Would you sign a petition to replace Ken Holland?

[Mount Suribachi]

Holland does not even draft well.

He used a no. 1 pick on Sheahan, who is a journeyman.

What an idiotic list Seriously, cherry picking players from years of Ken Hollands drafting?

You do realise that if a team gets 2 NHL players from a draft, they consider it a success?

You do realise that if an team gets 3 NHL players from a draft they consider it a runaway success?

You do realise that ~50% of players drafted in the 20-30 range never establish themselves in the NHL?

You do realise that most of the players drafted in the 20-30 range who make it to the NHL go onto be "average" players of the calibre of Smith and Sheahan?

Just to use the top name on your list. Riley Sheahan (who by the way is NOT a journeyman, having only played for one team). Lets take the next 10 players drafted after him shall we? Only 2 of the 10 have played more NHL games to this point than Sheahan - Charlie Coyle, and Brock Nelson, both of whom have had similar careers to Sheahan at this point, being 30-40 point players.
The ONLY player taken with the next 10 picks that is clearly better than Sheahan that you can accuse Holland of missing out on is Kuznetzov, and that's only because he's just had a breakout season, I wonder how many would have said that 12 months ago.

I could do the same with every other player on your list, but I can't be bothered. You complain about Jurco, yet only 5 (FIVE!) players taken in the 2nd round that year have played more games than him, and yet you still complain about it. I don't think you have any clue about the odds of a late 1st or 2nd rounder being a quality NHLer.

There are many things we can be critical of Holland about, drafting and development (up till the point they should be in the NHL) isn't one of them. Neither is RFA contracts.

On the other hand - trades, the unwillingness to make trades, over-reliance on vets, over loyalty to vets who need to be ditched, too many NMC's, contract lengths and his whole ultra-conservative approach. Yes, we can be critical of them.

 

[Flowah]

Holland definitely can draft forwards. He has an, I think, obvious problem finding d-men.

 

[BamaWing]

Yea I'd sign it. It should be Stevie Y which there's no way we shouldn't be able to make it happen. You give him a blank piece of paper and say write down what it takes. Whoever needs to make things right with him you make it happen.

Say Yzerman declines, Nill went to Dallas and pulled off more meaningful trades in 2 weeks than Holland has in nearly 10 years. There would be numerous GMs who would want to be the GM of the Red Wings.

The Detroit Red Wings do not have to "stand pat" with a GM that is clearly past his best years. We have too many bad contracts and not enough talent to just sit back and say well we can't just make change to make a change. We do have to make a change. There's going to be a rebuild in some ways because of the Z, Abby, Kronwall, etc. contracts. Not moving on from Holland just simply makes the process longer. That's it.

 

[BamaWing]

Holland definitely can draft forwards. He has an, I think, obvious problem finding d-men.

can he though? I mean we have a good crop of forwards and I'm not arguing that. The team needs to get better at NA scouting. We need more balance of a team. It's like we just look up "players from Michigan" and "super small skilled wingers"

 

[PullHard]

It definitely does this decade.

I might write a Simpsons x Ken Holland comparison essay

They came on the scene and dominated for a decade or so ... and ever since the fans have been disappointed

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Just for fun; let's have the detractors submit the moves they currently would like to see in the next 2 years (draft, trade, FA). We'll revisit and compare actual moves to the whims of the fans and see who knows more how to build a NHL team.

I know all the critics of the draft record wanted Pavelski, Subban and Keith in their respective years, right?

That's unfair, though. We don't have to be better GMs than Holland personally to hold him to a certain standard. I don't have to personally be a draft expert to want a GM who can actually draft some defensemen who'll pan out.

Besides, what's so insidious about Holland is that he always looks like he's got some reasonable mid-term plan, and then 5 years later you realize nothing really happened, no trades were made, and the team is just worse every year. Perception of Holland's genius aside, it might not actually be that difficult to beat his track record lately. Particularly if you aren't impressed with first round losses.

 

[jkutswings]

That's unfair, though. We don't have to be better GMs than Holland personally to hold him to a certain standard. I don't have to personally be a draft expert to want a GM who can actually draft some defensemen who'll pan out.

Besides, what's so insidious about Holland is that he always looks like he's got some reasonable mid-term plan, and then 5 years later you realize nothing really happened, no trades were made, and the team is just worse every year. Perception of Holland's genius aside, it might not actually be that difficult to beat his track record lately. Particularly if you aren't impressed with first round losses.

Agreed, but to indulge the notion, I'd burn it down ASAP:

Trade Datsyuk's contract for whatever you can get
Trade and/or cut Zetterberg and Kronwall
Don't bring back Richards or Quincey or Miller
Helm is a question mark, depending on negotiations
Start the kids. And stink. For a few years.

Now I'm not pretending that's an attractive situation. But what I REALLY wanted to do was trade one or both of The Eurotwins after the Chicago series, when they still had real value. The lethal handcuff is that Holland loves to simultaneously reward his own players perpetually, and hand out no trade clauses like they're candy. There is no law saying that any player the Wings draft has to retire a Red Wing, and the practice is absolutely killing their flexibility.

Going forward, if I could model the Detroit Red Wings after one other professional sports franchise, it would be the New England Patriots in the NFL. You perform, or you're gone. Loyalty extends as far as you help the franchise contend for a championship.

 

[Tatar]

Holland does not even draft well.

He used a no. 1 pick on Sheahan, who is a journeyman.

He used a no. 1 pick on Smith, who is a chronic underachiever.

He used a no. 1 pick on Jacob Kindl, who was a complete bust.

He used a no. 1 pick on Thomas McCollum, who has not made it to the NHL! Are you kidding me? A no. 1 pick who never made it to the NHL?

He used a no. 2 pick on Abdelkaer, who is a grinder, when he could have selected Oshie.

He used a no. 2 pick on Cory Emmerton, who was a complete bust.

He used a no. 2 pick on Martin Frk, who has not yet made it to the NHL.

He used a no. 2 pick on Dick Axelsson, who never made it to the NHL.

He used a no. 2 pick on Landon Ferraro, whom the Wings eventually waived. Ferraro is now with the Bruins.

He used a no. 2 pick on Thomas Jurco. Jurco played in 44 games this season and scored 6 points. 6 points from a no. 2 pick!

These examples are enough to show that Ken Holland does not draft well. Either the Wings have a terrible scouting staff, or Holland is a terrible judge of hockey talent.

Hindsight is 20/20. I don't like Holland as a post-cap GM, but his drafting has been great. Really it's been the only reason we've made the playoffs the past two years.

That said I'm still pissed he didn't trade up for K.Connor

 

[Yemack]

Going forward, if I could model the Detroit Red Wings after one other professional sports franchise, it would be the New England Patriots in the NFL. You perform, or you're gone. Loyalty extends as far as you help the franchise contend for a championship.

I agree. The old model worked in the time when Wings could afford to get talents through free agency. However, it's a new world and Wings need to wake up and smell the coffee. This is a dog eat dog world where every team needs to reinvent themselves ever more every season, all the while it's getting harder to get talent. The whole system needs a thorough reexamination.

However, I dont think it needs to be as cutthroat as you put it. I think loyalty is still a very important aspect of a winning team or should I say an illusion of loyalty. New England Pats have it easy in that regard. People want to associate themselves with winner. When you are successful, it's not hard to gather a loyal following. Team based sports athletes are especially conditioned to be loyal throughout their upbringing.

 

[Mount Suribachi]

Going forward, if I could model the Detroit Red Wings after one other professional sports franchise, it would be the New England Patriots in the NFL. You perform, or you're gone. Loyalty extends as far as you help the franchise contend for a championship.

The irony is, back in the late noughties, Holland would specifically reference the New England model as the one he was trying to emulate - pay to keep your star players, don't overpay for support players, have a steady stream of cheap young talent coming through to fill the gaps left by the support players you don't re-sign.

 

[Classicnamesup]

When you have to brag about Jurco, I don't think the drafting is that strong.

 

[Bench]

I might write a Simpsons x Ken Holland comparison essay

They came on the scene and dominated for a decade or so ... and ever since the fans have been disappointed

At least we still have the monorail to sooth our disappointment, right? I haven't kept up with how that turned out.

 

[Mount Suribachi]

When you have to brag about Jurco, I don't think the drafting is that strong.

Who's bragging? One poster tried to argue that the drafting of Jurco was a failure by KH, I tried to point out that he was actually the 6th most successful pick in the 2nd round, with some context about how few 2nd rounders amount to much.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

At least we still have the monorail to sooth our disappointment, right? I haven't kept up with how that turned out.

I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrook! And by gum, did it put them on the map.


Also, I meant the 2010's in reference to Holland being terrible this decade, not literally the last 10 years.

 

[Birko19]

I put undecided but in hindsight, I think I would vote no. If we had someone like Nill or Yzerman still in our system I would be ok with losing Holland, but I don't see anyone available in this organization or around the league taking over and doing a better job at the moment.

 

[Classicnamesup]

Who's bragging? One poster tried to argue that the drafting of Jurco was a failure by KH, I tried to point out that he was actually the 6th most successful pick in the 2nd round, with some context about how few 2nd rounders amount to much.

Well he can't even get games in the NHL so if thats a success

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Well he can't even get games in the NHL so if thats a success

Not going to brag on the Jurco selection, but to date somebody already mentioned it that he has the sixth best resume in terms of second rounders that year.

I think his back is a big problem. Had a strong start, got hurt and has disappeared. I thought he actually played well at times this year, but man his confidence appears to be totally shot and what made him pretty good out of the start has gone away in terms of his physicality.

Jurco is going to have to make the athletes nightmare decision if he wants to remain in the NHL. He will have to put his body on the line and see if it holds up if he wants another contract. It might give out which is unfortunate to say the least. But I really don't see many other options for him, if he wants to continue to play in the league he is going to have to return to the player he was when he first came up and that requires taking and giving a lot more punishment. He could make a good living back in Europe if he wants to be a more perimeter player and get more time off to take care of his issues. Tough choice for him.

 

[waltdetroit]

Holland knew they were ending the compensation for mgt folks. He should have traded himself to TML for a 3rd...

 

[Mount Suribachi]

Not going to brag on the Jurco selection, but to date somebody already mentioned it that he has the sixth best resume in terms of second rounders that year.

I think his back is a big problem. Had a strong start, got hurt and has disappeared. I thought he actually played well at times this year, but man his confidence appears to be totally shot and what made him pretty good out of the start has gone away in terms of his physicality.

Jurco is going to have to make the athletes nightmare decision if he wants to remain in the NHL. He will have to put his body on the line and see if it holds up if he wants another contract. It might give out which is unfortunate to say the least. But I really don't see many other options for him, if he wants to continue to play in the league he is going to have to return to the player he was when he first came up and that requires taking and giving a lot more punishment. He could make a good living back in Europe if he wants to be a more perimeter player and get more time off to take care of his issues. Tough choice for him.

And lets not forget, at the time this board was delighted when we managed to snag him in the 2nd round, and up until 12-18 months ago we were all very high on him. I'm not ready to give up on him yet, he's cleary wayyyy too good for the AHL (compare him to the likes of Andersson, Kindl and Cleary when they cleared waivers and went to GR), he just needs to figure out how to be successful in the NHL.

 

[InjuredChoker]

not all picks are going to pan out. sometimes the pick is good and make a lot of sense but it just didn't work out for a variety of reasons. it happens.

overall the wings draft history when it comes to forwards and goalies is pretty damn good. even overall though when it comes to dman only, it's pretty bad. hard to be good when you don't pick them. wings

and only handful of players get picked very year. not only is there a lot of luck involved when it comes to draft pick success, lot of luck is involved in how the draft goes too. maybe team had certain player ranked #5 in their draft board, but he went in 20s and became all star. but they didn't have pick in the 1st round. maybe some other team took him and was actually disappointed that they had to settle for a guy who was #19 in their draft board.

 

[odin1981]

And lets not forget, at the time this board was delighted when we managed to snag him in the 2nd round, and up until 12-18 months ago we were all very high on him. I'm not ready to give up on him yet, he's cleary wayyyy too good for the AHL (compare him to the likes of Andersson, Kindl and Cleary when they cleared waivers and went to GR), he just needs to figure out how to be successful in the NHL.

How does he get that if he never plays? He has to play to improve but he doesn't get to play more than once every 5-6 games or so. And when he plays he gets 8 mins on the 4th line.

 

[Classicnamesup]

I'm just not seeing this great drafting. We are great at drafting forwards and yet this team is desperately starved for offence. Imagine how bad it would be if they weren't great at drafting forwards

 

[Claypool]

I'm just not seeing this great drafting. We are great at drafting forwards and yet this team is desperately starved for offence. Imagine how bad it would be if they weren't great at drafting forwards

The forwards can't score because they spend their entire shift digging the puck out of their own zone or the defense can't get the puck through from the point.

 

[Shaman464]

The forwards can't score because they spend their entire shift digging the puck out of their own zone or the defense can't get the puck through from the point.

If you put any stock into Corsi then what you're saying isn't true. They had possession of the puck, but their ability to score was something abysmal like low single percentage.

 

[HockeyinHD]

If you put any stock into Corsi then what you're saying isn't true. They had possession of the puck, but their ability to score was something abysmal like low single percentage.

There's possession, and then there's effective possession. If a team is handling the puck int he offensive zone, but all the passes are in on the feet and the team can't settle into a system where a viable shot chance can be generated... possession isn't particularly important, and that's exactly the kind of possession the Wings have had this year.

When I watch other higher-level playoff teams, it's night and day with regards to the accuracy of neutral and offensive zone passes compared to Detroit. It's not exactly fair, but watching the Chicago St. Louis game, you saw passes going from stick to stick, specifically in a way that allowed the receiver to be offensively threatening as soon as the puck got to him.

This year, Detroit hasn't been able to do that much at ES or on the PP. Their passes are either off target and possession is lost or it's a pass right into the skates of players so they have to fish the puck out to get it on their stick and in an offensive posture. By then, poof, their space in the offensive zone is lost and they have to hurry a pass out... which is, of course, right into some other guys skates and the cycle begins anew.

Detroit was startlingly bad at that this year, all year. Jarringly, nails-on-chalkboard bad, and bad from the blue line to the forwards. Maybe it was a spacing and system-knowledge thing (I hope), but it was bad all year and never improved at all.