Your all time greats, forgotten?

[Big Phil]

Never understood why he never gets the recognition he should,even to this day...Canadian bias possibly? The latest Hockey News Best players by position didn't even have him mentioned(not that the magazine has any credibility today),but I find that extremely shocking and strange.

No, Stastny was adored in Canada. He was a first ballot HHOFer. He still is highly revered. He played in Quebec, remember. So while there is Canadian bias in some cases I know for sure it isn't against him.

Don't worry about the Hockey News list. For starters, there have been many great centers in NHL history. I am not sure Stastny ranks among the top 20 either. If so, who do you take out? It's tough.

 

[avs1986]

No, Stastny was adored in Canada. He was a first ballot HHOFer. He still is highly revered. He played in Quebec, remember. So while there is Canadian bias in some cases I know for sure it isn't against him.

Don't worry about the Hockey News list. For starters, there have been many great centers in NHL history. I am not sure Stastny ranks among the top 20 either. If so, who do you take out? It's tough.

I would have to say maybe Crosby, but probably Malone. There is a certain mystique to Malone due to his 7 goals in a game and ppg numbers, but I don't think you can even argue that he had a better career than Stastny,let alone what Stastny had to go through to play in the NHL. I remember reading somewhere where Malone states that the modern game(1950-60's) was not even close to the game he played, in terms of stamina and skill. A great player for sure, but I don't think his short career or skill level is close to Stastny's. Crosby is a tough call,it's basically hardware and predictions vs. career numbers. I know Stastny is a respected name in Canada, but to me that shows some Canadian bias(at least by the editors).

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

No, Stastny was adored in Canada. He was a first ballot HHOFer. He still is highly revered. He played in Quebec, remember. So while there is Canadian bias in some cases I know for sure it isn't against him.

Don't worry about the Hockey News list. For starters, there have been many great centers in NHL history. I am not sure Stastny ranks among the top 20 either. If so, who do you take out? It's tough.

Was he adored? Yes. Has he been forgotten relative to some of the players he faced in the 80's? Yes as well.

Might be a different story if Stastny had broke into the NHL as a 19 or 20 year old and added a couple of more prime years to his resume. That could have potentially been another 300 pts or so. Dionne put up 366 pts prior to the age of 24 and IMO was a comparable talent at their relative peaks.

Just comparing him to Dionne from the age of 24 (age when Peter broke in) for a 10 year span, and Peter compares very favourably:

Stastny
Regular Season - Games 737, Pts 1048, 1.42 PPG
Playoffs - Games 64, Pts 81, 1.27 PPG

Dionne
Regular Season - Games 774, Pts 1139, 1.47 PPG
Playoffs - Games 43, Pts 43, 1.0 PPG

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Just comparing him to Dionne from the age of 24 (age when Peter broke in) for a 10 year span, and Peter compares very favourably

Problem with that is that Dionne's age 24-28 years had a goals per game average of 6.82, whereas Stastny's comparable years age-wise the goal per game average was 7.82.

And of course, that's reflected in their relative performance. Dionne has an Art Ross and two Pearsons, two 2nd place scoring finishes and three post-season all-star berths in the time period. Stastny has a 2nd, a 3rd and a 4th place scoring finish and no all-star berth or trophy beyond the Calder as a 24 year old.

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

Problem with that is that Dionne's age 24-28 years had a goals per game average of 6.82, whereas Stastny's comparable years age-wise the goal per game average was 7.82.

And of course, that's reflected in their relative performance. Dionne has an Art Ross and two Pearsons, two 2nd place scoring finishes and three post-season all-star berths in the time period. Stastny has a 2nd, a 3rd and a 4th place scoring finish and no all-star berth or trophy beyond the Calder as a 24 year old.

Said he compared favourably to an all time great, not that he was as good or better. My point was that if he had started at a younger age, he'd probably have about 300 more points on his resume.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

I would have to say maybe Crosby, but probably Malone. There is a certain mystique to Malone due to his 7 goals in a game and ppg numbers, but I don't think you can even argue that he had a better career than Stastny,let alone what Stastny had to go through to play in the NHL. I remember reading somewhere where Malone states that the modern game(1950-60's) was not even close to the game he played, in terms of stamina and skill. A great player for sure, but I don't think his short career or skill level is close to Stastny's.

Trying to clear up some of the misconceptions here.

Short career: Malone played ECHA/NHA/NHL hockey from 1909 to 1924. Even if you take off the last two years when he didn't play much at all, that's 14 seasons at the highest level of the game. Stastny played 13 full NHL seasons.

You can't just look at Malone's NHL career. The dividing line between the NHA and NHL is arbitrary and simply the result of politics. You can't ignore his 7 years in the NHA just because Eddie Livingstone didn't get along with the other owners.

Mystique: Malone does have a certain mystique, because most current hockey fans don't know how to interpret his numbers due to the differences in the game between then and now. But let me tell you as an expert in this era: his 44 goals in 1918 is genuinely impressive. No, it's not the best goalscoring achievement in history, but it's very impressive nonetheless.

Skill level: 1918 is not Malone's only good year. He led the NHA/NHL in goals four times in his career, having three other seasons very similar to his 1918 performance (1913, 1917, 1920).

And as an aside:

Old hockey players never die: Of course Malone said the modern game couldn't compare to the game in his day. All retired hockey players say that.

 

[Killion]

One of my favorites of all time was Pierre Pilote, who during his prime with Chicago paired with Elmer "Moose" Vasko was one of the best & most feared defencemen in the league at both ends of the ice. Tough as nails, a really solid & reliable guy. Stan Makita, Keon, Red Kelley & Ted Lindsay also rank right up there as well, alongside Bathgate, Howe, Hull, Hall, Crozier & many many more as mentioned earlier.... yet Pilote seems a bit forgotten no?.

 

[avs1986]

Trying to clear up some of the misconceptions here.

Short career: Malone played ECHA/NHA/NHL hockey from 1909 to 1924. Even if you take off the last two years when he didn't play much at all, that's 14 seasons at the highest level of the game. Stastny played 13 full NHL seasons.

You can't just look at Malone's NHL career. The dividing line between the NHA and NHL is arbitrary and simply the result of politics. You can't ignore his 7 years in the NHA just because Eddie Livingstone didn't get along with the other owners.

Mystique: Malone does have a certain mystique, because most current hockey fans don't know how to interpret his numbers due to the differences in the game between then and now. But let me tell you as an expert in this era: his 44 goals in 1918 is genuinely impressive. No, it's not the best goalscoring achievement in history, but it's very impressive nonetheless.

Skill level: 1918 is not Malone's only good year. He led the NHA/NHL in goals four times in his career, having three other seasons very similar to his 1918 performance (1913, 1917, 1920).

And as an aside:

Old hockey players never die: Of course Malone said the modern game couldn't compare to the game in his day. All retired hockey players say that.

Good points...let me ask you your opinion then, Stastny or Malone? I still take Stastny.

 

[arrbez]

I bet Pronger will suffer 20+ years from now - A Hart, but only one Norris and no Conn Smythe trophies, despite having three worthy runs.

Pronger is definitely a guy whose on-paper accomplishments really underrate him. He's been a much, much better player than a single first-team allstar selection would indicate. In my eyes he's clearly been the #2 defender of the Lidstrom Era, but on paper he really doesn't separate himself from the other contenders at all.


Chris Pronger
Norris: 1
First Allstar Team: 1
Second Allstar Team: 3


Scott Niedermayer
Norris: 1
First Allstar Team: 3
Second Allstar Team: 1


Zdeno Chara
Norris: 1
First Allstar Team: 2
Second Allstar Team: 3


Rob Blake
Norris: 1
First Allstar Team: 1
Second Allstar Team: 3

 

[arrbez]

The latest Hockey News Best players by position didn't even have him mentioned(not that the magazine has any credibility today),but I find that extremely shocking and strange.

I haven't seen this list, but how many guys do they list as honourable mentions or whatever? It's not like Stastny is exactly in the discussion with Gretzky and Lemieux for the best centre ever.

 

[toob]

Larry Murphy
guy was money

 

[BubbaBoot]

Before Bob Gainey, there was Don Marcotte.
Only an old timer can do him justice.

Check out what he did over a long career as a 3rd liner D specialist.

http://web.archive.org/web/20050118053251/http://www.bruins-legends.com/M/marcotte.htm

Marcotte and Fred Stanfield were two important cogs for the Bruins and never got a lot of credit, overshadowed by the flashier and/or crazier teammates.....Eddie Westfall too.

Rick Middleton is one of the most underrated wingers in the game. He's 5th among RWers in goal scorers not in the Hof. Only Jagr, Selanne, Recchi and Iginla are ahead of him, and yet, outside of Boston you hear next to nothing about him. A true magician in stickhandling and skating, he had a great wrister with a quick release.

Really, he was something to behold.

 

[BubbaBoot]

Middleton highlights:

 

[crobro]

phil housley

why he is not in the hall of fame is a mystery to me

1982–83 Buffalo Sabres NHL 77 19 47 66 39 10 3 4 7 2
1983–84 Buffalo Sabres NHL 75 31 46 77 33 3 0 0 0 6
1984–85 Buffalo Sabres NHL 73 16 53 69 28 5 3 2 5 2
1985–86 Buffalo Sabres NHL 79 15 47 62 54 — — — — —
1986–87 Buffalo Sabres NHL 78 21 46 67 57 — — — — —
1987–88 Buffalo Sabres NHL 74 29 37 66 96 6 2 4 6 6
1988–89 Buffalo Sabres NHL 72 26 44 70 47 5 1 3 4 2
1989–90 Buffalo Sabres NHL 80 21 60 81 32 6 1 4 5 4
1990–91 Winnipeg Jets NHL 78 23 53 76 24 — — — — —
1991–92 Winnipeg Jets NHL 74 23 63 86 92 7 1 4 5 0
1992–93 Winnipeg Jets NHL 80 18 79 97 52 6 0 7 7 2
1993–94 St. Louis Blues NHL 26 7 15 22 12 4 2 1 3 4
1994–95 Calgary Flames NHL 43 8 35 43 18 7 0 9 9 0
1995–96 Calgary Flames NHL 59 16 36 52 22 — — — — —
1995–96 New Jersey Devils NHL 22 1 15 16 8 — — — — —
1996–97 Washington Capitals NHL 77 11 29 40 24 — — — — —
1997–98 Washington Capitals NHL 64 6 25 31 24 18 0 4 4 4
1998–99 Calgary Flames NHL 79 11 43 54 52 — — — — —
1999–00 Calgary Flames NHL 78 11 44 55 24 — — — — —
2000–01 Calgary Flames NHL 69 4 30 34 24 — — — — —
2001–02 Chicago Blackhawks NHL 80 15 24 39 34 5 0 1 1 4
2002–03 Chicago Blackhawks NHL 57 6 23 29 24 — — — — —
2002–03 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 1 0 0 0 0 3 0 0 0 0

 

[avs1986]

I haven't seen this list, but how many guys do they list as honourable mentions or whatever? It's not like Stastny is exactly in the discussion with Gretzky and Lemieux for the best centre ever.

Yes, of course I know he is not in the same tier as those two...as for the list, it just gives a top 20 for that position, no honourable mentions.

 

[mobilus]

Dale Hawerchuk

 

[BlacknGold77*]

Marcotte and Fred Stanfield were two important cogs for the Bruins and never got a lot of credit, overshadowed by the flashier and/or crazier teammates.....Eddie Westfall too.

Rick Middleton is one of the most underrated wingers in the game. He's 5th among RWers in goal scorers not in the Hof. Only Jagr, Selanne, Recchi and Iginla are ahead of him, and yet, outside of Boston you hear next to nothing about him. A true magician in stickhandling and skating, he had a great wrister with a quick release.

Really, he was something to behold.

Middleton for me as well.

Really, you need to consider the fact that his career was cut short by an injury. He took a puck to the head in practice which cost him at least 3 more seasons playing at a high level. His last season before the injury he scored 31 G

He finished with 448 G, 540 A, 988 PTS, but did it in only 1,005 games!

If he doesn't take the puck to the head, he easily tops 500 goals and 1,000 pts.

And on top of all of that, there wasn't a single defender in the 80s that he couldn't make look ridiculous 1 on 1

 

[Killion]

Really, he was something to behold.

No question Bubba, Ricky Middleton had the wheels' & killer instinct around the net. A Toronto native & thus "natural" Bostonian the guy was the personification of "lunch pail" or "hard hat" tenacity. A real throwback to the likes of O'Reilly & Bucyk. Sort of bitter coffee & cream with lumps in it. One H. E. double 'L' of a Money Player. One of the last best Old Schoolers.

 

[Axxellien]

Bathgate in New York:

Andy Bathgate. He was on some terrible teams with the Rangers. Finally did win his Cup with Toronto in 1964 though. But here is a guy who was neck and neck for a number of years with Howe for points. Observe.

Point leaders from 1955-'56 to 1963-'64:

Howe - 704
Bathgate - 702
Beliveau - 672

Unfreakin believable is all I have to say about that.

..Bathgate played on some very respectable, dynamic editions of the Rangers in the mid to late 1950s stilted towards offense perhaps..Prentice, Popein, Hebenton..Camille Henry..Creighton,.. Danny Lewicki...Good Players..Great Teams

 

[Ogopogo*]

yea the same magazine that already ranks crosby better than sundin, modano, francis and hawerchuk.

Crosby is already better than those players.

 

[#66]

Larry Murphy
guy was money

And better defensively than most give him credit for. He came along during and age of rushing defenseman and IMO was OK at it. His game was at its best when he could pass the puck up ice and join the play instead of leading the rush. He was flat out outstanding during his time with the Pens and Red Wings.

I would like to give Reed Larsson a mention. Great skills and one of the best slappers I've ever seen while playing for some pretty bad Wings teams.