impeccable.

Merrill was sitting out suspended for the majority of one season at Michigan and had a broken freakin neck for another...He comes to the NHL and gets a concussion that loses him a half of his first season on his first freaking shift...He comes to a ****-hole of team that was decimated by Kovalchuk and much of the Tradition that Martin enjoyed was already forever gone.

To compare Merrill to-date to Martin without looking at the situations is pure absurdity.

I agree Merrill has had a difficult road, but that's all the more reason to look askance at him now. Sometimes things don't work out like you draw them up. In addition I like how you've given yourself a narrative out if all these young players you're so high on don't work out - the fact that the Tradition is gone. Ironically, this has been my point during these discussions - it's not about the traditions, it's that the Devils don't have any kind of safety net now. They don't have an Elias that they can just stick anyone with and Elias makes them into a better player. I'm really not sure how you can be in this thread arguing that circumstances have made Merrill into a worse player than he otherwise should be and in the other one arguing that NJ has 6 young forwards who are going to make things all better next year.

Here's a little fun fact for you - the 13-14 Devils gave up 4.5 shots/60 fewer at 5 on 5 than the 05-06 Devils did. So much for 'great defensive forwards' and 'tradition' - might want to check on your narrative a bit there. They didn't do much better in 07 either. Martin did not have it easy at all in those years, there were a lot of bad players on those rosters and players forced into much larger roles than they should've had.

 

[devilsblood]

To compare Merrill to-date to Martin without looking at the situations is pure absurdity.

I agree, but it's you that made the comparison.

 

[JimEIV]

I agree, but it's you that made the comparison.

That totally wasn't the context.

The context was obviously levels of defense vs levels of physicality vs levels offense from the player.

I was clearly talking style when I said he was a Greene/Martin type and that he always remind of me of Martin

 

[JimEIV]

I agree Merrill has had a difficult road, but that's all the more reason to look askance at him now. Sometimes things don't work out like you draw them up. In addition I like how you've given yourself a narrative out if all these young players you're so high on don't work out - the fact that the Tradition is gone. Ironically, this has been my point during these discussions - it's not about the traditions, it's that the Devils don't have any kind of safety net now. They don't have an Elias that they can just stick anyone with and Elias makes them into a better player. I'm really not sure how you can be in this thread arguing that circumstances have made Merrill into a worse player than he otherwise should be and in the other one arguing that NJ has 6 young forwards who are going to make things all better next year.

Here's a little fun fact for you - the 13-14 Devils gave up 4.5 shots/60 fewer at 5 on 5 than the 05-06 Devils did. So much for 'great defensive forwards' and 'tradition' - might want to check on your narrative a bit there. They didn't do much better in 07 either. Martin did not have it easy at all in those years, there were a lot of bad players on those rosters and players forced into much larger roles than they should've had.

No a good player is a good player...It might just take him a little more time to achieve it --- Barring more or serious injuries of course...I don't think that is a narrative. Everyone knows you gotta stay at least semi healthy.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

Merrill is terrible at this point. I just hope he can be a mediocre defenseman, let alone Paul Martin.