Would you rather have this Leafs or Jets group of four young forwards?

Which group would you take?


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zeke

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Mar 14, 2005
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All righty then…

His average is second line competition, which generally means top lines at home and 3rd lines on the road.
lowryad93
[

I've shown where his opponents' ice time ranks him.


Again though real differences in competition between NHL players are simply to small to have much impact on their overall performance over the course of a season. (Single games or series can be a different matter!)

The single biggest failure of the hockey analytics movement is this irrational belief, and has led to all of their biggest gaffes.

It simply isn't true. And any belief that it is true is simply a matter of using stats which don't appreciate the actual difference.

It’s easier to get a player "tough matchups" when the other team doesn’t care. IOW they say "you want to play him against my top line? Ok I can live with that, lets go."
Dion Phaneuf routinely had the toughest competition in the NHL when he was with the Leafs. Part of that is because he was all the Leafs had, the other was that the other teams didn’t care about avoiding the matchup. He didn’t suddenly become a more effective player when he was shipped off to Ottawa.

This makes no sense. Lowry plays Center, why would you flip him with a Wing like Connor or Wheeler?
Lowry plays a relatively low event game, which is great for defensive, not as good for production. If you flipped Lowry for a C like Scheifele, you’d likely see sigher better possession numbers but reduced production making it a net-negative.

Are you saying that Hyman has skills that let him succeed on a top line, while Lowry doesn't? Isn't this something which should be credited to Hyman and not to Lowry?


They don’t match the Jets top line. That little detail aside, hockey is a strong link game and there are diminishing returns for adding another top player to a line.

They not only match the Jets' top line - they better it.



The way to maximize your roster is to spread your top players around and fit in roll players where the things they can provide do the most good.
In the case of Hyman he’s a good puck retriever, but doesn’t bring much else to the table but that provides a lot of value when paired with 2 good offensive players. It’s have much less value if you tried to play him on a 3rd or 4th line.

So (in your opinion) Hyman brings more to a 1st line, and Lowry brings more to a 3rd line.

Is this supposed to be a criticism against Hyman?
 

Walt22

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Mar 19, 2018
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You're all over the map, please point out where I said goal scoring was the standard.

You Jets fans are the ones harping about centres being automatically better than wingers. Matthews is a centre, Nylander has played centre and probably will in the future. All 3 Leafs are capable of driving their own lines. The 3 Jets you listed are passengers aside from maybe Ehlers.

You are the one who brought up the team forward groups and how the Jets are so much better because of Wheeler, Schiefele, etc. Why would I not bring up any of the other Leafs forwards or are you saying the entirety of the Jets forward groups combined are better than Matthews, Marner, Nylander? Please explain. Also there are two 30 goal scorers on the Jets.

Matthews This Season 61 points, 1.00 PPG
Matthews Career 130 points, 0.91 PPG

Marner This Season 69 points, 0.85 PPG
Marner Career 130 points, 0.83 PPG

Nylander This Season 60 points, 0.75 PPG
Nylander Career 134 points, 0.73 PPG

Laine This Season 69 points, 0.85 PPG
Laine Career 133 points, 0.86 PPG

Connor This Season 56 points, 0.75 PPG
Connor Career 61 points, 0.64 PPG

Ehlers This Season 60 points, 0.75 PPG
Ehlers Career 162 points, 0.69 PPG

Average Age:
Leafs 21 years 1 month
Jets 21 years 2 months
(I know you Jets fans like going to the month because it makes such a difference)

Total Points:
Leafs 394
Jets 356

Career PPG:
Leafs 0.81
Jets 0.73

All stats heavily favour the Leafs.

*cue manipulating of elaborate stats to somehow shows the Jets players are better
When comparing young guns were you not the one that said the leafs have 3 30 goal players on separate lines...luke that somehow trumps 3 young guns that have 30 goals this year? Why no word on their goals on your comparison? If scoring 30 goals can be done by any "passenger" why don't the leafs go out and find some passengers? Guess they don't have the real players that can drive those passengers around....otherwise 22 goal passengers would 've 30 goal passengers for them.

Also enjoy they swing on average ppg. Does that make the 36 year old accountant Scott foster the best goalie in nhl history with a 0.00 gaa in his career?

Face it... 44+30+29 >>>> 34+22+22

That is +25 More goals by the jets and one is a rookie, one is 19 years old. Speaks for itself.
 

Yackiberg8

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Mar 11, 2016
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When comparing young guns were you not the one that said the leafs have 3 30 goal players on separate lines...luke that somehow trumps 3 young guns that have 30 goals this year? Why no word on their goals on your comparison? If scoring 30 goals can be done by any "passenger" why don't the leafs go out and find some passengers? Guess they don't have the real players that can drive those passengers around....otherwise 22 goal passengers would 've 30 goal passengers for them.

Also enjoy they swing on average ppg. Does that make the 36 year old accountant Scott foster the best goalie in nhl history with a 0.00 gaa in his career?

Face it... 44+30+29 >>>> 34+22+22

That is +25 More goals by the jets and one is a rookie, one is 19 years old. Speaks for itself.

That's not correct no. If you look back I brought up the 30 goal scorers on different lines after you wanted to compare the forward groups for the entire teams.

The Leafs do have the passenger players. They are JVR and Marleau. Leafs have 3 players with more than 30 goals and 6 players with more than 20 goals. The Jets can't say either of those things. Matthews and Laine have scored at equal rates this season 0.54 GPG each, Matthews would be above 40 with Laine if he was healthy all year.

You are comparing someone who has faced 7 shots in their career to a combined 485 NHL GP. That makes a lot of sense.

I'll take the 3 young line drivers who are the core pieces of the team and fill in passenger goal scorers with veterans rather than vice versa for the Jets (aside from Ehlers who I am a big fan of).
 

Peggy

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Aug 6, 2016
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That's not correct no. If you look back I brought up the 30 goal scorers on different lines after you wanted to compare the forward groups for the entire teams.

The Leafs do have the passenger players. They are JVR and Marleau. Leafs have 3 players with more than 30 goals and 6 players with more than 20 goals. The Jets can't say either of those things. Matthews and Laine have scored at equal rates this season 0.54 GPG each, Matthews would be above 40 with Laine if he was healthy all year.

You are comparing someone who has faced 7 shots in their career to a combined 485 NHL GP. That makes a lot of sense.

I'll take the 3 young line drivers who are the core pieces of the team and fill in passenger goal scorers with veterans rather than vice versa for the Jets (aside from Ehlers who I am a big fan of).

sounds like just a bunch of opinions and what ifs

I'll take the team that's 2nd in the league with 51 wins
 
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Walt22

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That's not correct no. If you look back I brought up the 30 goal scorers on different lines after you wanted to compare the forward groups for the entire teams.

The Leafs do have the passenger players. They are JVR and Marleau. Leafs have 3 players with more than 30 goals and 6 players with more than 20 goals. The Jets can't say either of those things. Matthews and Laine have scored at equal rates this season 0.54 GPG each, Matthews would be above 40 with Laine if he was healthy all year.

You are comparing someone who has faced 7 shots in their career to a combined 485 NHL GP. That makes a lot of sense.

I'll take the 3 young line drivers who are the core pieces of the team and fill in passenger goal scorers with veterans rather than vice versa for the Jets (aside from Ehlers who I am a big fan of).
Funny a lot of matthews would have done this if he played all the games.....nylander would be a center if....if marner scored at the rate that he is now......come back when matthews has scored more goals than laine, or nylander and marner out score our 30 goal rookie. Till then they are just players who have no finish and can't do what players are paid to do score. Always excuses with leaf fans. He'll I can say I could have played in the NHL if I could skate backwards. Ahhh.. and I could play center like nylander....
 

Yackiberg8

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Funny a lot of matthews would have done this if he played all the games.....nylander would be a center if....if marner scored at the rate that he is now......come back when matthews has scored more goals than laine, or nylander and marner out score our 30 goal rookie. Till then they are just players who have no finish and can't do what players are paid to do score. Always excuses with leaf fans. He'll I can say I could have played in the NHL if I could skate backwards. Ahhh.. and I could play center like nylander....

[mod]

Matthews outscored Laine last year. Was hurt this year so you can be proud of that one.

Nylander has played centre this year and will likely be playing there next year. (None of the Jets players are centres anyway so not sure your point)

All 3 have outscored the 3 Jets by a large margin. Way better offensive players. Look at the numbers I posted earlier. Laine and Connor can't produce their own offense.

I assume you think Connor is a better player than both Wheeler and Schiefele right? Good logic there.
 
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lomiller1

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Jan 13, 2015
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I've shown where his opponents' ice time ranks him.
You claimed he was facing third line competition I demonstrated that to be false.

The single biggest failure of the hockey analytics movement is this irrational belief, and has led to all of their biggest gaffes.

Sorry, but you are clueless. When people first started looking at this more then a decade ago QoC was one of the first things they tackled. It was dumped because when they did the math it turned out QoC was irrelevant. You are not doing some new groundbreaking work, you are trying to re-invent the square wheel and lack the ability to even begin understanding why you are wrong.

It simply isn't true. And any belief that it is true is simply a matter of using stats which don't appreciate the actual difference.

It's not "belief" it's math.

So (in your opinion) Hyman brings more to a 1st line, and Lowry brings more to a 3rd line.
I said Lowry brings less to an offensive line than Scheifele. I'm not sure why you think you can just swap Hyman for Scheifele (perhaps the same reason you think Hyman is "comparable to Wheeler"?)

In terms of value, Lowry is a big physical Center who drives a dominant defensive line, something few teams have but every team wants. Hyman is a spare part you try and use wherever you can. The former has great value the latter is a dime a dozen, something every team has
 
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Walt22

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[mod]

Matthews outscored Laine last year. Was hurt this year so you can be proud of that one.

Nylander has played centre this year and will likely be playing there next year. (None of the Jets players are centres anyway so not sure your point)

All 3 have outscored the 3 Jets by a large margin. Way better offensive players. Look at the numbers I posted earlier. Laine and Connor can't produce their own offense.

I assume you think Connor is a better player than both Wheeler and Schiefele right? Good logic there.
So you are saying matthews outscoring laine last year by 4 goals makes him better? So we now agree that goals are the measuring stick? You should really pick one and stick to it.

Nylander will likely play center....like I said come back when he does it full time. Our guys scored 30 goals, your guys would like to score 30....they haven't.

Hockey players get paid to put the puck in the net. Your guys have to get points off of the old guys scoring...our young guys can do that by themselves. How come Connor got 3 points the other night vs montreal? We sat all our vets...but he gets 3 points???? There goes that theory. Any more stories you wentbto make up?
 
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Yackiberg8

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So you are saying matthews outscoring laine last year by 4 goals makes him better? So we now agree that goals are the measuring stick? You should really pick one and stick to it.

Nylander will likely play center....like I said come back when he does it full time. Our guys scored 30 goals, your guys would like to score 30....they haven't.

Hockey players get paid to put the puck in the net. Your guys have to get points off of the old guys scoring...our young guys can do that by themselves. How come Connor got 3 points the other night vs montreal? We sat all our vets...but he gets 3 points???? There goes that theory. Any more stories you wentbto make up?

Lol and again you are out to lunch. You said Matthews has never had more goals than Laine so I simply pointed out that he did just last year.

So it's true that you think Connor is a better player than Wheeler and Schiefele? Very interesting, I wonder if your fellow Jet fans will agree with this. Seems like a load of you know what to me.
 

Romang67

BitterSwede
Jan 2, 2011
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But you simply aren't giving Hyman his proper due. At even strength this year he has pretty much been Blake Wheeler.
Somewhere around here is when you should have stopped, done a double take, and questioned whether there may be something wrong with your analysis. Personally, I'm glad that you just trucked ahead and ignored this, because it gave us this gem.
 
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Weezeric

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Jan 27, 2015
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Could someone explain to me why hyman was included in this list of "young, depth players" and scheifele was not considering they are the same age and both play on top lines...?????

...I mean other than trying to boost the leafs chances in this poll
 

Yackiberg8

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Could someone explain to me why hyman was included in this list of "young, depth players" and scheifele was not considering they are the same age and both play on top lines...?????

...I mean other than trying to boost the leafs chances in this poll

Hmmm maybe because Hyman is a depth player and not a star player and Schiefele is a star player or do you think he should be considered a depth forward?
 

Walt22

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Mar 19, 2018
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Lol and again you are out to lunch. You said Matthews has never had more goals than Laine so I simply pointed out that he did just last year.

So it's true that you think Connor is a better player than Wheeler and Schiefele? Very interesting, I wonder if your fellow Jet fans will agree with this. Seems like a load of you know what to me.
You really need to learn to read. I will give you the benefit of doubt cause obviously education is not your strong point so I will make it clear. Laine has 44 goals. When has matthews scores 44 goals. I am assuming peewee will be your answer but take your shot.
 

Yackiberg8

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You really need to learn to read. I will give you the benefit of doubt cause obviously education is not your strong point so I will make it clear. Laine has 44 goals. When has matthews scores 44 goals. I am assuming peewee will be your answer but take your shot.

I don't want to get personal but you are the one who has been speaking in broken English the entire time.

Matthews had more goals than Laine last year.....you said he never had more goals than Laine.

You are dodging the question about you thinking Connor is better than Wheeler and Schiefele, does this mean you know your logic of whoever scores more goals is the better player is foolish?
 

Walt22

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Mar 19, 2018
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I don't want to get personal but you are the one who has been speaking in broken English the entire time.

Matthews had more goals than Laine last year.....you said he never had more goals than Laine.

You are dodging the question about you thinking Connor is better than Wheeler and Schiefele, does this mean you know your logic of whoever scores more goals is the better player is foolish?
44 goals...at 19 years old...will never be passed by matthews. He peaked at 40 and is now glass. Doubt he plays a full season. Hopefully that makes it easier for you.
 

Weezeric

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Jan 27, 2015
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Hmmm maybe because Hyman is a depth player and not a star player and Schiefele is a star player or do you think he should be considered a depth forward?

How can that be? A leaf fan in this very thread just said hyman=Blake wheeler!!
 

FlappyGiraffe

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No one’s claiming Lowry is the Jets #1 centre. He doesn’t play the most minutes, or exclusively against top lines. Of course his QoC is going to be less than Kopitar’s. The Jets have their own top 6 who deserve ice time, they’re not going to leave Scheifele on the bench and give Lowry 22 minutes per game.

Even so, Lowry’s line (which usually includes Copp, and sometimes Armia) has often been used in a shutdown role against top lines, at least since the Flyers game in November when Maurice figured out how good they were at that. The Jets are so committed to line matching with Lowry at home that his line often gets the first shift of the game. On the road, opposition coaches seem to avoid Lowry’s line whenever possible, so they face mostly 3rd and 4th liners in that situation.

Lowry’s overall stats for QoC for the year would be higher if Maurice had put him in the shutdown role earlier than November, if opponents didn’t keep their top lines away from his when the Jets are on the road, and if Lowry hadn’t missed about half the games due to injury since his line got the shutdown role (while Lowry was out, Copp centred that line, and did OK but not as well).

That’s all just to address the QoC question. When you say:



...that’s true enough for his usage.

But Lowry’s results have been far better than a typical 3rd line centre. Here are SKATR charts comparing Lowry to the first 3 names on your list of “the middle of the 3rd line centres”: Bonino, Dubinsky and Henrique.





Anyone who cares enough about hockey stats to fire up Corsica and scroll through the QoC rankings should take one look at those charts and let out low whistle: Lowry is miles better than the rest of his competition here, especially defensively.

Here’s a more direct Leafs comparison, Bozak vs Lowry:


Again, Lowry dominates the comparison, especially defensively. Bozak is getting almost all offensive zone starts, and Lowry defensive zone starts, but Lowry produces almost as many shots for and way fewer shots against. Talk about tilting the ice. I’ll repeat myself: if the Leafs has a bottom 6 centre like Adam Lowry, we’d never hear the end of it.

And while he’s done that work against mostly bottom 6 opposition, Lowry’s been similarly successful against top lines whenever he’s had the chance, including Giroux in the Flyers game in November, or Bergeron last month.

Putting his performance in context — Lowry’s a bottom 6 centre — shouldn’t minimize his accomplishment — he’s been a shutdown beast this year. He’s one of the best CF% and xGF% players in the league, that’s not all because he’s playing against bottom 6 forwards.

There is zero evidence — none whatsoever — that Hyman or any of the Leafs is in Lowry’s league when it comes to playing effectively in a defensive role.

You can give Hyman some credit for the offensive success of Matthews line (most Leaf fans I’ve read here think he’s an anchor), but that line bleeds shots and scoring attempts against. Hyman works hard and forechecks effectively, but that isn’t translating into defensive success.

I don’t think Lowry would have any trouble crashing the boards and forechecking on Matthews wing, and he’d score a few more points just from puck retrieval. But I don’t think there’s any realistic chance that Hyman could play with Copp and Tanev and produce the kind of shot and scoring chance suppression Lowry has this year.

And since the poll is about “depth forwards”, not complementary forechecking 1st line wingers, Lowry is easily the better choice here.
just gonna bump this, it seems all the leafs homers just ignored it but it pretty much settles any debate that Lowry is the best player in this poll by far.
 
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zeke

The Dube Abides
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You claimed he was facing third line competition I demonstrated that to be false.

The numbers are precise and specific. Lowry has faced 3rd line competition this year.



Sorry, but you are clueless. When people first started looking at this more then a decade ago QoC was one of the first things they tackled. It was dumped because when they did the math it turned out QoC was irrelevant. You are not doing some new groundbreaking work, you are trying to re-invent the square wheel and lack the ability to even begin understanding why you are wrong.

Yes, the analytics community counterintuitivetly wanted to believe that quality of competition didn't matter. they hilariously used cfqoc to try and assess this without realizing that doing this cancelled itself out. they similarly dismissed toiqoc without realizing that their metric didn't appreciate the actual difference toi waa showing them.

unfortunately, their irrational and mistaken dismissal of qoc led to all of their most embarassing mistakes, and unfortunately for all of us who appreciate the value of analytics they discredited these wonderful stats via their own hubris.



It's not "belief" it's math.

it's a belief that led to poor math.

As you can see, if we ignore qoc, analytics say Hyman is better than the jets' 1st liners.


I said Lowry brings less to an offensive line than Scheifele. I'm not sure why you think you can just swap Hyman for Scheifele (perhaps the same reason you think Hyman is "comparable to Wheeler"?)

In terms of value, Lowry is a big physical Center who drives a dominant defensive line, something few teams have but every team wants. Hyman is a spare part you try and use wherever you can. The former has great value the latter is a dime a dozen, something every team has

Fact: Hyman is a productive and positive contributor to one of the best even strength lines in hockey..

none of your claims are supported by the math you claim is relevant.
 

zeke

The Dube Abides
Mar 14, 2005
66,937
36,957
Somewhere around here is when you should have stopped, done a double take, and questioned whether there may be something wrong with your analysis. Personally, I'm glad that you just trucked ahead and ignored this, because it gave us this gem.

somewhere around here you should have realized that hyman has as many non-pp points as laine, done a double take, and pondered your analysis of hyman. and his linemates.
 

zeke

The Dube Abides
Mar 14, 2005
66,937
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Try using some common sense...

If you can't decipher that Blake Wheeler is a better player than Zach Hyman you need to give your head a shake.

now ask yourself how is it possible that a crap player like hyman is producing similar even strength stats as the great blake wheeler.
 

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